[Voodooblaster]

Hi all TBhpians

Wish to pick your brains for a Car Purchase

A colleague of mine owns a 12 year old Swift Dezire(Petrol MT). It has munched over 1.10 lac kms and is in the market for a new car. Place of purchase is Trivandrum, Kerala. As of now the family members primarily using the car will be my Colleague, Spouse and their 3 year old kid

The Requirements

1)With the burgeoning traffic, only AT is being considered.

2)Vehicle will see approx 10 to 12k usage per year, hence only petrol engines are being considered. In either case the higher acquisition and maintain cost excludes decent diesels in this budget

3) Initial budget was 10 lacs OTR, but seeing that will entail losing a lot of nice cars/variants has been reluctantly bumped up to 13 to 14 lac range. 14 lacs includes Trade in value of old car

4) It'll be the only car in their garage and is expected to be used for a decade. Hence Reliable and fuss free ownership is needed

5) 70% use will be in city. The rest will be through the chaotic and unforgiving undivided highways (?) of southern and middle Kerala

6) EV's are not under consideration for now, though the recent TATA Tiago makes a compelling argument. Waiting for the tech to mature a bit. Maybe the next purchase

7) What will be fair value of a 11 year old Swift Desire Vxi that has 1.10 kms under its belt in Trivandrum? The car is mechanically sound The tyres will last another 10,000 kms. The suspensions need to be replaced

The main contenders

Nissan Magnite/Renault Kiger

*3 cylinder
*Turbo Engine with CVT/Naturally Aspirated Engine with AMT
*4 Star Safety

Honda Jazz

*4 cylinder
*Naturally Aspirated Engine
CVT
*4 Star Safety
*Variant with Smartphone plus reverse cam OTR approx 1.18 million

Maruti Nexa Scross

*4 cylinder
*Naturally Aspirated Engine
*Torque converter transmission
*Probably 4 Star Safety though it's not tested
*Variant with Reverse cam plus smart phone connectivity approx OTR 1.35 million

Maruti Brezza

*4 cylinder
*Naturally Aspirated Engine
*Torque converter transmission
*Probably 4 Star Safety though 2022 version not tested
*Variant with Rear view cam plus smart phone connectivity approx OTR 1.4 million

Toyota Urban Cruiser

*4 cylinder
*Naturally Aspirated Engine
Torque converter transmission
*4 Star Safety based on prev gen Brezza Score
*Smartphone connectivity plus reverse cam approx OTR 1.3 million


Now the confusion is regarding the following points:

1) Transmission - AMT vs CVT vs TC

2) 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder

3) Turbo charged vs NA engine

4) Will Jazz/S Cross/Urban Cruiser be discontinued? If so any adverse implications over the long term ?

5) Can Nissan and Honda be expected to remain in India for long?

6) How reliable will the smaller capacity turbo petrol engines o be over a decade ?

7) Also can our forum members comment on NVH inside cabin for 3 and 4 cylinder engines ? Especially as the engine in the outgoing car is 4 cylinder.

8) While my colleague is contemplating CVT and TC mainly for reliability, will AMT's fare equally well ?

9) Any other reliable CSUV's premium hatches to be considered at this price range ?

Test Drive Experience

A test drive of the Brezza AT was taken. The engine performance was satisfactory and the AT didn't allow vehicle to roll back when starting from a steep incline. However the steering and the dashboard switches and knobs wasnt particularly appealing. In terms of visual appeal and a premium feel, it felt a step lower than the decade old Swift Dezire

The Toyota Showroom was visited in person for a Test Drive of the Urban Cruiser aka Old Brezza. TD couldn't be arranged and showroom informed that someone will contact them in due course.

Even after multiple calls over 2 weeks TD is yet to happen. Now my friend is apprehensive that if sales part is this lackadaisical, service will be even terrible.

Nice way to operate in the market Toyota. In kerala all the southern and middle districts of Kerala are served by various outlets of a single dealership. That probably makes the sales folk complacent

I had a similar experience with same dealership 3 years ago. (The Magic Carpet - My Honda Jazz Petrol CVT (Automatic)). However I was determined to have a TD of Liva and escalated to Dealership HQ, Toyota and finally got the Test Drive. This shouldn't be the case for a simple Test Drive. It seems dealing with government bureaucracy is simpler than to get a Test Drive vehicle from Toyota

S Cross will be finalised only after getting a TD at their home as a lane to their home is rather narrow (The Dzire can comfortably handle it though)

[self_driven]

Originally Posted by Voodooblaster

A colleague of mine owns a 12 year old Swift Dezire(Petrol MT). It has munched over 1.10 million kms.

That's some next level mile munching!

Now, on a serious note, Brezza AT fits the bill perfectly well in your friend's case. The Vxi variant will come under 14 lakhs on road. Reverse camera can be added from the dealership for around 5k or so. Next best bet would be the Sonet diesel AT.

1) Transmission - AMT vs CVT vs TC

TC or CVT. Impervious to traffic conditions. Super reliable for long term.

2) 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder
3) Turbo charged vs NA engine

NA are less complex and more reliable in comparison. In this segment, you'll find NA engines to be 4 cylinder which gives them an edge when it comes to refinement. That being said, 10-12k kms per year for 10 years is no big deal for turbo petrols with timely maintenance.

4) Will Jazz/S Cross/Urban Cruiser be discontinued? If so any adverse implications over the long term?

IIRC Jazz has been discontinued already. And the other two are also borderline market duds. Resale value will be hit. No other issues.

5) Can Nissan and Honda be expected to remain in India for long?

Unlikely that they'll stay for long (8-10 years) given their current lineup and strategy.

8) While my colleague is contemplating CVT and TC mainly for reliability, will AMT's fare equally well ?

He's absolutely correct. There are horror stories on the forum of AMTs degrading in performance over time (as clutch wears out) and some giving up the ghost at 70-80k kms. Plus the driving experience is below par especially when one is spending big bucks.

9) Any other reliable CSUV's premium hatches to be considered at this price range ?

If budget can be stretched further, Grand Vitara Delta AT can also be considered. This thread will help

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/buyin...to-longer.html (How a more expensive car can work out cheaper (if you hold onto it for longer))

[bijims]

What will be fair value of a 11 year old Swift Desire Vxi that has 1.10 kms under its belt in Trivandrum? The car is mechanically sound The tyres will last another 10,000 kms. The suspensions need to be replaced

Anywhere between Rs 200,000 to Rs. 250,000 should be a reasonable price depending on the condition of the vehicle.

1) Transmission - AMT vs CVT vs TC

CVT and TC would be definitely the better option to avoid the head nod and jerkiness that comes with AMTs.

2) 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder

If given an option under this budget, I would prefer a good, powerful 4 cylinder over a 3 cylinder. But given today's Norm being downsized 1.0 Litre, 3-cylinder tuurbo charged petrols with more power and performance over the 4-cylinder naturally aspirated petrols. Performance enthusiasts are hardly left with a choice, other than diesels or 3 cylinder turbo petrols.

3) Turbo charged vs NA engine

Depends, if it's a 4 cylinder turbo charged engine, I would go for it over a NA engine.

4) Will Jazz/S Cross/Urban Cruiser be discontinued? If so any adverse implications over the long term ?

I was also seriously considering the S-Cross AT but couldn't find any in stock. If available do inform me too. Now back to the question, Yes, all the three are to be discontinued with S-Cross being replaced by the Grand Vitara, Urban Cruiser production discontinued, Jazz to be discontinued within the next few months.

As with all discontinued cars, resale may be an issue. As far as the S-Cross and Urban Cruiser are concerned, parts availability and service won't be an issue as they are based on platforms used in the Brezza and Grand Vitara. Honda is in a tough spot right now with hardly anything which sells other than the City and Amaze, so the future of Honda looks bleak.

5) Can Nissan and Honda be expected to remain in India for long?

It's a tough call and depends on what new products they plan to bring. With their current portfolio, it seems hard for them to last long.

6) How reliable will the smaller capacity turbo petrol engines o be over a decade ?

The more complex technologies involved, chances of repair and replacement increase, All new technologies will have the initial niggles, 1.0 L 3-cylinder, Turbo charged petrols being more complex than NA counterparts have higher chances of failure of turbochargers and engine problems. However, that doesn't mean they are worse and shouldn't be recommended.

7) Also can our forum members comment on NVH inside cabin for 3 and 4 cylinder engines ? Especially as the engine in the outgoing car is 4 cylinder

The difference can be definitely be made out, especially when at idle with the thrum of the 3-cylinder being more prominent, however on the move, it nulls down.

8) While my colleague is contemplating CVT and TC mainly for reliability, will AMT's fare equally well ?

AMTs are the least complex of the technologies involved here and are essentially Manuals with automated gearshift and no clutches. So reliability won't be an issue with AMTs, their repair costs will also be cheaper.

9) Any other reliable CSUV's premium hatches to be considered at this price range ?

Within a budget of 1.4 million rupees, my recommendation would be to go for the S-Cross if available.
Else if you can extend your budget a little bit more to 1.45 million rupees, the Kia Sonet HTX Diesel AT would be a good choice as well. It has the same engine and gearbox as used in the Seltos, Creta, Carens, Elantra, Alcazar. 4-cylinder diesel engine with TC gearbox is refined, frugal and powerful at the same time. Price difference OTR between diesel and petrol Sonet is hardly 78k. A good alternative to consider if you are OK with a diesel.

The new Brezza is a decent choice although it feels a bit pricey. The Urban Cruiser at its current price is absolutely VFM.

[yedukrishnan199]

I second @bijims views here. The S-Cross, although did not set the sales charts on fire was the most premium car from the Maruti stable, it was let down by high pricing initially and its crossover stance never really got over against the SUV-like stance, features and overall better packaging that the Creta and other competitors had to offer.
With the way prices of cars have skyrocketed, the S-Cross and Urban Cruiser seem excellent value for money for what they offer.

However, if you want a more updated Compact SUV with all the bells and whistles, the Sonet Diesel AT in HTX Variant is a great choice indeed.
The new Brezza in its VXI AT trim is also a good buy if you are looking for an updated model.

[ajayc123]

Notable distinction is that the S Cross is 4 speed AT while the Brezza is 6 speed AT, if that matters.

Also you should research a bit more on the fuel efficiency of CVT vs Torque Converter based AT, if fuel efficiency is a priority.

CVT may be more suited to sedate driving style while TQ based AT will be more suitable for more responsive driving.

[ranjitnair77]

Originally Posted by Voodooblaster

Hi all TBhpians

Wish to pick your brains for a Car Purchase

A colleague of mine owns a 12 year old Swift Dezire(Petrol MT). It has munched over 1.10 million kms and is in the market for a new car. Place of purchase is Trivandrum, Kerala. As of now the family members primarily using the car will be my Colleague, Spouse and their 3 year old kid

I think your colleague should definitely add the Honda City into the mix. It is not a C-SUV or a Hatch. I know the AT is slightly higher than his budget but he should take a test drive once. I feel that it is the best vehicle in that range and it will age very well.

AMTs should be completely avoided unless on a very tight budget.

[Turbohead]

+1 to ranjitnair77

The City V CVT is a bit of a stretch but it'll satisfy him completely. That's a car you'd be happy to keep for 10 years and despite being the base variant, it's decently equipped.

[Durango Dude]

I think the Kiger/Magnite (turbo-petrol with CVT) twins would serve him well or even the Jazz CVT. Brezza is kind of expensive for what it offers because of 1.5L petrol engine and loosing the tax benefit. Choice is his after a test drive. Is the mileage reading on the Swift Dzire 1.1 lakh or 1.1 million? Also have a look at the Sonet/Venue twins they are priced close or lower to the Brezza due to their small capacity turbo-petrol engines, but DCT's may spring surprises. The 4th gen City manual is one car that's the best value today as it retails at Rs 11 OTR. Amaze CVT (petrol or diesel) would also be a good choice.

[Voodooblaster]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Also have a look at the Sonet/Venue twins

Originally Posted by self_driven

Next best bet would be the Sonet diesel AT.

Originally Posted by bijims

Else if you can extend your budget a little bit more to 1.45 million rupees, the Kia Sonet HTX Diesel AT would be a good choice

Originally Posted by yedukrishnan199

However, if you want a more updated Compact SUV with all the bells and whistles, the Sonet Diesel AT in HTX Variant is a great choice indeed.

Kia/Hyundai are not being considered due to the dismal GNCAP ratings despite costing a bomb.

Also there is a perception that Hyundai doesn't age as gracefully as Honda/Maruti/Toyota

Originally Posted by self_driven

IIRC Jazz has been discontinued already. And the other two are also borderline market duds. Resale value will be hit.

Originally Posted by bijims

all three are to be discontinued with S-Cross being replaced by the Grand Vitara, Urban Cruiser production discontinued, Jazz to be discontinued within the next few months.
As with all discontinued cars, resale may be an issue.

Since the car will be used for a decade, hopefully resale value will not be a major issue

Originally Posted by bijims

Anywhere between Rs 200,000 to Rs. 250,000 should be a reasonable price depending on the condition of the vehicle.

Thank you. I will inform them accordingly

Originally Posted by bijims

I was also seriously considering the S-Cross AT but couldn't find any in stock.

In which city were you enquiring?

Originally Posted by yedukrishnan199

S-Cross and Urban Cruiser seem excellent value for money for what they offer.

Originally Posted by ajayc123

S Cross is 4 speed AT while the Brezza is 6 speed AT, if that matters.

How does it differ in FE and performance

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Also you should research a bit more on the fuel efficiency of CVT vs Torque Converter based AT, if fuel efficiency is a priority.

Fuel efficiency is always a priority. Will research more on this

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

add the Honda City into the mix.

Originally Posted by Turbohead

City V CVT is a bit of a stretch but it'll satisfy him completely. That's a car you'd be happy to keep for 10 years and despite being the base variant, it's decently equipped.

Will definitely suggest the 5th gen V-CVT City

Originally Posted by self_driven

If budget can be stretched further, Grand Vitara Delta AT can also be considered

My friend assumed that Hyryder/Vitara mild hybrid is just the S Cross fitted with the Brezza Engine. Please correct us if we are wrong. Also the starting OTR of AT variant is 16 lacs

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Swift Dzire 1.1 lakh or 1.1 million?
The 4th gen City manual is one car that's the best value today as it retails at Rs 11 OTR. Amaze CVT (petrol or diesel) would also be a good choice.

Mileage is 1.1 lakh kms. Will update opening post accordingly

Manuals are not being considered, hence 4th Gen City (otherwise VFM and competent and my ride)

Amaze unfortunately doesn't appeal as an upgrade from the dzire

[ajayc123]

I am not an expert in the tough follow up questions that you asked me, but the 6 speed AT is a modern transmission introduced recently by Maruti, whereas, they were using 4 speed AT before this (like S-Cross).

On your question on FE in torque converter based AT , due to the nature of coupling (fluid involved)there may be some transmission losses leading to slight drop in FE, but in modern couplings this has been resolved to some extent.

You can look at this thread to get a general idea. (Notably post #14).

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...converter.html (How to extract the maximum fuel efficiency from a torque-converter AT?)

[yedukrishnan199]

In which city were you enquiring?

I too enquired for the S-Cross in Thrissur, Palakkad, Ernakulam, Malappuram, Kozhikode and Kollam. None have the S-Cross AT in stock, if you do find any dealership having one, please DM me too.

My friend assumed that Hyryder/Vitara mild hybrid is just the S Cross fitted with the Brezza Engine. Please correct us if we are wrong. Also the starting OTR of AT variant is 16 lacs

The engine is the same as on the New Brezza for the mild hybrids with a 6-speed Torque converter AT as against the 4-speed in the S-Cross. The design, features set and interiors have changed compared to the S-Cross, but with a drastic increase in prices too.
The S-Cross was definitely more VFM. Moreover at 16 lakhs, you would be better off with Honda City CVT than the Grand Vitara/Hyryder purely from a better value for money, performance and reliability perspective.
Nothing beats the City when it comes to sedans.

[bijims]

Originally Posted by Voodooblaster

In which city were you enquiring?

I am from Thrissur and have a home in Ernakulam too, enquired through all dealerships in Ernakulam, Palakkad and Thrissur, none have any S-Cross ATs in stock. Most of them however do have the manual S-Cross in stock. Plese inform me if any dealership near you has any S-Cross AT in stock and feel free to DM me on the same and any other queries you have got. Thanks

[Voodooblaster]

Originally Posted by self_driven

That's some next level mile munching!

Got the typo in the post corrected. The odo of existing car is 1.10 lac kms and not 1.10 million kms as initially mentioned

[unpopulrxplorer]

My vote would be S-Cross if you can find one otherwise MS Brezza and following are my considerations:
1. It is definitely not the value for money choice but engine is tested well and with 6 speed TC you can expect the FE around 16-18 kmpl. I am using the same engine in ertiga and vitara brezza from 2 years (manual), I am quite satisfied with it. FE varies from 14-19 kmpl.
2. The design is updated, at a longer run scross and urban cruiser would feel outdated.
3. You are already owning a MS and well versed with the after sales service, I think that plays an important role. I have a datsun/Nissan and maintenance is such a hassle due to limited centres.
4. City is a legendary vehicle but company’s future may bring down the resell drastically. My friend was owning a diesel ford eco sport which he didn’t plan on selling however as soon as Ford exited, the peace of mind was not their and he ended up selling the car.

[bhairavp]

How about a Kushaq/Taigun? The lower-end 1L AT should be around that price range?