[harit]

Originally Posted by mbz180

Haritji, As far as I remember, my grand dad told me that his father had a Napier too. Regards Prithvi

We were talking about existing Napiers in India. There were more, survivors are rare. The Nizam himself had more, as did many other Maharajas. Many even came for the Durbar.

I have been talking to a lot of participants and visitors about their take on the Cartier event. Basically it did not live up to its promise, showcasing the best cars in India. This is also what is being talked about in the international scenario. Cartier, it seems relied entirely on the curator, who it seems lost the plot. India is still known for the fine cars left behind after the mad export rush, and India is also known to make a mess of things when politics come into play. Some background info is necessary to fully understand what has happened here.

For this event, the category of Indian modified cars was dropped. Yet many cars suitable for this category were present, the WO Bentley, the RR PI and the Morgan. These cars should not have been here.
Two new categories were introduced, preservation class and Indian Heritage cars. This was a back door created to allow really silly unworthy cars to be showcased in India's (so called) finest event.

Take the preservation class. Why was there a Rolls P III with only spots of paint on it? Why was there a repainted DeSoto which had some interiors of another car fitted into it? India has a very suitable car for the preservation class in the form of a Mercedes 500K. Why was this not here? Is the curator not aware of this car? Is Gondal so much further away from Dungarpur to worry about transportation cost? The answer lies probably in the fact that this 500K had featured in two books of a so called "rival" historian. How sad and cheap, a let down for Cartier and the visiting public in general.

Then the Indian Heritage class. What was this supposed to represent? My guess is cars assembled in India. So we have Standard Vanguard and Hindustan 14 is a Cartier event No disrespect to the cars, but why not the Indian assembled Chevy 1934 restored by our DKG which would have been far more pleasing to the eyes. Is he now a rival as he has started restoring cars?

There are other strange situations which are not clear. Karl commented about the black E-type, the body did not look right. Well, that car was originally a coupe and is a chop top, highly inappropriate for a Cartier event. And sadly, there is a very original car in Bangalore belonging to Doc which, incidently was used as a template for this creation. Why Doc's car was not invited is a puzzle.

Then there is the case of the three 1947 Caddy's. Why three, are there no other cars around? The job of the curator would have been to see both the 1947 Caddy's himself and selected the better car.

The two Avons, sorry, nothing personal, but these cars needed more than just a face lift, one was still all askew, the best looking Avon in India is lying in Mangalore and would have been a much more deserved entry.

That Morgan, why oh why when you are showcasing India's finest cars?

There were so many errors. All participants were requested to give history of their cars How could gross errors creep in such as:
Nizam Car is 1912, not 1911.
Packard was not a Super 8
Studebaker coupe wrongly identified.

It is also very interesting to note who the entrants were, and who was kept away. This you go figure on your own, really not difficult.

A couple of years ago the curator attended an event in Mumbai, saying that he was there to see the cars as he was making selections for the next Carier event, a top sectret at that time. The cars present which were newly restored and shining examples and Cartier-worthy were a Lanchester, Packard and Graham. Strangely none of these cars were invited. That Lanchester with its "picknic" folding chairs would have been one of the most suitable cars for this event. And why not Mallya's Alvis?

An arguement often used was that the budget was tight, so transport cost was an issue, so cars were selected more from northern India. A very good reasoning which falls apart when you consider that a DeSoto and Avon were transported from afar. I do not know whether the black E-type was stationed in Delhi or far away, but the Bangalore car has far more class.

Some folks were being charitable and say that the curator took on too much and was over burdened. Tha may be so, then Cartier should consider giving extra help. How they can afford such a poor show is beyond me. Did they not have reasonable aspirations and goals for such a "grand" event? I wonder whether the returns were justified.

The lack of interest of the general public is apparent, see how long it took for pictures to come up, see the limited number of posts on this thread, note that this thread is not parked.

I was also told that many cars looked good in photos, but bodywork is wavy when seen from close up. This I cannot comment on as I was not present physically. If this was an event from which one car is to be taken to Pebble Beach, then that was the Stutz. This was the car selected by most TV crews to have as a backdrop when doing interviews.

Let us see what the future holds for such events.

The comments made above do not imply that every car was bad, every entrant was non deserving, no, derving cars and entrants were be there. It was unfair to them to put their cars into such a circus like event. And it is the negatives which stood out, many cars and their entrants had no reason to be there other than being eligible for being cronies. Merits flew out of the window. Not much can be expected when some cars were invited as late as January 2011.

And notice the attempt to showcase family artists with Cartier monogrammed plackards, can we expect these paintings in Cartier showrooms in future? That was wicked, only wicked when compared to the hype and letdown of the show. Cartier events can only go up from here.

The Mumbai event was far superior, had better cars, generated lots of excitement. Almost all I spoke with agreed with this.

Cheers harit

[KPS]

Originally Posted by harit

Then the Indian Heritage class. What was this supposed to represent? My guess is cars assembled in India. So we have Standard Vanguard and Hindustan 14 is a Cartier event No disrespect to the cars, but why not the Indian assembled Chevy 1934 restored by our DKG which would have been far more pleasing to the eyes. Is he now a rival as he has started restoring cars?

The two Avons, sorry, nothing personal, but these cars needed more than just a face lift, one was still all askew, the best looking Avon in India is lying in Mangalore and would have been a much more deserved entry.

The Mumbai event was far superior, had better cars, generated lots of excitement. Almost all I spoke with agreed with this.

Cheers harit

My exposure to the national scene is too limited to comment fully on Harit's post but I must appreciate his desire to show case both sides of the coin and give his frank opinion.

I too was deeply disappointed with the Indian Heritage Class as for such a huge event of Cartier, this was an badly thought through addition. Considering that GM set up manufacturing operations in 1928 why was it limited to Post War Indian Heritage Class? Even Post War we had the Buick Special and Super. The Sundaram Chevy restored by DKG would be been a worthy car under Indian Heritage Class.

I too thought that the Mangalore Avon could have been show cased with the other two. Having 3 rare cars in one place would have been so much more interesting to compare.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attach...ial-avon-1.jpg

Yes the Mumbai event was far better. Reading from Mr. Gautam Sen's Maharaja's Book one understands when Harit's says there are so many other cars that could have been show cased.

Inspite of every thing I do hope that the next Cartier Event will be held in South, though we are poorer cousins when it comes to "Mark Cars" in South. Imagining the event in Chowmalla Palace with the HEH Nizam of Hyderabad cars in the back drop and participants from South and East. I cannot stop dreaming.

Cheers

KPS

[the mole]

A funny thought crossed my mind, if no car previously invited will be re-invited what is likely to happen after the 5th edition, will they display Austin, Morris,Pontons?

We have to remember that number of cars in our country are restricted by import regulations. And what I gather from reading posts is that politics plays a huge part and certain people may probably never be invited. Did this edition even have tickets for commoners like me? The way things are going in this country you cant even get a ticket to a cricket match anymore. Though I feel fairly confident that my number will come by the 10th edition.

Will bikes like Goldstars, Manxes, Internationals be ever invited?

[DKG]

Originally Posted by KPS

Imagining the event in Chowmalla Palace with the HEH Nizam of Hyderabad cars in the back drop and participants from South and East. I cannot stop dreaming.

How ironic. Just a minute ago I mentioned in the Nizam's car thread that a Chowmahalla Concours de Elegance should be organised annually and do the whole thing in style.

That setting is so gorgeous and Falaknuma could be a venue too. Perhaps we brand it as the Hyderabad Concours de Elegance and showcase it around the many fabulous palaces we have here.

Indian companies can sponsor the event and it should showcase the finest and ensure there is zero politics.

I feel a slightly different approach can also be adopted. There should be two sections to the event. One should be the competitive section where cars compete for top honours in restoration etc. The other aspect of the event should be to only share treasures with the public. Priceless cars lying locked up should be on display so that we atleast get a chance to see them.

The first Cartier event was rich in content and that richness most certainly was missing this time around. I was a bit surprised as Delhi is known to have so many awesome cars in collections.

Perhaps its time for more events to develop so that the overall quality of the events also increases !! After all why limit it to cars competing

Kingfisher and Mr Mallya the King of Good Times are you listening?

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by the mole

Did this edition even have tickets for commoners like me? The way things are going in this country you cant even get a ticket to a cricket match anymore.

I always remained suprised at how people are content to sit back. (the mole, this is not a reference to you) and complain about being excluded or how they don't like something.

There are plenty of knowledgeable, personable and motivated people on this forum.

Why don't they get together and put together a small event at first, and then move on put on a bigger event? Start small with something manageable. May be a small quality event, with just 10 quality vehicles in a nice location. It will grow with time.

Let's not forget how the movement in this country started. A few enthusiasts sitting in the a/c room of a bungalow in Bombay in the 60s. No-one was ever excluded and if anything, the opposite was encouraged. Even little kids off of the roads would turn up on the rallies!

As an aside, it is ridiculous not to "invite" cars to return just because they have been shown once.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by the mole

A funny thought crossed my mind, if no car previously invited will be re-invited what is likely to happen after the 5th edition, will they display Austin, Morris,Pontons?

Did this edition even have tickets for commoners like me?

I'm pretty sure that there are many more really great cars in the country to run the show for a few years more without repeats.

Entry (for visitors) by invitation only. It makes the event quite enjoyable if invited though I do feel it would be nice to also have the display open to all on one day (naturally in a more controlled environment for security of the cars).

At the same time I would like to add that since I was very keen to attend the event, I approached to secure an invitation, which was graciously posted to me promptly, which I do appreceate (considering I am not an owner of a fancy classic, nor did I have friends in high places to put in a good word).

Originally Posted by Faster789

As an aside, it is ridiculous not to "invite" cars to return just because they have been shown once.

You know, much of the enthusiasm in me towards this times event was the fact that I won't see any of the same cars again. Don't misunderstand me, I would be only too happy to see any of last time's cars once more, but then a fair amount of curiousity added to the mystique of seeing a completely new set. For example I have found myself in local rallies in Bombay or Pune looking very hard for a car that I haven't seen before, since most entries are regulars over the years.

[harit]

Originally Posted by Faster789

I always remained suprised at how people are content to sit back. (the mole, this is not a reference to you) and complain about being excluded or how they don't like something. There are plenty of knowledgeable, personable and motivated people on this forum.

Why don't they get together and put together a small event at first, and then move on put on a bigger event? Start small with something manageable. May be a small quality event, with just 10 quality vehicles in a nice location. It will grow with time.

Let's not forget how the movement in this country started. A few enthusiasts sitting in the a/c room of a bungalow in Bombay in the 60s. No-one was ever excluded and if anything, the opposite was encouraged. Even little kids off of the roads would turn up on the rallies!

As an aside, it is ridiculous not to "invite" cars to return just because they have been shown once.

I love this post. Gives an opportunity to say more.
I consider myself as people, and I do not sit back. But I see that I am almost a loner. Sad because many many agree with me, have very similar views and still have some fear. Come on all you guys, do not be chicken!! Future Cartier events, or any base VCCCI has are shrinking, if they continue with their personal agenda, they will become microscopic. Fortunately my being vocal has aroused lots of interest, tongues have started wagging, and the bearded man or curator have no defence whatsoever. These names almost sound like the wrestling scene. Too much faking.

Now to the post. There are many knowledgeable, personable and motivated people on this forum, but sadly do not take a stand. I personally have nothing to lose, I do not need Cartier for my hobby, I do not need VCCCI to get my cars registers, I need neither to enjoy my hobby. But I hate nepotism and do not agree with the going ons, so I voice my opinion strongly.

When a small group got together and had their first event, they were pioneers. Todays organisations exist, we will not be pioneers. Our task is different. We need to expose the present set up. And I am succeeding. Even VCCCI started in a small meeting room in Merchants club at Chowpatti. Only sad thing it has been hijacked. That room also did not have an A/c. But from the beginning there was exclusion, or rather selection, and that is being practiced till now.

Regarding cartier and invites, my estimate is that one can have atleast 10 events of 60 cars and for these 10 events no car will repeat. Only selection must be by merit of the cars, no personal agenda. Remember, Pranlal's collection is there, so is Mallya's, Sanghi has much better cars (was he being deliberately ridiculed in selection of his cars?), and then there are individuals all over India who own a car or two. After the last event, I had a conversation with The Curator and mentioned to him that I had no Cartier worthy car after this Lancia. He immediately listed 5 of my cars which were contenders. Why he chose a DeSoto over these he will have to answer one day to somebody.

If anyone is to start any movement, even a get together over tea and sandwiches, my cars will participate. Me to if in station, or my cars will be there. Events must be encouraged, that is why you see my cars even in Thane though unfortunately I have not managed to be there personally. At this rate one day south Mumbai will ahve two clubs.

The bearded man has already declared that he will never address my grievences, so you can imagine the future for the hobby for Mumbaikars. Bleak!

harit

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by harit

When a small group got together and had their first event, they were pioneers. Todays organisations exist, we will not be pioneers. Our task is different. We need to expose the present set up.

Why would you want to "expose" the present set up? It's widely known to be what it is. What it is, is completely symptomatic of what a number of bodies in India eventually become, one or two people's plaything. It's almost the norm. My view is that you will be wasting time and energy trying to be Sherlock Holmes and that time and energy would be better spent doing something far more productive.

If you set up a viable alternative to the entity you criticise, it will gradually waste away. Easier said than done however, and I wish you the best of luck should you choose to go down that road. It's definitely doable, you just need to want to do it.

[DKG]

Harit, The Mole, Karlos, Faster I created a thread to discuss just this, what an ideal Concours de Elegance should have and how it should be structured and run. Check out the thread and please add your views so that we can proactively evolve a model that atleasts drastically reduces, if not eliminates, the usual politics and heartburn

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ly-should.html

[Bulldogji]

This time around even i felt that the bombay show was better in every way.Having said this I must mention one thing that was common to both shows.The salesmanship .The poor judges, perhaps being used to honesty were told tales which were,well just tales.And that helped influence decisions.But at least I can say that most of us had a lovely time meeting old friends and relaxing.Of course we were amused at the way the tense salesmen were desperately trying to sell their wares.All in all great fun and hats of to Manvinder for the effort put in.

[harit]

Originally Posted by Faster789

Why would you want to "expose" the present set up? If you set up a viable alternative to the entity you criticise, it will gradually waste away. Easier said than done however, and I wish you the best of luck should you choose to go down that road. It's definitely doable, you just need to want to do it.

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

This time around even i felt that the bombay show was better in every way.Having said this I must mention one thing that was common to both shows.The salesmanship .The poor judges, perhaps being used to honesty were told tales which were,well just tales.And that helped influence decisions.But at least I can say that most of us had a lovely time meeting old friends and relaxing.Of course we were amused at the way the tense salesmen were desperately trying to sell their wares.All in all great fun and hats of to Manvinder for the effort put in.

Faster, I take back the word "expose". As you have said, almost all are aware. I am only bringing up what all are aware about. It is similar to a pinching shoe. After a while you get used to it, so you need a reminder that the shoe is pinching. Since your feet cannot tell you or post on a thread, they may let you know by a ceratin scent when the shoe is removed. But fortunately I do not need to wait for a scent, I simply put up a post to remind all. Hope this sounds better.

Bulldogji, what are you posting? This differs from what you say. Manvendra put in an effort to promote his personal agenda, and no hats (this time they were not even given) need to be "off-ed" to him. You yourself had some comments on some of the cars present, more on some of the rubbish which was on display. For giving the opportunity of having a lovely time and meeting old friends and relaxing, you need to thank Cartier, the organisers, and not the curator, who put up so much rubbish. Actually, on reflection I am wrong. By having only a few worthy cars, he gave all ample of time for an opportunity of meeting old friends and relaxing.

Reading that post, I recall the dark days of Indira Gandhi's emergency. Only one newspaper baron had the courage to call a spade a spade, and that trend seems to be continuing. Sorry, but I tend to be forthright, and to the point, no appeasing anyone from me. My stand will be consistant. And I am not talking about the poor judges, that is incidental.

Cheers harit

[wasif]

Guys...this is the show report thread and lets keep ity that way.

I suggest the mods create a seperate thread, something where your views on what was good, what was lacking and what needs to be done can be posted and debated freely.

I have said earlier and will say so again if you all are unhappy with the way the cars were selected for this show then why not you guys get together, find the required sponsors and put together a show worthy of the cars to be showcased and in doign so demonstrate to the vintage car fraternity how it should be done.

Your posting here about what was lacking in the show will not do much good.

Its time the active ones take the bull by its horns and show them how its done. I am sure if the event is looking to be a stunner then there will be no dirth of sponsors.

Start small, keep it transparent and you are bound to suceed and grow.

Maybe youc an do an annual event and tie up with teh organiers of Pebble Beach or such and ensure that the best of show is invited to Pebble Beach. Quality of restoration in India is definitely on par with the west now.

[Bulldogji]

Harit,I always stand by what I say, and I retierate,some of the cars had no business to be there but end of the day we or at least some of us had fun.I thank the curator because he treated us with respect and dignity.The foriegners , well less said the better.They had agendas we were not privy to and behaved in an obnoxious manner,noticed by many car owners.There were many thoughts expressed on whether some would participate in future cartier events,not because of Manvinder who remained stern but helpful ,BUT due to the attitude of the whites.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

Harit,I always stand by what I say, and I retierate,some of the cars had no business to be there but end of the day we or at least some of us had fun.I thank the curator because he treated us with respect and dignity.The foriegners , well less said the better.They had agendas we were not privy to and behaved in an obnoxious manner,noticed by many car owners.There were many thoughts expressed on whether some would participate in future cartier events,not because of Manvinder who remained stern but helpful ,BUT due to the attitude of the whites.

I hope Manvindra Singh reads this feedback and takes up the issue with Cartier. Its sad to read this. Quite obviously as a spectator we weren't exposed to all these issues and I hope by the next event corrective action gets taken !!

[vintageman]

Sirs ,

After a long absence from the forum I returned to Cartier "Travel with Style" Concourse d' Elegance 2011 the pictures & comments on this forum are my exposure to this event . I presumed that the premier concours event held in India would replicate to some extent the extravaganza we had last year . Regretably the show in its latest avatar was a let down.

The Nizam's Rolls was all bling , it may have been exotica to a visitor to the event , but , to the aficianado , the car seemed to have lost it's spirit between the initial pictures posted by DKG and what was presented at Delhi , surprisingly it went away with some sort of a prize , I do not know how it scored for detailing and research by the owner.
And the Rolls with the paint missing was a farce for the Preservation Category.

The quality of cars on show seems to reaffirm the fact that such events on the subcontinent are conducted more for the benefit of cronies and to repay past favours ( you scratch my back , I scratch yours ) or to book new ones ( favours ) . It would seem considerations other than the quality of cars on display were factors in the cars invited to participate. This might be conjecturing but as stated I am commenting on what I see and read on the forum.
Another fact that astonished me was the number of Lucknow registration cars which were entered ( UP 32 xx xxxx ) - the 3 aphabet cars UPF / USJ / UPD etc . were sold much earlier so their ownership would stand but the later numbers bely belief - I have been resident here for 50 years but I have never in all those years seen these cars in town nor have I ever heard of their owners and I know all the vintage car owners in Lucknow and the neighbouring districts - if any owners read this , will they advise how they accomplished this feat - I thought residence was required to register cars .

The event had it's saving graces - the pristine Stutz was one and the Bentley's and the Jaguars were exquisite . Ofcourse the Delahaye was unquestionably the best car still.
I had a mental block for the Indian Heritage Class so will not comment on something I did not understand nor could understand the reason for .

One of the posts states that Prince Michael of Kent declared that the organisers had managed to improve on the first concours at Mumbai - I do not agree with his statement , it would be interesting to note how many of the guru's and pundits on the vintage forum agree with him.

And - the Ladies Judges Choice - please tell me I am wrong - the Lancia di Lambda was fitted withy Ford Truck Rims , if I am right , then also - the ladies made their choice but for such an event the car should have carried a notice above the wind screen that it was running on borrowed wheels .

One bit of information before I end - the JK Rolls are registered as UPR 2797 & UPR 491 and not UP-R xxxx.

I would not be too harsh on the organisers and curator - they have to live with the results of the show they created , they are not answerable to us , but , hopefully next time around lessons would have been learnt from the experiences of the present event .

Regards
Chauhan