[DKG]

I didn't think the 8 litre would cross the million mark more like 6-7 lac dollars. Obviously I was wrong. My logic was that the V16's still don't command those prices and an 8 litre Bentley would be marginally costlier.

So anyway looks like this is a apt list of the top collectible cars in India. I reckon RM would pick these.

Any additions? Basically a car crossing a million dollar mark is okay to figure in the top 10 list.

Edit: just googled the most expensive cars of all time and the 540's now figure in the 8 mill mark along with many Ferraris. My favourite Ferrari of all time the California is now the most expensive at 10+

The Nizam's RR will definitely cross all other rollers. It should be as precious as AX 201. It should cross 10 too in my opinion. Its too one of a kind !!

BTW a speed six also features, no 8 litre has made it to the top 10 most expensive cars of all time

[IndrojitSircar]

So are we finalising on the criteria that the cars which we think are the top 10 collectible cars have to cross the $1million mark or do we still want to stick by the desirability factor in the international market or since we are talking about the cars in India then Indian market ?

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

I didn't think the 8 litre would cross the million mark more like 6-7 lac dollars. Obviously I was wrong.

They have routinely gone for a 1m + at auction. The very cream of 8 litres have never come up for auction. They have always changed hands privately. A member of a BDCL in the UK recently purchased a newly restored short chassis 8 litre for a remarkable 7 figure sum.

Originally Posted by DKG

Basically a car crossing a million dollar mark is okay to figure in the top 10 list.

There are only going to be so many of these in India, I think we'd struggle to find ten off the original list to be honest. Could be wrong of course.

Originally Posted by DKG

just googled the most expensive cars of all time and the 540's now figure in the 8 mill mark along with many Ferraris. My favourite Ferrari of all time the California is now the most expensive at 10+

As I said, there are the odd individual machines that break the mould. The 540K you refer to really did break the mould. The Indian cars are unlikely to come anywhere near that realm. Is the 540 K originally Chudasama's car? Or was that the 500k?

Chris Evans recently purchased (as in two years ago) James Coburns' 250 California. I was fortunate enough to visit the car in the flesh and you'd be suprised to hear that it's not in £5.2m worth of concours condition. The car was going to be subject to a full restoration.

Originally Posted by DKG

The Nizam's RR will definitely cross all other rollers. It should be as precious as AX 201. It should cross 10 too in my opinion. Its too one of a kind !!

The Nizam's car is a ceremonial coach and doesn't have anywhere near the history AX201 has (in my opinion, I don't know enough about the Nizam's car to be sure). AX201 almost single handedly put RR on the big time map, with it's sucess at the Scottish Trials and other publicity events. No doubt the Nizam's car is special, but I don't think it's an AX201.

Originally Posted by DKG

BTW a speed six also features, no 8 litre has made it to the top 10 most expensive cars of all time

The Speed Six you are referring to is likely to be Old No.2 (or it No.1!?) which has racing providence and huge historical signifance and connections to the original Bentley Boys. There's also the Barnato "Blue Train" Speed Six which if it were to come to auction, would certainly make interesting figures.

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

Edit: just googled the most expensive cars of all time and the 540's now figure in the 8 mill mark along with many Ferraris.

I'd be wary about the reliability of lists such as these on google. A lot of them simply speculate ("rumoured to have gone for") what the car sold for or simply speculate what the car will go for.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by DKG

The Nizam's RR will definitely cross all other rollers. It should be as precious as AX 201. It should cross 10 too in my opinion. Its too one of a kind !!

Originally Posted by Faster789

The Indian cars are unlikely to come anywhere near that realm. Is the 540 K originally Chudasama's car? Or was that the 500k?

The Nizam's car is a ceremonial coach and doesn't have anywhere near the history AX201 has (in my opinion, I don't know enough about the Nizam's car to be sure). AX201 almost single handedly put RR on the big time map, with it's sucess at the Scottish Trials and other publicity events. No doubt the Nizam's car is special, but I don't think it's an AX201.

In all fairness DKG I too wouldn't say the Nizam's Rolls is in AX 201 league. The car may be well preserved but there is so much to be done. Plus there's the matter of alterations, I doubt it would be so easily reversible. AX 201 is absolutely unique - it is the Silver Ghost, and it is the only car that can lay stake to that claim. And - relatively speaking - that has got to be the most valuable car around today.

Faster - the 500K is ex Chudasama, 540K is ex Jackie Shroff. The 540K is quite a looker.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

In all fairness DKG I too wouldn't say the Nizam's Rolls is in AX 201 league. The car may be well preserved but there is so much to be done. Plus there's the matter of alterations, I doubt it would be so easily reversible. AX 201 is absolutely unique - it is the Silver Ghost, and it is the only car that can lay stake to that claim. And - relatively speaking - that has got to be the most valuable car around today.

Faster - the 500K is ex Chudasama, 540K is ex Jackie Shroff. The 540K is quite a looker.

I have seen AX 201 and from close and personally would pick the Nizam's RR any day. This RR is in a different league. AX 201 is not even half as impressive. Its a very pretty RR given the body style but that's it, nothing special about it. On the other hand every inch of the Nizam's RR exudes special order styling and finishing. AX 201 is a bit over rated and the same car was left neglected for years before RR eventually picked it up and decided to glorify it with a proper restoration and big PR exercise. I had read the full story of AX 201. Its a significant car no doubt but nothing special about its manufacture. I vaguely remember that the restoration effort and money spent by RR on this car can fill pages enough to make a book. They went to great lengths to bring this car to its present condition.

Anyway we can discuss this to no end so lets agree to diasgree on this one.

Karlos the railway garage that made the mods in 1936 seem to have applied a skin over the original bodywork. I am inclined to believe there's a strong chance the original body is left untouched under the skin. New fenders and correct wheels would need to be remade/acquired. Everything else is standard as finished in 1912.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Faster789

I'd be wary about the reliability of lists such as these on google. A lot of them simply speculate ("rumoured to have gone for") what the car sold for or simply speculate what the car will go for.

The list is of cars that have been sold, mostly by RM auction, not rumoured prices. You may have referred to an older outdated list. The cars are now touching the 10 million mark. If the Royale comes up for sale it could very well cross 15 or even touch 20 million in today's market.

Originally Posted by Faster789

I was fortunate enough to visit the car in the flesh and you'd be suprised to hear that it's not in £5.2m worth of concours condition. The car was going to be subject to a full restoration.

Very rarely do prices get affected by the condition of the car in this league. Most racings Alfa's are still with dings and paint chipping and owners seem to like it that way. They trade at obscene prices !

[DKG]

Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar

So are we finalising on the criteria that the cars which we think are the top 10 collectible cars have to cross the $1million mark or do we still want to stick by the desirability factor in the international market or since we are talking about the cars in India then Indian market ?

To finalise this list its safest to work on the basis of desirability based on pricing it will command. Desirablity based on personal choice will make it impossible to finalise the list.

For example AX 201 is probably the most valuable car on the planet. Some say you can't price it, some say its worth about 50 million dollars in today's money. I personally spent an entire afternoon gazing at the car. If you factor out its historical relevance to RR the car at best is a very pretty RR and doesn't blow you away. Of the cars available on the planet this one simply won't figure in my list.

I find the bulk of 540's ugly, downright ugly. But they figure right up at the top.

So its too subjective when you start factoring desirability based on personal choices.

To freeze this list I recommend we stick to pricing of the car based on what it would command in the international market as the measure of the car's desirability and eligibility to make it to the top 10 collectible cars in India

What say?

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

To finalise this list its safest to work on the basis of desirability based on pricing it will command.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by DKG

So its too subjective when you start factoring desirability based on personal choices.

Agreed and what I have been saying all along.

Originally Posted by DKG

What say?

Two stages at this point.

Stage 1.

The top six as propounded by DKG in an earlier list are the cream of the crop. In terms of values realised at auction (and therefore collectivity) the top six in order are:

1. 540K
2. 500K
3. Bentley 8 Litre (McKenzie)
4. Bentley 8 Litre (stock)
5. Delahaye 135 M
6. Daimler Double Six
7. Rollys Royce Silver Ghost (Nizam)

This list is based purely on prices realised, not what might be realisable, private sales (which can't be verified), or rumoured auction prices (the Rajkot Rolls is an example of auction hype but the facts show otherwse) and does not take into account cars like AX201 (which went for far more than the average $1m for the Silver Ghost cars), because none of them can be compared to a ground breaking car like that. In fact, there is probably not another car to which the success of a marque can be attributed like AX201.

I appreciate that this list may cause controversy, but it is stage 1. Stage one will be complete when four more cars added. If that can't be done by the end of today, then I would suggest the mods form a poll on the basis of the six cars. Please use only RM or reputed auction values to keep things as empirical as possible.

Stage 2.

Once the poll is set allowing the community to vote for each of the 6/10 cars in order of preference, we will then have the top 10 favourite cars as decided from the top 10 most collectible.

That will have been an excellent effort merging both the objective and the subjective.

The fact is that if the top six were to go to auction today, almost everyone here would have a different opinion on which would be most coveted.

[IndrojitSircar]

Originally Posted by DKG

I find the bulk of 540's ugly, downright ugly. But they figure right up at the top.

So its too subjective when you start factoring desirability based on personal choices.

To freeze this list I recommend we stick to pricing of the car based on what it would command in the international market as the measure of the car's desirability and eligibility to make it to the top 10 collectible cars in India

What say?

Fine then lets do that.Then other thing we can do is we select any 3 internatinal auctions on the basis of which we will put forward the pricing. Suppose the first one says the price of a particular car is 10 , the second says its 12 and the thrid say its 11, then we will take the average (10+11+12/3) as the value of the car.What do you think ?

So guys then what are the 3 auctions we want to follow ? I would think -

1). RM Auctions

2). Pebble Beach

3). Kruse International

If anyone think of something else please suggest.

Originally Posted by Faster789

Two stages at this point.

Stage 1.

The top six as propounded by DKG in an earlier list are the cream of the crop. In terms of values realised at auction (and therefore collectivity) the top six in order are:

1. 540K
2. 500K
3. Bentley 8 Litre (McKenzie)
4. Bentley 8 Litre (stock)
5. Delahaye 135 M
6. Daimler Double Six
7. Rollys Royce Silver Ghost (Nizam)

How about adding the Mercedes 630K to this list ? What is the international value ?

Originally Posted by Faster789

I appreciate that this list may cause controversy, but it is stage 1. Stage one will be complete when four more cars added. If that can't be done by the end of today, then I would suggest the mods form a poll on the basis of the six cars. Please use only RM or reputed auction values to keep things as empirical as possible.

I think we should give it 2 days time since half of today is already over then we also have international members posting in and due to the time difference they might miss it so lets give it a bit of time.

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

Very rarely do prices get affected by the condition of the car in this league. Most racings Alfa's are still with dings and paint chipping and owners seem to like it that way. They trade at obscene prices !

Those are the racing cars that have the original patinas like Fangios 250f, the Testarossa that won LeMans, etc. This car was originally red when in Coburns' ownership and was black when I viewed it. It was re-painted before Evans' ownership and is therefore not the original paint. In any event it has zero racing history and these kinds of cars are often concours winners. I believe it is up for eminent sale if it hasn't changed hands already. The ower is consolidating his collection to buy something specatacular. This could only be a GTO or something at that level. Most likely to be a Ferrari considering it's what he specialises in.

Originally Posted by IndrojitSircar

2). Pebble Beach

Is a Concours event, that sometimes (more often than not) has an associated auction. This, however, is not run by Pebble Beach but buy an auction house.

I would suggest:

1. RM
2. Bonhams
3. Sothebys

If you really want 3 auction houses. This would be problematic I think and cause more anomalies without an undestanding of why. All we need is an indication in my opinion which we have from RM.

[DKG]

I think the list we seem to have come up is very fair. Its quite sensible to use auction prices to assess the value of cars. Cars like AX 201 or the Nizam's RR for that matter will never come up for auction (atleast I don't foresee it in my lifetime) so their evaluations are speculative at best. There is no doubt they are multi million dollar cars.

Good going guys. Lets not fret too much about prioritising the order. As some cars have never been up for auction to determine their ranking. But like Faster recommended lets blend the objective with the subjective with a popularity poll. And the collective view of a poll no doubt has more weight than one person's subjective view.

Lets rack our brains to see if India has any more million dollar cars to take the list up to ten? What about the Gurney Nutting Continental? It just might? I am biased because I like that car too much, way too much to be objective. What do you guys feel?

Indrojit you also have a major new player in auction houses, Gooding and Company. They recently auctioned the awesome Otis Chandler collection. You guys must check out the phenomenal collection Otis had built up. Simply fabulous.

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

What about the Gurney Nutting Continental? It just might? I am biased because I like that car too much, way too much to be objective. What do you guys feel?

Pretty car but that's about where the buck stops unfortunately. It's not a W.O Bentley and no Bentley made after the Rolls buyout will ever come near to the value of Walter's original stuff.

The 3.5 litre is probably worth less than $200,000. Pity, because it's a beautiful car, even had it's a Bond movie appearance. However, the fact remains it's a Rolls Bentley and that is that really.

The Cord is another lovely machine, but will never be worth the big money. Mallyas Bugatti is again, pretty, but a minor Bugatti. Hispanos worth slightly more but in the end not the same league.

As I said before, a quick glance at the list tells me there aren't ten $1m cars. But I am happy to be proved wrong.

The Delage and Lagondas are probably the closest to the $1m mark, though they probably fall short by about 300,000 - 600,000 (Delage being slightly more collectible with its eccentric coachbuilding I would think).

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Faster789

It's not a W.O Bentley and no Bentley made after the Rolls buyout will ever come near to the value of Walter's original stuff.

No Faster789, I am referring to the Rolls Royce PII Continental. The last of the Continentals (only 278 made). The 2 DHC's made will most certainly be million dollar cars. Not sure about this one, but like I said I am too biased about this one. Its one of the most awesome RR's I have ever seen. Too stylish

[Faster789]

Originally Posted by DKG

No Faster789, I am referring to the Rolls Royce PII Continental. The last of the Continentals (only 278 made). The 2 DHC's made will most certainly be million dollar cars. Not sure about this one, but like I said I am too biased about this one. Its one of the most awesome RR's I have ever seen. Too stylish

Ah, I see. I read Gurney Nutting and stopped reading the rest. Sorry.

A million for a RR DHC PII? I think not! Gurney Nuting desirable, but Vanden Plas' have gone for far less than a million.

RR PII is looking around the $500,000 mark I should think, at the most.