Classic Rolls Royces in India

speedy · 20th July 2008, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Great Speedy, if you refer to these books you will see that we are having a little difficulty with digesting the following from your list
RR
1919 Rolls Royce Buggy ? Silver Ghost?
1926 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 ? Made from 1929-1936
1926 Rolls Royce Phamtom 3? Made from 1936-1939
1932 Rolls Royce Phantom 3 ? Made from 1936-1939
1933 Rolls Royce 20 hp? Made from 1922-1929
1933 Rolls Royce Phantom 3? Made from 1936-1939
1946/48 Rolls Royce Mark 4? Phantom IV 1950-1956

Bentley
1932 Bentley 8ltr ? Made 1930-1931
1937 Bentley 20-25? Rolls-Royce 20-25?

i realised that later Julian after i had posted the list. that like i said was from memory so the eaxt yrs are not there. when i am in Bombay next i shall go through the books and get the details. the buggy is what i call the car rom childhood so its sort of stuck on

, it is the silver ghost. the pictures are posted on the site.

DKG · 20th July 2008, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

It would be helpful for people (like me) who really dont know much about vintage cars at all.

Rehaan actually if we wish to really make the material more user friendly we need to move a bit away from the forum and add pages that exclusively are dedicated to marques in India. Let me explain. For example lets take Rolls Royces. We have the Ghosts, followed by the Phantom I, then II's, then III's and so on. Simultaneously we had the baby Rolls or the 20 HP followed by the 20/25 and the 25/30 etc the Wraith and then the Silver Wraith and Dawn etc.

What we need is marque wise, model wise, year wise pages which would be a pictorial cum info guide.

I'll make it simpler to understand. Please visit Concept Carz and Prototype Vehicles Its the ultimate reference site for me. Would love to see TBHP develop something like that as a reference guide. Coupled with the forum that would be one versatile mix. Do consider, as the data is getting lost in threads and its just not user friendly to sift through all the posts to get a bigger picture on cars in India

Julian UK · 20th July 2008, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Julian,

It would be great if you could post that on the forum!

Give me a week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy

when i am in Bombay next i shall go through the books and get the details.

Great Speedy, it will be very interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKG

What we need is marque wise, model wise, year wise pages which would be a pictorial cum info guide.

But just use photos of India cars to maintain this delightful India only theme

Julian UK · 20th July 2008, 17:30

Here is a photo and an enlargement of 1937 Phantom III 3BU120 Windovers Saloon.
Note the symmetry, even of the 3 guys up on the top ledge.

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3bu120-1937-windovers-saloon.jpg

Photos courtesy of the family of the previous owner.

anjan_c2007 · 20th July 2008, 20:06

Great to see the so well kept Rolls Royces of yore Julian UK.

Roger OZ · 21st July 2008, 11:37

Further to the excellent photos of some of the Bhogilal cars posted by karlosdeville, here is another photo of 1923 20 hp Hooper 2-seater 85K6.

It is reproduced courtesy of Mr. Channa Daswatte of the Geoffrey Bawa Trust, Colombo, Sri Lanka.

Not being able to remove the print from its frame, I had to photograph it through glass while trying to minimise reflections. Also note the non-standard radiator mascot - not the usual Rolls-Royce 'Spirit of Ecstasy' ('Flying Lady').

The late Geoffrey Bawa was a world-renowned Sri Lankan architect, who is believed to have owned at least five Rolls-Royce cars at various periods (not all at once, and not all in Sri Lanka).

When I last met Mr. Bawa in Colombo in December 1991 (he passed away in May 2003 at the age of 83), he told me that while living and working in Chennai on a long-term design and construction project for the Connemara Hotel in the mid-1970s, he bought 85K6 as well as the former Mysore 1949 Silver Wraith Hooper saloon WGC31. He even showed me small black-and-white prints of both cars, including one of the pair posed together. But Bawa was evidently prevented by bureaucracy from taking the two Rolls-Royces from India across to Sri Lanka, so he sold them before returning to Colombo.

Steve Stuckey · 21st July 2008, 12:33

Firstly, apologies for my silence for the last week - I have been away from my computer and my files.

Secondly, re post 503 - these are the same car (3BU134), looking so much better in cream than in the awful red it now is in the USA.

Thirdly, re post 515, which seems to indicate that Mr Bhogilal owns 8 Phantom IIIs - I would be very surprised if it is that many. I only know of three.

Fourthly, the next Phantom III in our list of cars that went to India. Chassis 3BU82 left the Derby factory on 1 February 1937, fitted with engine R38J. Interestingly, the chassis was designated for use in the UK only. The chassis was ordered by Hooper & Co. (the coachbuilders) on 11 August 1936, via the agent Newman. They built a sedanca de ville body on the chassis, with body number 8789 to design 6928; the only other car of this design was on chassis 3CP170, a car now in Australia. It was fitted with a spare wheel to each side. The car cost 2,976 pounds.

On 10 May 1937 the car was delivered, with English registration UF1. The car was to be supplied to Rani Jasmer Kaur (born Longowalia), the Dowager Maharani of Nabha; she was the widow of the Maharaja who had died in 1911. Her address in the RR records is given as 13 Lewes Crescent in Brighton, Sussex. In the newspaper the "Sussex Daily News" of 12 May 1937 is a photo of the car (which I only have a bad photocopy of) with the Maharani and the caption: "The Maharanee of Nabha entering the new Rolls-Royce car which the distinguished visitor will use on the Coronation procession, and which has just been supplied by Newman's, the local people."

I do not know when the car was sent to India; the next owner I have recorded is Shahaji C Angre in India in 1967. It is now owned by Pranlal Bhogilal, registered MMY.1937. Photos of the car appeared in the Feb 16 2002 electronic publication "Business Standard Motoring". See post 96 in this thread.

The attached photo is dated 1965.

karlosdeville · 21st July 2008, 13:02

For continuity sake, here is the car from the BS motoring article.

DKG · 21st July 2008, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger OZ

former Mysore 1949 Silver Wraith Hooper saloon WGC31

Post 16 lists this car for your viewing pleasure

Julian UK · 21st July 2008, 20:21

A thank you to the mods for rearranging the sections.
There is a variety of manuals, handbooks, wiring diagrams and technical information for Rolls-Royces and Bentleys available online from the Australian club on this site. Hope it helps somebody.
The Rolls

Steve Stuckey · 22nd July 2008, 12:24

This is another of those really special Rolls-Royces that went to India. The chassis was sent off test on 23 January 1937, fitted with engine number B38A and steering at the low F rake. It was designed for use in India for fast touring.

The chassis was sent to Thrupp & Maberly on the day it left the factory. The built a sports 4-seater (according to RR records) or a sports cabriolet according to Thrupp & Maberly; it was their body number 6561 to drawing SLE.1188/A. The car was finished in dark blue over black with a bluish-grey tropical duckhood top. The upholstery was in dark blue leather throughout. There was a spare wheel mounted at the rear in a metal cover, and the rear wheels had spats attached to the rear wings. There was a small blue light mounted to the centre of the scuttle, and a second radiator cap fitted with a flag staff. The body cost 725 pounds, and the total car was 2,698 pounds.

The car was ordered by Allied Motors Ltd in Bombay by cable on 29 February 1936 for their client Nawab Hamidullah Khan of Bhopal (9 September 1894 - 4 February 1960); he was the 12th Nawab and succeeded his mother (who abdicated) on 17 May 1926. His car carried English registration DXH4, and was delivered to the docks for shipping to India on 16 April 1937.

The Nawab had owned Silver Ghosts 76RM (Hooper tourer), 59TM (Barker tourer) and 72AU (Barker cabriolet), Phantom I 97MC (Hooper cabriolet) and Bentley 4.25 litre B77MX (H J Mulliner drophead coupe). 97MC was traded in on the Phantom III for 7,000 rupees.

Allied Motors had the car for sale in India in January 1939 for 1,500 pounds (a large drop in value in just two years), and in 1940 it was sold to the Maharaja of Patiala.

In October 1963 the car was sold to Kenneth Sherper in Virginia, USA and today is owned by his son Keith Sherper.

I have not seen a good enough photo of this car to be able to tell whether the body was the same general design as that placed as the second body on 3AZ178 for the Maharaja of Darbhanga (see post 430). The photos here are dated October 1964.

DKG · 22nd July 2008, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Stuckey

This is another of those really special Rolls-Royces that went to India.

Wow a convertible coupe PIII ! Wonder why the Prince got rid of it so soon? Troublesome V12? I guess compared to his Merc SS and the 6 1/2 litre Bentley this may have fallen short on his expectations?

Lovely car all the same. Wish we had a side profile of this beauty.

Julian UK · 22nd July 2008, 18:14

I cannot remember where this photo of PIII 3BU86 came from but I am going to upload it anyway. It may have already been posted here on the forum.

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3bu86-1937-thrupp-maberly-bhopal.jpg

Just to get them next to each other here's Steve's photo of 3AZ178 2nd body Thrupp & Maberly Darbhanga

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3az178-piii-rebodied-thrupp-maberly-maharaja-derbanga-ex-barker-limousine-1970.jpg

Julian UK · 23rd July 2008, 03:06

As requested by several members and mods I hope some will be interested, it is a work in progress and open to modification. If it doesn't help anyone please PM me and we can develop it to suit it's audience. This is a BASIC guide to recognising a Silver Ghost and to what era it was manufactured. There are great depths of detail interpretation regarding different coachbuilders which I am also learning about. I don't proclaim myself to be an "expert" I'm not, but I don't see anyone else trying to help the forum in this area. Thanks to Park Ward for giving it a check.
If you click on it twice it should appear in viewable format. (It does here, if not can the mods please adjust it?)

Part 1 The Silver Ghost

Classic Rolls Royces in India-silver-ghost-guide.jpg

Images courtesy of team-bhp, me and the engine photos borrowed from conceptcarz.com
I hereby grant myself permission to post my photos

Steve Stuckey · 23rd July 2008, 03:25

Julian
Excellent photo of 3BU86. MANY thanks; it does look very similar to 3AZ178, although its door is very small! If anyone else has any more photos of this car that would be great.

20th July 2008, 17:30	#544
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 259 Times	Here is a photo and an enlargement of 1937 Phantom III 3BU120 Windovers Saloon. Note the symmetry, even of the 3 guys up on the top ledge. Photos courtesy of the family of the previous owner.
	(1) Thanks

20th July 2008, 20:06	#545
anjan_c2007 Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: India Posts: 8,661 Thanked: 22,575 Times View My Garage	Great to see the so well kept Rolls Royces of yore Julian UK.
	() Thanks

21st July 2008, 11:37	#546
Roger OZ BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 33 Thanked: 53 Times	20 hp 85K6 Further to the excellent photos of some of the Bhogilal cars posted by karlosdeville, here is another photo of 1923 20 hp Hooper 2-seater 85K6. It is reproduced courtesy of Mr. Channa Daswatte of the Geoffrey Bawa Trust, Colombo, Sri Lanka. Not being able to remove the print from its frame, I had to photograph it through glass while trying to minimise reflections. Also note the non-standard radiator mascot - not the usual Rolls-Royce 'Spirit of Ecstasy' ('Flying Lady'). The late Geoffrey Bawa was a world-renowned Sri Lankan architect, who is believed to have owned at least five Rolls-Royce cars at various periods (not all at once, and not all in Sri Lanka). When I last met Mr. Bawa in Colombo in December 1991 (he passed away in May 2003 at the age of 83), he told me that while living and working in Chennai on a long-term design and construction project for the Connemara Hotel in the mid-1970s, he bought 85K6 as well as the former Mysore 1949 Silver Wraith Hooper saloon WGC31. He even showed me small black-and-white prints of both cars, including one of the pair posed together. But Bawa was evidently prevented by bureaucracy from taking the two Rolls-Royces from India across to Sri Lanka, so he sold them before returning to Colombo. Attached Thumbnails
	(1) Thanks

21st July 2008, 12:33	#547
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 141 Thanked: 276 Times	Phantom III 3BU82 Firstly, apologies for my silence for the last week - I have been away from my computer and my files. Secondly, re post 503 - these are the same car (3BU134), looking so much better in cream than in the awful red it now is in the USA. Thirdly, re post 515, which seems to indicate that Mr Bhogilal owns 8 Phantom IIIs - I would be very surprised if it is that many. I only know of three. Fourthly, the next Phantom III in our list of cars that went to India. Chassis 3BU82 left the Derby factory on 1 February 1937, fitted with engine R38J. Interestingly, the chassis was designated for use in the UK only. The chassis was ordered by Hooper & Co. (the coachbuilders) on 11 August 1936, via the agent Newman. They built a sedanca de ville body on the chassis, with body number 8789 to design 6928; the only other car of this design was on chassis 3CP170, a car now in Australia. It was fitted with a spare wheel to each side. The car cost 2,976 pounds. On 10 May 1937 the car was delivered, with English registration UF1. The car was to be supplied to Rani Jasmer Kaur (born Longowalia), the Dowager Maharani of Nabha; she was the widow of the Maharaja who had died in 1911. Her address in the RR records is given as 13 Lewes Crescent in Brighton, Sussex. In the newspaper the "Sussex Daily News" of 12 May 1937 is a photo of the car (which I only have a bad photocopy of) with the Maharani and the caption: "The Maharanee of Nabha entering the new Rolls-Royce car which the distinguished visitor will use on the Coronation procession, and which has just been supplied by Newman's, the local people." I do not know when the car was sent to India; the next owner I have recorded is Shahaji C Angre in India in 1967. It is now owned by Pranlal Bhogilal, registered MMY.1937. Photos of the car appeared in the Feb 16 2002 electronic publication "Business Standard Motoring". See post 96 in this thread. The attached photo is dated 1965. Attached Thumbnails
	(3) Thanks

21st July 2008, 13:02	#548
karlosdeville Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 12,094 Thanked: 18,747 Times View My Garage	For continuity sake, here is the car from the BS motoring article. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images
	() Thanks

21st July 2008, 20:21	#550
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 259 Times	A thank you to the mods for rearranging the sections. There is a variety of manuals, handbooks, wiring diagrams and technical information for Rolls-Royces and Bentleys available online from the Australian club on this site. Hope it helps somebody. The Rolls
	() Thanks

22nd July 2008, 12:24	#551
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 141 Thanked: 276 Times	Phantom III 3BU86 This is another of those really special Rolls-Royces that went to India. The chassis was sent off test on 23 January 1937, fitted with engine number B38A and steering at the low F rake. It was designed for use in India for fast touring. The chassis was sent to Thrupp & Maberly on the day it left the factory. The built a sports 4-seater (according to RR records) or a sports cabriolet according to Thrupp & Maberly; it was their body number 6561 to drawing SLE.1188/A. The car was finished in dark blue over black with a bluish-grey tropical duckhood top. The upholstery was in dark blue leather throughout. There was a spare wheel mounted at the rear in a metal cover, and the rear wheels had spats attached to the rear wings. There was a small blue light mounted to the centre of the scuttle, and a second radiator cap fitted with a flag staff. The body cost 725 pounds, and the total car was 2,698 pounds. The car was ordered by Allied Motors Ltd in Bombay by cable on 29 February 1936 for their client Nawab Hamidullah Khan of Bhopal (9 September 1894 - 4 February 1960); he was the 12th Nawab and succeeded his mother (who abdicated) on 17 May 1926. His car carried English registration DXH4, and was delivered to the docks for shipping to India on 16 April 1937. The Nawab had owned Silver Ghosts 76RM (Hooper tourer), 59TM (Barker tourer) and 72AU (Barker cabriolet), Phantom I 97MC (Hooper cabriolet) and Bentley 4.25 litre B77MX (H J Mulliner drophead coupe). 97MC was traded in on the Phantom III for 7,000 rupees. Allied Motors had the car for sale in India in January 1939 for 1,500 pounds (a large drop in value in just two years), and in 1940 it was sold to the Maharaja of Patiala. In October 1963 the car was sold to Kenneth Sherper in Virginia, USA and today is owned by his son Keith Sherper. I have not seen a good enough photo of this car to be able to tell whether the body was the same general design as that placed as the second body on 3AZ178 for the Maharaja of Darbhanga (see post 430). The photos here are dated October 1964. Attached Thumbnails
	(2) Thanks

22nd July 2008, 18:14	#553
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 259 Times	I cannot remember where this photo of PIII 3BU86 came from but I am going to upload it anyway. It may have already been posted here on the forum. Just to get them next to each other here's Steve's photo of 3AZ178 2nd body Thrupp & Maberly Darbhanga Last edited by Julian UK : 22nd July 2008 at 18:20.
	(1) Thanks

23rd July 2008, 03:06	#554
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 259 Times	As requested by several members and mods I hope some will be interested, it is a work in progress and open to modification. If it doesn't help anyone please PM me and we can develop it to suit it's audience. This is a BASIC guide to recognising a Silver Ghost and to what era it was manufactured. There are great depths of detail interpretation regarding different coachbuilders which I am also learning about. I don't proclaim myself to be an "expert" I'm not, but I don't see anyone else trying to help the forum in this area. Thanks to Park Ward for giving it a check. If you click on it twice it should appear in viewable format. (It does here, if not can the mods please adjust it?) Part 1 The Silver Ghost Images courtesy of team-bhp, me and the engine photos borrowed from conceptcarz.com I hereby grant myself permission to post my photos Last edited by Julian UK : 23rd July 2008 at 03:15.
	(1) Thanks

23rd July 2008, 03:25	#555
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 141 Thanked: 276 Times	Re 3BU86 Julian Excellent photo of 3BU86. MANY thanks; it does look very similar to 3AZ178, although its door is very small! If anyone else has any more photos of this car that would be great.
	() Thanks