[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Great find Travencore, a picture is worth a thousand words etc. Autolit.com seem to keep their secrets well hidden, as does chassisregister.com

I am sure that there are many who might say that the present condition of the car is the most valid historical record of this car as it was altered so long ago and maybe it is better left as it is or restored to the "style" as shown in Travencore's photo as a complete restoration to its 1911/12 condition might be impractical and less worthy of preservation than the Silver Jubilee condition which at least has a great deal of genuine history associated with it despite its rather "unusual" style. Better a Silver Jubilee relic than an attempt to re-create the factory condition with possible budget limitations??

Where did they get those mudguards from?

This is a very interesting point you have raised. This car obviously reflects the personal preferences of the Nizam even when it was ordered new. Its most unlike any car Barker would have built generally and is clearly a one of kind RR. Now the question that arises then is since the customer had so much to do with the original design specifications would that make it significant that he chose to make further alterations to suit his preferences?

Further the Silver Jubilee celebrations were a major event in Hyderabad marking 25 years of a rule that saw Hyderabad developed as no other state in India, with hospitals, courts, libraries, railways, postal dept, airways, major irrigation projects etc to mark achievements

There are several thousand RR Ghosts in the world. What makes this an extraordinary RR is the fact it was ordered and specified to reflect the preferences of the customer, the Nizam of Hyderabad. The customer therefore has a major role in the vehicle's creation. So would the subsequent alteration however odd remain a significant part of the car?

The modifications to this car constitute a significant part of the Silver Jubillee preparations and hence reflect a historical event. The article was such interesting reading reflecting the Nizam's mood to not waste money. He could have ordered a dozen RR's had he wished. But instead he chose to spend only $500 to modify a car which he cared to use for only 300 miles in 26 years!!!
Its also apparent that as a head of state this car was so insignificant to him. His use of the car reflects how low down in his priorities using the RR was.

Personally I would prefer to see the car going back to the original Barker body (I think it was so beautifully proportioned and executed)

But the Nizam with all his eccentricities is someone very special too and historically very significant. As the car reflects his preferences perhaps Julian's suggestion to leave the car as is is appropriate? Further the car remains a significant part of the Silver Jubilee function and captures the mood (for frugality) and preparation

What do you guys feel?

This is an interesting discussion I am open to both views and hope we can collectively agree on something which honours history. Remember we cannot undo the Silver Jubilee event. The car in its present form reflects that event. I can then attempt to prevail on the owners to leave it as is or embark on returning it to its original iteration

PS: On the same score would it not make sense to leave the Udaipur RR's modified as a Jeep and a truck as is, since it reflects the preferences of the owner in that time?

Also what about leaving the Nizam's cars untouched? I kind of like the aged look. I think they'd look so tacky all brightly finished and polished. Old ladies look best when they remain old ladies and not try to pretend to look young and fresh. What say?

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Where did they get those mudguards from?

From the shape of the front fender as it meets the floor board it appears very similar to those found on the Gurney Nutting 20/25's like BRG 1. What other cars would've had a similar ridge?

[Julian UK]

Just to get them both together and roughly the same size. The wheels have been changed though and the rear end of the bonnet has been raised.

[travancore]

Originally Posted by DKG

Also what about leaving the Nizam's cars untouched? I kind of like the aged look. I think they'd look so tacky all brightly finished and polished. Old ladies look best when they remain old ladies and not try to pretend to look young and fresh. What say?

My personal preference would be to leave the car as it is, with just enough cosmetic work done to remove obvious paint loss, dents and dings etc. I agree that the Silver Jubilee was a significant event and any associations with it be maintained.

With the technology / chemistry we have these days, do what you can to "preserve" whatever is left for future generations

Glad I could contribute a little to the significant work you are undertaking DKG!

[Julian UK]

But it has become an ugly monstrosity

[travancore]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

But it has become an ugly monstrosity

I couldn't agree with you more! However, maybe it is better to leave 70 years of history alone. Or think of it this way....at least it will save our grandchilden some aggravation (in 2020) having to dig through Team-BHP threads from a quarter century ago or Autocar issues from a century ago trying to figure out what it looked like!

[DKG]

A big thanks to the TBHP team for separating the Vintage Cars section. If only we could have the Pre War and Post War classification that would enable viewers to sift through data that interests them more efficiently. Kindly consider if that's not asking too much.

Thanks once again

Julian what's the correct rim size for Barker London Edinburgh Ghosts?

[travancore]

Originally Posted by DKG

A big thanks to the TBHP team for separating the Vintage Cars section. If only we could have the Pre War and Post War classification that would enable viewers to sift through data that interests them more efficiently. Kindly consider if that's not asking too much.

Thanks once again

Julian what's the correct rim size for Barker London Edinburgh Ghosts?

Hi DKG, know you asked the question of Julian (the obvious expert), but here goes what I could find out:

Per "RR-75 years of MoToring Excellence" by Edward Eves:

Tyre sizes
(1907): Front: 880x120 or 895x135 ;
and Rear: 875x105 or 880x120

Tyre sizes (1914): 895x135
=================
Per The RR Motor Car and Bentley since 1931 (Bird & Hallows):

Wheels:
Normally artillery pattern with wood spokes (1909, double-spoked wire wheels available, but wooden artillery wheels normal)

1911: triple-spoked wire wheels available, but wooden atrillery wheels more usual

1913: wire wheels prevail, but artillery wheels available until 1921 - end of "P" series

Tyres:Front

1907: Short: 875x105; Long: 880x120
1914: 895x135

Tyres: Rear

1907: Short: 880x120; Long: 895x135
1914: 895x135

Unfortunately, I cannot find anything specific on tyres/wheels for the L-E or 1911-12 !
Also note the disconnect between the two sources on one of the 1907 tyre sizes (880x120 seems to be consistent)

[Julian UK]

Travencore has supplied the relevant information.
A rough idea as to the cost of correcting 895 X 135 wheels
Tyres
895 X 135 = £446.00 = 35,395.06 each X 5 =Rs.1,76,975
Vintage Tyres: dunlop

Tubes
895X135 = Rs 2,698.28 each X 5 = Rs.13,491
Vintage Tyres: Tubes for 895x135 CAR TYRE: ROAD: CHEVRON

Rims
Wire wheels - Specialised Automobile Services, England UK
New bead-edged rims 895 X135 = £182.50 = Rs14,483.40 each X 5 = Rs 72417

Spokes Rs. 20000 roughly
Tyres Rs.1,76,975
Tubes Rs 13,491
Rims Rs 72417.
Rs. 2,82,883
Plus shipping and import duty
+ Cost of the expertise to build them and fit the tyres (not easy).

[DKG]

Thanks Travancore and Julian.

I just hope I am successful in prevailing on the owners to do an authentic restoration or simply leave them as is. I am very clear that any other attempt would ruin the appearance of these cars.

Fortunately the Princess who is overseeing the work is very fastidious and considering she has had a team come down from Italy to work on the wooden flooring in one of the palaces chances are she will either do justice or leave the cars as is. Already she had John Fasal come down to see the cars and give his opinion, so!

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by DKG

Thanks Travancore and Julian.

I just hope I am successful in prevailing on the owners to do an authentic restoration or simply leave them as is. I am very clear that any other attempt would ruin the appearance of these cars.

Fortunately the Princess who is overseeing the work is very fastidious and considering she has had a team come down from Italy to work on the wooden flooring in one of the palaces chances are she will either do justice or leave the cars as is. Already she had John Fasal come down to see the cars and give his opinion, so!

If their budget allows, once and for all, the Nizam's Throne Rolls-Royce ought to be sent to one of the serious companies and returned to the original splendour of the Nizam's purchase.
What has occured since was undertaken by railway workers on a whim and in my humble opinion the result doesn't really warrent preservation.
Why preserve a moment of historic folly at the expense of losing a magnificent example of a 97 year old year old masterpiece, which in fact was a very balanced and elegant creation by Barkers and has been horribly corrupted. The next step might have been fitting a earth moving shovel at the front and fitting a Caterpillar engine.
Now I'll be accused of expecting a commission from the restorers which I don't do nor have I ever. You can't win.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

If their budget allows, once and for all, the Nizam's Throne Rolls-Royce ought to be sent to one of the serious companies and returned to the original splendour of the Nizam's purchase.

I am inclined to agree. Had the Nizam commisioned a reputed body maker to upgrade the car the story may have been different. But yes the car in its original form most certainly is a balanced and elegant form. She does deserve to go back to her former glory.

Before returning the car to its former glory we can professionally photograph the car in its present form and create a photo display to document what transpired during the 1937 celebrations. That way we retain a record educating the public on the life and times of 2117

[karlosdeville]

After much thought I too would like to see it as per factory specs. While Im always fascinated by period local coachwork, in this case I dont suppose it needs to be retained. I suppose the bits of altered body can be retained seperately anyways.

Otherwise, dont touch the car.

[Julian UK]

Here's a little picture from an old Rolls-Royce sales advertisement:

[Julian UK]

Barker PIII

Ancient Flying Lady magazine