Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD I know prices are a big grey area when it comes to classics, but Just to know, what would be a fair price to pay for a Barely running Ponton needing a lot of work, and for a nice mint one? similarly for a Heckflosse? |
JayD, my 2 cents:
Poor condition, lots of parts and bodywork required and an engine rebuild:
Pontons: 50k to 2 lakhs
Fintails: 50k to 1.5 lakhs
Average condition with sound engine, needing some bodywork, some mechanical overhauling and some trim parts
Pontons - 1.5 to 3 lakhs
Fintails - 1 to 2 lakhs
Sound body, mechanically straight and running but some trim parts required along with full cosmetic job (paint, chrome etc)
Pontons - 3 to 6 lakhs
Fintails - 2 to 4 lakhs
Mechanically straight, all trims present but in need of a cosmetic job to take it to good condition
Pontons - 6 to 8 lakhs
Fintails - 4 to 6 lakhs
Good condition needing no work unless you want it to be a notch higher and take it to mint condition
Pontons - 8 to 10 lakhs
Fintails - 6 to 8 lakhs
Restored to show standard with no work required whatsoever
Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs
Fintails - 9 to 12 lakhs?
Excellent original condition without having undergone a full restoration
Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs plus (I think The Mole's car would fall into this category
Fintails - 12 (?) lakhs plus
Let me try and qualify some of what I've stated above.
I've pegged the starting values of both Pontons and Fintails in bad condition around the same. I should think this is fair because 50k is a rock bottom price today for nearly any old car that can be salvaged. I scrapped a 1996 Esteem for 20k!
The values between Pontons and Fintails in progressively better condition begin to widen simply because there were fewer Pontons that came into India compared to Fintails. This combined with the higher survival rate of Fintails leaves even fewer Pontons (relatively) around today. Limited supply with higher interest results in higher prices in good condition.
I find the survival ratio interesting and have a theory. You see, the very design element that made the Ponton unique during its time for a Mercedes Benz, was its unitary construction. However, unlike true monocoque construction the Ponton structure was basically a hollow frame welded together with the sheet metal. Like a nondetachable chassis. Moisture could easily get trapped in these cavities all over the structure especially in our climate leading to a slow rot from within. Owners must have junked a lot of the cars which were too far gone. The Fintails on the other hand were more a true monocoque with rigid pressings and far less frame sections. This may account for the difference in survival rates. Besides, the Fintails were modern looking and faster.
Some points to consider:
A full engine rebuild for a Ponton would set you back between 70k to a lakh. A Fintail less. Reason being that some Fintail NOS parts are available here while much less is available for Pontons. One has to import these parts which are usually expensive (A casualty of the 190SL having a very similar engine to the 4 cyl petrol Pontons). So if you find a Ponton with a good engine, you should expect to pay more.
A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable between the 2 models and some Fintail parts can be adapted for use in Pontons. You can still get NOS Fintail suspension and brakes parts here so if a Ponton requires major mechanical overhaul, don't be too worried (unless you're a stickler for originality in which case you should be very worried!).
Trims and cosmetic are very different in most cases between the 2 models. Some parts may appear the same but aren't. An example are the triangular indicator assemblies on the fenders of 4 cylinder Pontons and 190 Fintails - externally they are identical but take them off and compare and you'll see that the opening at the base for the wiring in the Fintail's is much larger meaning you'd have to cut a bit of your Ponton fender for it to fit! Off hand, the only cosmetic part I can think of which are common are the round headlamp lenses and hubcaps though later Pontons (the one's with the wider grilles) had interior bits such as dash switches which were the same on Fintails.
As far as I'm aware, trim parts are scarcely available here for both models so missing items will need to be imported. Here's where the difference really starts to build up and there are fewer vendors worldwide for Pontons compared to Fintails. MB themselves stock and make a higher number of Fintail parts. One reason could be more of the original dyes for the latter are around. Second, there are a lot more Fintails worldwide to justify more parts production which can therefore be priced lower.
My theory for higher Ponton parts pricing is that it's simply a casuality of being produced alongside the 300SL Gullwing/Roadster, 300 Adenauers and 300S cabrios/coupes and the 190SL. These were the pinnacle of what was available in the 1950's. Not one series production sports car came close to a 300SL in terms of speed and technology. The 300 sedans and 2 doors were built to the highest standards and exuded quality. At the same time they were complex cars with self leveling rear suspension and fuel injection in later models. The 190SL on the other hand is a Ponton in sportscar guise but it's outward similarity to the 300SL has, over the last 5 years, catapulted prices at international auctions to over $150,000 for top cars! Now parts vendors and MB exploit this since some parts are common between the cars. Say a brake booster, it's identical in both a million dollar 300SL and a humble 4 cylinder Ponton. The price for a new piece from MB is Rs.1,10,000 (it's not a typo). MB may be pricing it such because they know that to a 300SL or even a 190SL owner this price won't be a factor. After all, why should a part be priced cheap when it's for a car valued at over a million dollars, just bad luck it's also identical in a Ponton! This can make a big difference in restoration costs so if you get a Ponton that needs no or very few trim parts than you should expect to pay higher as you're saving big bucks. Inversely, you should negotiate down the price of a Ponton hard if a lot of trim is required because replacements are very expensive and this I can say with certainty!
The amount of chrome in both cars is similar. A full re-chrome would set you back around 50k. A bare metal paint job would be around 30k, more if you want a heat chamber job with panels being painted individually.
Both cars have 13 inch wheels, don't fret if the car you want to buy has bad tyres as importing expensive tyres is not the only option. Maxxis 185/80R13 thin whitewall radials are a perfect substitute for both cars; radials were an original factory option even on Pontons!
And the last point about originality. As has been oft said, a car is original only once and therefore they should and do command the highest prices. I'm not talking about original in the sense of a barn find with paint peeling off, tattered upholstery, shot rubber parts etc. Those are simply dangerous to take on the road. These cases should be restored to be roadworthy. Originality must be useable and presentable otherwise it just comes across as badly maintained.
All the above that I've talked about applies only for 4 cylinder cars. Add perhaps 30% to 40% for 6 cylinder versions, maybe?
At the end of the day, there are too many variables to factor in as far as pricing is concerned but I have tried to provide a broad range of prices for different conditions.
Sorry JayD for the incessant babble. I started off by mentioning "2 cents worth"
Cheers,
mbz180