[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by SHAHBAAZ

Team,

I am looking out for a Dodge Kingsway 1956-57 model. Kindly help me in getting one. I am also interested in restoring if the condition is not good. My only purpose is to own one for occasional use.

Originally Posted by the mole

Yes it would have been for a good price if the original engine was there, however it has an Innova engine. Working your way up from here the car will cost around 10 lakhs. there are far better cars available for that price and you don't have to put in the efforts to restore those.

Agreed.

Now, Shahbaaz, here are the following cars-

1} GJA 4306. Formerly registered BYA something.
http://rajkot.olx.in/vintage-car-dod...#clm-in_rold-1

2} A 1956 Kingway.
http://rajkot.olx.in/vintage-car-dod...-iid-699000286

The name of the seller is interesting to say the least.

That said, if you don't quite mind Plymouths, (They're all the same cars, no?), there was BYH 2140 , a dark blue Plymouth in a garage somewhere near the Deccan Gymkhana. Of course, this was eight odd years ago. Now err....she seems to have vanished .

However, seeing pics of a recently restored blue Plymouth in Pune, I think that one might be BYH 2140.

A lead nevertheless. Now, I'll be attempting to trace the car again. Detective Fintail at work.

The suspect car-


Then, there was a black BML regd Dodge. Also, BYH 1917, black Plymouth. Think of it, weren't nearly all the Dodges in Pune black in colour, and BML registered. Think Dodge Kingsway, and Voila!

The car that comes to the mind is almost always a black BML Dodge. Strange,no?

Heck, Shahbaaz's gutted Dodge was also quite similar. Black, and BML.

The Dodge formula, what say?

[vinay kamath]

in need of a true blue restorer :

a reasonably priced w123 ( below 125,000)
she has a sunroof & is a 300D

http://chennai.olx.in/mercedes-benz-...-iid-741729387

under 70,000 for a Willys LHD

http://allahabad.olx.in/willy-jeep-iid-741221205

so elegant ..

http://chennai.olx.in/vintage-merced...-iid-740374655

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by vinay kamath

Why don't you buy the car from your Aunt? You are a youthful genuine Mercedes enthusiast and have a sentimental family value for this particular car. I fully agree with MBZ180 & Deutschefrikar about w123s being attractive having all these plus points and have the President's 200D of 1982 vintage. But, at the suggested price points, I would find a sparingly used Mercedes Ponton a lot more desirable. or even an R129 , as and if available , from any part of India.

If I were in your place, I would never allow this car from the family to be given away to anyone else.

Why Vinay, no offence intended, but your tone almost suggests a bit of sarcasm and disgust at the suggested prices! Like we should know better than to rattle off ridiculous price ideas.

A sparingly used Ponton at those prices, really? Show me where coz I have a few friends ready to buy!

[Philedonos]

Dear all

After a two year love affair I have decided to part with my Amby, faithful travel companion to the north and south of India and daily means of transport for the past 18 months.
You will find much information on my old thread "Daily traffic in a vintage car" in the vintage car forum.
If you are interested to give it a new home (I only consider people who have a garage, please), I'd be delighted to hear from you via email (dkt@gmx.at) or through a message on this Forum.
The price? I'd like to recover what I spent on it :-)
All the best,
Daniel

[JayD]

Originally Posted by mbz180

A sparingly used Ponton at those prices, really? Show me where coz I have a few friends ready to buy!

I know prices are a big grey area when it comes to classics, but Just to know, what would be a fair price to pay for a Barely running Ponton needing a lot of work, and for a nice mint one? similarly for a Heckflosse?

[Aston.Martin]

Originally Posted by mbz180

I agree with Canonball, do not sell this car cheap online. It maybe an automatic and a LHD but some enthusiasts look exactly for these variations because they are uncommon, if nothing else. Plus it's full US spec including the bigger bumpers.

For a car in this condition and the lovely original matching blue interiors, 1.5 to 2 lakhs is a joke. 5 lakhs, as the Mole has suggested, is a good price and as canonball has said, you may discover much better value privately.

If she's run a genuine 87k miles (being US spec I'm guessing it would show miles) then she can go on for atleast another 87k miles without needing an engine rebuild.

Do not undersell this car!

mbz180

Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar

I agree with mbz180. I spoke to a friend of mine in Bangalore who knows a thing or two about these cars and the market, I sent him the pics, he mentioned closer to 8.5 lacks down south for a car like this. . Said these cars can run and run forever...engines are bullet proof he said. And depending on the condition it could be a bit more too. So don't undersell and as the Mole says you're Aunt may want it to go to a good home... so don't be in a hurry. In such cases it's how dearly the buyer wants to own a car like this for you see there isn't another like it. And if he's a genuine buyer he won't let go of the opportunity for the fear of loosing out to someone else. Like MBZ he too said LHD and Auto is immaterial for a car like this
Best Regards

Originally Posted by vinay kamath

Why don't you buy the car from your Aunt? You are a youthful genuine Mercedes enthusiast and have a sentimental family value for this particular car. I fully agree with MBZ180 & Deutschefrikar about w123s being attractive having all these plus points and have the President's 200D of 1982 vintage. But, at the suggested price points, I would find a sparingly used Mercedes Ponton a lot more desirable. or even an R129 , as and if available , from any part of India.

If I were in your place, I would never allow this car from the family to be given away to anyone else.

Thanks everyone. I cannot afford to buy her now if I could I would have done that by now.

I will PM the contact details to all off you, Kindly let me know if there is anybody who is willing to take care of her, who knows her worth and can come up with a good offer..

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by JayD

I know prices are a big grey area when it comes to classics, but Just to know, what would be a fair price to pay for a Barely running Ponton needing a lot of work, and for a nice mint one? similarly for a Heckflosse?

JayD, my 2 cents:


Poor condition, lots of parts and bodywork required and an engine rebuild:

Pontons: 50k to 2 lakhs
Fintails: 50k to 1.5 lakhs

Average condition with sound engine, needing some bodywork, some mechanical overhauling and some trim parts

Pontons - 1.5 to 3 lakhs
Fintails - 1 to 2 lakhs

Sound body, mechanically straight and running but some trim parts required along with full cosmetic job (paint, chrome etc)

Pontons - 3 to 6 lakhs
Fintails - 2 to 4 lakhs

Mechanically straight, all trims present but in need of a cosmetic job to take it to good condition

Pontons - 6 to 8 lakhs
Fintails - 4 to 6 lakhs

Good condition needing no work unless you want it to be a notch higher and take it to mint condition

Pontons - 8 to 10 lakhs
Fintails - 6 to 8 lakhs

Restored to show standard with no work required whatsoever

Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs
Fintails - 9 to 12 lakhs?

Excellent original condition without having undergone a full restoration

Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs plus (I think The Mole's car would fall into this category

Fintails - 12 (?) lakhs plus

Let me try and qualify some of what I've stated above.

I've pegged the starting values of both Pontons and Fintails in bad condition around the same. I should think this is fair because 50k is a rock bottom price today for nearly any old car that can be salvaged. I scrapped a 1996 Esteem for 20k!

The values between Pontons and Fintails in progressively better condition begin to widen simply because there were fewer Pontons that came into India compared to Fintails. This combined with the higher survival rate of Fintails leaves even fewer Pontons (relatively) around today. Limited supply with higher interest results in higher prices in good condition.

I find the survival ratio interesting and have a theory. You see, the very design element that made the Ponton unique during its time for a Mercedes Benz, was its unitary construction. However, unlike true monocoque construction the Ponton structure was basically a hollow frame welded together with the sheet metal. Like a nondetachable chassis. Moisture could easily get trapped in these cavities all over the structure especially in our climate leading to a slow rot from within. Owners must have junked a lot of the cars which were too far gone. The Fintails on the other hand were more a true monocoque with rigid pressings and far less frame sections. This may account for the difference in survival rates. Besides, the Fintails were modern looking and faster.

Some points to consider:

A full engine rebuild for a Ponton would set you back between 70k to a lakh. A Fintail less. Reason being that some Fintail NOS parts are available here while much less is available for Pontons. One has to import these parts which are usually expensive (A casualty of the 190SL having a very similar engine to the 4 cyl petrol Pontons). So if you find a Ponton with a good engine, you should expect to pay more.

A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable between the 2 models and some Fintail parts can be adapted for use in Pontons. You can still get NOS Fintail suspension and brakes parts here so if a Ponton requires major mechanical overhaul, don't be too worried (unless you're a stickler for originality in which case you should be very worried!).

Trims and cosmetic are very different in most cases between the 2 models. Some parts may appear the same but aren't. An example are the triangular indicator assemblies on the fenders of 4 cylinder Pontons and 190 Fintails - externally they are identical but take them off and compare and you'll see that the opening at the base for the wiring in the Fintail's is much larger meaning you'd have to cut a bit of your Ponton fender for it to fit! Off hand, the only cosmetic part I can think of which are common are the round headlamp lenses and hubcaps though later Pontons (the one's with the wider grilles) had interior bits such as dash switches which were the same on Fintails.

As far as I'm aware, trim parts are scarcely available here for both models so missing items will need to be imported. Here's where the difference really starts to build up and there are fewer vendors worldwide for Pontons compared to Fintails. MB themselves stock and make a higher number of Fintail parts. One reason could be more of the original dyes for the latter are around. Second, there are a lot more Fintails worldwide to justify more parts production which can therefore be priced lower.

My theory for higher Ponton parts pricing is that it's simply a casuality of being produced alongside the 300SL Gullwing/Roadster, 300 Adenauers and 300S cabrios/coupes and the 190SL. These were the pinnacle of what was available in the 1950's. Not one series production sports car came close to a 300SL in terms of speed and technology. The 300 sedans and 2 doors were built to the highest standards and exuded quality. At the same time they were complex cars with self leveling rear suspension and fuel injection in later models. The 190SL on the other hand is a Ponton in sportscar guise but it's outward similarity to the 300SL has, over the last 5 years, catapulted prices at international auctions to over $150,000 for top cars! Now parts vendors and MB exploit this since some parts are common between the cars. Say a brake booster, it's identical in both a million dollar 300SL and a humble 4 cylinder Ponton. The price for a new piece from MB is Rs.1,10,000 (it's not a typo). MB may be pricing it such because they know that to a 300SL or even a 190SL owner this price won't be a factor. After all, why should a part be priced cheap when it's for a car valued at over a million dollars, just bad luck it's also identical in a Ponton! This can make a big difference in restoration costs so if you get a Ponton that needs no or very few trim parts than you should expect to pay higher as you're saving big bucks. Inversely, you should negotiate down the price of a Ponton hard if a lot of trim is required because replacements are very expensive and this I can say with certainty!

The amount of chrome in both cars is similar. A full re-chrome would set you back around 50k. A bare metal paint job would be around 30k, more if you want a heat chamber job with panels being painted individually.

Both cars have 13 inch wheels, don't fret if the car you want to buy has bad tyres as importing expensive tyres is not the only option. Maxxis 185/80R13 thin whitewall radials are a perfect substitute for both cars; radials were an original factory option even on Pontons!

And the last point about originality. As has been oft said, a car is original only once and therefore they should and do command the highest prices. I'm not talking about original in the sense of a barn find with paint peeling off, tattered upholstery, shot rubber parts etc. Those are simply dangerous to take on the road. These cases should be restored to be roadworthy. Originality must be useable and presentable otherwise it just comes across as badly maintained.

All the above that I've talked about applies only for 4 cylinder cars. Add perhaps 30% to 40% for 6 cylinder versions, maybe?

At the end of the day, there are too many variables to factor in as far as pricing is concerned but I have tried to provide a broad range of prices for different conditions.

Sorry JayD for the incessant babble. I started off by mentioning "2 cents worth"

Cheers,
mbz180

[vinay kamath]

Thanks MBZ180 for your informative helpful post. Actually your two cents are definitely my million dollars ! I love the special endearing look & curves of a Ponton , and have a hugely soft corner for one even if she is in a mediocre condition. If I had to spend three or five or eight or ten lacs, I would feel a lot better in my heart if I had invested in a Ponton as compared to other automobiles. In your chart, I prefer the Pontons costing 1.5 to 3 lacs . Working Ponton with clean papers. especially if acquired from a retiring owner who looked after the car for decades. Missed some excellent cars in the past for about 175,000 . Regret that even today.

Even a VW Beetle similarly captures my attention.

Besides, my valuations are quite conservative and not as high as those of others. Eventually I have found good cars all along as per my price range. Patience pays. Lately, there was a nice WB regd Ponton for about eight lacs. There were a couple of resolvable issues. Then I misplaced his cell number. So lost touch after an initial conversation. But he has a w123 car near my office. Will reconnect soon ! Let destiny rule.

I was not sarcastic in my earlier post. Sarcasm hurts. So no sarcasm for me.

thanks again MBZ 180!

PS : No hard feelings , Aston Martin ? You may miss your w123 after she's gone. I've faced this type of melancholy / pain earlier long time ago, when my Mark I was sold off for a song. You'll, perhaps after a few years, will be proud of your decision today to keep your Merc with you.

Originally Posted by mbz180

JayD, my 2 cents:


Poor condition, lots of parts and bodywork required and an engine rebuild:

Pontons: 50k to 2 lakhs
Fintails: 50k to 1.5 lakhs

Average condition with sound engine, needing some bodywork, some mechanical overhauling and some trim parts

Pontons - 1.5 to 3 lakhs
Fintails - 1 to 2 lakhs

Sound body, mechanically straight and running but some trim parts required along with full cosmetic job (paint, chrome etc)

Pontons - 3 to 6 lakhs
Fintails - 2 to 4 lakhs

Mechanically straight, all trims present but in need of a cosmetic job to take it to good condition

Pontons - 6 to 8 lakhs
Fintails - 4 to 6 lakhs

Good condition needing no work unless you want it to be a notch higher and take it to mint condition

Pontons - 8 to 10 lakhs
Fintails - 6 to 8 lakhs

Restored to show standard with no work required whatsoever

Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs
Fintails - 9 to 12 lakhs?

Excellent original condition without having undergone a full restoration

Pontons - 10 to 15 lakhs plus (I think The Mole's car would fall into this category

Fintails - 12 (?) lakhs plus

Let me try and qualify some of what I've stated above.

I've pegged the starting values of both Pontons and Fintails in bad condition around the same. I should think this is fair because 50k is a rock bottom price today for nearly any old car that can be salvaged. I scrapped a 1996 Esteem for 20k!

The values between Pontons and Fintails in progressively better condition begin to widen simply because there were fewer Pontons that came into India compared to Fintails. This combined with the higher survival rate of Fintails leaves even fewer Pontons (relatively) around today. Limited supply with higher interest results in higher prices in good condition.

I find the survival ratio interesting and have a theory. You see, the very design element that made the Ponton unique during its time for a Mercedes Benz, was its unitary construction. However, unlike true monocoque construction the Ponton structure was basically a hollow frame welded together with the sheet metal. Like a nondetachable chassis. Moisture could easily get trapped in these cavities all over the structure especially in our climate leading to a slow rot from within. Owners must have junked a lot of the cars which were too far gone. The Fintails on the other hand were more a true monocoque with rigid pressings and far less frame sections. This may account for the difference in survival rates. Besides, the Fintails were modern looking and faster.

Some points to consider:

A full engine rebuild for a Ponton would set you back between 70k to a lakh. A Fintail less. Reason being that some Fintail NOS parts are available here while much less is available for Pontons. One has to import these parts which are usually expensive (A casualty of the 190SL having a very similar engine to the 4 cyl petrol Pontons). So if you find a Ponton with a good engine, you should expect to pay more.

A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable between the 2 models and some Fintail parts can be adapted for use in Pontons. You can still get NOS Fintail suspension and brakes parts here so if a Ponton requires major mechanical overhaul, don't be too worried (unless you're a stickler for originality in which case you should be very worried!).

Trims and cosmetic are very different in most cases between the 2 models. Some parts may appear the same but aren't. An example are the triangular indicator assemblies on the fenders of 4 cylinder Pontons and 190 Fintails - externally they are identical but take them off and compare and you'll see that the opening at the base for the wiring in the Fintail's is much larger meaning you'd have to cut a bit of your Ponton fender for it to fit! Off hand, the only cosmetic part I can think of which are common are the round headlamp lenses and hubcaps though later Pontons (the one's with the wider grilles) had interior bits such as dash switches which were the same on Fintails.

As far as I'm aware, trim parts are scarcely available here for both models so missing items will need to be imported. Here's where the difference really starts to build up and there are fewer vendors worldwide for Pontons compared to Fintails. MB themselves stock and make a higher number of Fintail parts. One reason could be more of the original dyes for the latter are around. Second, there are a lot more Fintails worldwide to justify more parts production which can therefore be priced lower.

My theory for higher Ponton parts pricing is that it's simply a casuality of being produced alongside the 300SL Gullwing/Roadster, 300 Adenauers and 300S cabrios/coupes and the 190SL. These were the pinnacle of what was available in the 1950's. Not one series production sports car came close to a 300SL in terms of speed and technology. The 300 sedans and 2 doors were built to the highest standards and exuded quality. At the same time they were complex cars with self leveling rear suspension and fuel injection in later models. The 190SL on the other hand is a Ponton in sportscar guise but it's outward similarity to the 300SL has, over the last 5 years, catapulted prices at international auctions to over $150,000 for top cars! Now parts vendors and MB exploit this since some parts are common between the cars. Say a brake booster, it's identical in both a million dollar 300SL and a humble 4 cylinder Ponton. The price for a new piece from MB is Rs.1,10,000 (it's not a typo). MB may be pricing it such because they know that to a 300SL or even a 190SL owner this price won't be a factor. After all, why should a part be priced cheap when it's for a car valued at over a million dollars, just bad luck it's also identical in a Ponton! This can make a big difference in restoration costs so if you get a Ponton that needs no or very few trim parts than you should expect to pay higher as you're saving big bucks. Inversely, you should negotiate down the price of a Ponton hard if a lot of trim is required because replacements are very expensive and this I can say with certainty!

The amount of chrome in both cars is similar. A full re-chrome would set you back around 50k. A bare metal paint job would be around 30k, more if you want a heat chamber job with panels being painted individually.

Both cars have 13 inch wheels, don't fret if the car you want to buy has bad tyres as importing expensive tyres is not the only option. Maxxis 185/80R13 thin whitewall radials are a perfect substitute for both cars; radials were an original factory option even on Pontons!

And the last point about originality. As has been oft said, a car is original only once and therefore they should and do command the highest prices. I'm not talking about original in the sense of a barn find with paint peeling off, tattered upholstery, shot rubber parts etc. Those are simply dangerous to take on the road. These cases should be restored to be roadworthy. Originality must be useable and presentable otherwise it just comes across as badly maintained.

All the above that I've talked about applies only for 4 cylinder cars. Add perhaps 30% to 40% for 6 cylinder versions, maybe?

At the end of the day, there are too many variables to factor in as far as pricing is concerned but I have tried to provide a broad range of prices for different conditions.

Sorry JayD for the incessant babble. I started off by mentioning "2 cents worth"

Cheers,
mbz180

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by vinay kamath

Thanks MBZ180 for your informative helpful post. Actually your two cents are definitely my million dollars ! I love the special endearing look & curves of a Ponton , and have a hugely soft corner for one even if she is in a mediocre condition. If I had to spend three or five or eight or ten lacs, I would feel a lot better in my heart if I had invested in a Ponton as compared to other automobiles. Even a VW Beetle similarly captures my attention.

Vinay, is the WB registered car in Calcutta or Bangalore? Just curious. I can help with the Calcutta car if you need.

Best of luck in your search for a good Ponton, they're nice cars to drive and very reliable. I can point out several parts vendors if you require parts.

Regards,
mbz180

[vinay kamath]

Originally Posted by mbz180

Vinay, is the WB registered car in Calcutta or Bangalore? Just curious. I can help with the Calcutta car if you need.

Best of luck in your search for a good Ponton, they're nice cars to drive and very reliable. I can point out several parts vendors if you require parts.

Regards,
mbz180

Faintly remember that the car was shifted to UP, may be, or Delhi side. I think you helped sell that car to them. Or may be , only the past owner was known to you . Probably , we discussed the car a few months ago. The car has a few issues . So I deferred a decision then. The owner's w123 is at B'lore

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by vinay kamath

Faintly remember that the car was shifted to UP, may be, or Delhi side. I think you helped sell that car to them. Or may be , only the past owner was known to you . Probably , we discussed the car a few months ago. The car has a few issues . So I deferred a decision then. The owner's w123 is at B'lore

I have not helped anyone in selling or buying a Ponton. In fact, I only know of the one in Calcutta for sale which is why I asked.

[vinay kamath]

Originally Posted by mbz180

I have not helped anyone in selling or buying a Ponton. In fact, I only know of the one in Calcutta for sale which is why I asked.

Yes , you're right. something like that. yes.

the 220S Ponton is what I've now nearly found. But let time tell what happens eventually.

[Philedonos]

Hi,

the super Amby sold super quick, so you'll hopefully see it again soon on Bombay roads, driven by a lady!
Ciao.

[Bulldogji]

Originally Posted by Philedonos

Hi,

the super Amby sold super quick, so you'll hopefully see it again soon on Bombay roads, driven by a lady!
Ciao.

That is good news for the dapper Italian, but we shall miss the Amby on our road trips. Perhaps the new owner can be persuaded to continue the tradition by driving with us?

[deepti2357]

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