[awini]

Originally Posted by ClassicStanley

Perhaps in India due to lack of choice, but I really don't see that happening anywhere else!

No offence meant.

obviously it's because of a lack of choice. we can't import or export old cars. nowhere else do people pay rolls Royce money for a model A Ford or sellers demand Duesenberg money for an Austin 7.

[ClassicStanley]

Originally Posted by awini

obviously it's because of a lack of choice. we can't import or export old cars. nowhere else do people pay rolls Royce money for a model A Ford or sellers demand Duesenberg money for an Austin 7.

Lucky for the Austin 7 owner then!

I was specifically referring to the second part of your original statement where you referred to them being "sought after".

[awini]

Originally Posted by ClassicStanley

Lucky for the Austin 7 owner then!

I was specifically referring to the second part of your original statement where you referred to them being "sought after".

yes they will be, very very few were made for the domestic market. they were esentially left over export bodyshells.
considering that people these days "restore" 118NEs and HM Contessas, the zen at least are genuinely refined well built cars compared to those pieces of trash.
before a debate starts, i want to state that i have owned several examples of both, the NE and the conti from new so i know. except for their engines and transmissions, both were TRASH.
i am of course talking about only the indian "collecter" car market, not international.

[ClassicStanley]

Originally Posted by awini

yes they will be, very very few were made for the domestic market. they were esentially left over export bodyshells.
considering that people these days "restore" 118NEs and HM Contessas, the zen at least are genuinely refined well built cars compared to those pieces of trash.
before a debate starts, i want to state that i have owned several examples of both, the NE and the conti from new so i know. except for their engines and transmissions, both were TRASH.
i am of course talking about only the indian "collecter" car market, not international.

I suspect we might be talking at cross purposes.

Either way, you appear to be saying that this car (I am not familiar with a Zen, but this seems to be what it really is) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Cervo#Cervo_Mode is a future classic in India?

If that is the case, I fear for your budding movement!

A lack of choice does not mean you just call anything a classic.

[Stanher]

Originally Posted by awini

who would have thought even 10 years ago that a dukkar Fiat and Hindustan landmaster would be exhibited alongside napiers and rolls royces in a cartier councours.... not in the near future but they definitely will be sought after

Originally Posted by ClassicStanley

Perhaps in India due to lack of choice, but I really don't see that happening anywhere else!

^Why not? Both the abovementioned cars are very much considered classics in their home countries- in case you weren't familiar with a 'Dukkar' fiat, it was the '50s Fiat Millecento:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...Side-front.JPG

And the HM Landmaster is nothing but a Morris Oxford series 2. May be not as sought after as the Minor but is very much part of the classic scenario in your country.

As for the lack of choice, its not only due to the restriction on imports of older cars as awini says, but also because most of the existing cars in India itself were scrapped over time due to earlier lack of demand and dearth of spares.

[kasli]

Originally Posted by ClassicStanley

I suspect we might be talking at cross purposes.

Either way, you appear to be saying that this car (I am not familiar with a Zen, but this seems to be what it really is) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Cervo#Cervo_Mode is a future classic in India?

If that is the case, I fear for your budding movement!

A lack of choice does not mean you just call anything a classic.

Zen ! It's a junk drawn on a sushi table. So I don't think it can ever land into a classic . While the Fiat and LANDMASTER aka Morris OXFORD aka the early series ambassador by HM all have a charm and Charisma of their own. There is what I call identity in each of them . No two ever left the factory premises alike !

Cheers

[ClassicStanley]

Originally Posted by Stanher

^Why not? Both the abovementioned cars are very much considered classics in their home countries- in case you weren't familiar with a 'Dukkar' fiat, it was the '50s Fiat Millecento:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...Side-front.JPG

And the HM Landmaster is nothing but a Morris Oxford series 2. May be not as sought after as the Minor but is very much part of the classic scenario in your country.

I'm really not sure I agree with you here. It's a question of degree. I don't think I have come across an Oxford at a concours or even a car show. It would be boring if we all agreed, so there we are.

Originally Posted by kasli

Zen ! It's a junk drawn on a sushi table. So I don't think it can ever land into a classic . While the Fiat and LANDMASTER aka Morris OXFORD aka the early series ambassador by HM all have a charm and Charisma of their own. There is what I call identity in each of them . No two ever left the factory premises alike ! Cheers

I can however, agree with this gentleman. The "Zen" is junk - simply put.

The points made about "charm" are interesting, but I sincerely doubt these cars will ever be truly sought after (in the way once discusses cars of a certain level) beyond those individuals who perhaps have no choice in the matter.

[awini]

Originally Posted by kasli

Zen ! It's a junk drawn on a sushi table. So I don't think it can ever land into a classic . While the Fiat and LANDMASTER aka Morris OXFORD aka the early series ambassador by HM all have a charm and Charisma of their own. There is what I call identity in each of them . No two ever left the factory premises alike !

Cheers

anniruddh I'm not talking about a generic zen, and I'm certainly not comparing it to fiats and landmasters.(which i don't consider "classic" either)

I'm talking about the very low volume production three door zen which is a much nicer car than the four door.
the point being that absolute trash is considered classic here in India, prime examples being premier 118NE and the Hindustan Contessa. I have seen posts on this forum on the lengths people have gone to "restore" these two "classics" apparently there is even a 118NE club in Bangalore, which is ok, if there can be clubs for the Morris Marina, why not the NE?
the original maruti 800 is already a "sought" after car in India, so why not the three door zen in the future?
i probably wouldn't want to own any of the cars iv mentioned, including landmasters and dukkars, except for one of Karl's dukkars, but that's for sentimental reasons.
but i said the same for the Austin Seven 15 years ago and wouldnt mind a clean pram hood or chummy today.
no two ambassadors may have left the factory alike, but i consider that a problem for a mass produced car, not a virtue. not exatly Aston Martins, are they?

[vintageman]

Originally Posted by harit

A small insight to the workings of Cartier circus managers

When I started this thread on 18th Feb 2012, I did mention I am unlikely to be a part of it.

Subsequently, around middle of June 2012, there was a “Press Release from Cartier”, in which it was stated “…………….Therefore, a new entry procedure has been put in place for all future Cartier Concours d’Elegances in India. If you would like to participate in the next Cartier ‘Travel With Style’ Concours, could you kindly mail full details of your vehicle/s with recent photographs to - concoursindia@gmail.com. These details will then be forwarded to London for final selection which will be made by our highly experienced panel of automotive judges headed by the Chief Judge H.R.H. Prince Michael of Kent and Cartier’s Curator Manvendra Singh of Barwani.

I really believed that there is a new procedure in place, and hence submitted my application for my Dodge Custom Royal.
This I did after speaking to a few friends, some of whom commented that this "new" procedure may have been put in place after my comments on the second Cartier event on t-bhp.
Please see
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...11-a.html page 3 post 32 onwards. If one has the time, please read all the posts and have fun. Then compare this with the 2013 event and many things become more clear.

I may never know if they really met in London and how many times, but I know for sure that some of the cars present and participating had not even applied. In some cases it was understood that selected cars are entered, in other cases the owners were surprised to be invited without an application. So much for the “new” entry procedure. I believe that the committee must have met again in December in London just to invite a certain 1955 Dodge. The strange part is that the Dodge owner did not apply, yet he was asked for a convertible and when informed that it was not made in India, they asked for his saloon which was also not assembled in India(don’t tell the curator). Yet they persisted with this entry as the “highly experienced panel of automotive judges headed by the Chief Judge H.R.H. Prince Michael of Kent and Cartier’s Curator Manvendra Singh of Barwani” thought fit. The joke is that this car was eventually listed as a convertible, the panel could not tell the difference. And the owner has much better cars which would have spoilt many pre-selected winners.

On 20.11.2012, I received a mail from Mark Shand, which contained also the following lines
.......]As you may be aware there are a limited number of entries for each event and, sadly, it is not possible to accommodate everyone. We regret very much not being able to accept your vehicle on this occasion but will certainly keep it in mind for the next event. We hope very much for your continued interest and support of the Cartier ‘Travel with Style’ Concours d’Elegance and your future participation.
Yours sincerely,
Mark Shand
Director– Cartier ‘Travel

I did the hi-lighting to emphasize that these jokers do not mean what they say and write. They were sad, they will keep me in mind, hope for my continued interest and support, hope for my future participation, and then go ahead and snub me by not giving me an invite to visit, even when a common friend asked them. So many people not invited did go in, I deliberately chose to keep away.

I would only say that Cartier could consider to keep their event in French hands and take it away from that Englishman and the Indian prince, the French certainly understand hospitality much better. In the first Cartier event the invites were from Bernard Fornas, President and CEO of Cartier International, this time it was Mark Shand, Director, who eulogized the curator (praise highly in speech or writing), calling him “our curator HH Rana Singh Barwani, India’s most respected and experienced vintage car expert".

There were many cars which should not have been there, and many which should have been. I won't go in there as many from both sides are my friends.

I think this will show a little insight of the politics going on there, it has created lot of disillusionment in the collector car world, many wins are hollow, scores were trying to be settled, all at the cost of Cartier whose show was likened to a poor joke of a circus. Why does Cartier allow this?

Cheers harit

Back on the forum after a rest period and it was normal I should start with the supposedly premier vintage event - I think Harit has correctly called it a Circus - as I was not in India when these events took place , I am basing my statement totally on the comments on the forum , going by the cars which appear on this thread it would seem nepotism rules at Cartiers also - maybe for buisness reasons or for other unknown motives - the choice of cars both for the 2nd and 3rd edition of the Cartiers event leave a lot to be desired.

I would also like to know

- firstly just to clear a doubt, can somebody enlighten me - are we still using HH and HEH for our erstwhile rajas and yuvraja's who were pushed by the indian public to the dustbin of history, such that we could have a functioing democracy here. Is it legal to use these titles , for persons who are engaged in professions which are different from ruling and governance ( hoteliers & tailors?? ) to which these titles refer to.

- secondly - cosmetically also, there are some defects in the cars exhibited at Cartiers - if I recollect correctly somewhere there was a Bentley with Ford truck rims , but , how good are these cars mechanically??

Can we have a feed back if they run OR are pushed like a famous ROLLS I saw on the net being pushed by a family of retainers at a similar event .
Are the automobliles displayed here like Cartiers products made only for embeliishment to the physical shape ???

Regards
Chauhan

[DKG]

Originally Posted by vintageman

- firstly just to clear a doubt, can somebody enlighten me - are we still using HH and HEH for our erstwhile rajas and yuvraja's who were pushed by the indian public to the dustbin of history, such that we could have a functioing democracy here. Is it legal to use these titles , for persons who are engaged in professions which are different from ruling and governance ( hoteliers & tailors?? ) to which these titles refer

Along with the privy purse the Government of India also abolished all titles and privileges, so you are correct in stating that officially no such titles can be used.

For example I am pretty sure no communication in the government will refer to Vikramaditya Scindia as Maharajah, nor was his dad ever referred so.

Sometimes even the media makes the mistake of referring to someone using the titles or Prince or Princess. Now whether legally someone can question such a use in media is an interesting point. I have a feeling legally it can be questioned.

However, socially you will notice that there is a sizeable population of people who were once associated with these families and continue to refer to them with titles out of respect and its quite prevalent across India.

[KPS]

The Bangalore Chevy was showed off as a worthy Cartier winner in the Century Club show. . this Sunday



Picture courtesy : Srinand

[karlosdeville]

A participant from the last event, Jehangir, has unfortunately lost all his images of his lovely AJS taking part.



Does anyone have any images to share with him, especially riding up the ramp to collect his prize?

[Philedonos]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

A participant from the last event, Jehangir, has unfortunately lost all his images of his lovely AJS taking part.

Attachment 1144044

Does anyone have any images to share with him, especially riding up the ramp to collect his prize?

Dear Jehangir, dear Karl,

I have only one pictures of him on the bike, after the podium though. Still, hope it helps...
Cheers, Daniel

[Bulldogji]

Tweety bird dropped by after a long time twittering away that the next Cartier bash might take place in early 2015 with a special class for stationwagons.

Perhaps that explains the sudden increase in interest and prices for these long ignored beauties

[kasli]

Two winners from Mumbai declared in this class on merit.

Well if it's in early 2015 , who is is short listing the cars or we again get the spiel on email etc ..but it's been pre decided already.


Cheers