[Tanveer_2558]

I say avoid the 17" wheels, You can get several options in 16" aswell, Remember the more rubber you add you'll get more grip but also slow down your acceleration a bit, The more rubber you put the more work the engine has to do to get it moving, Something i felt after upsizing my first car to 17 inches you can see that here, http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...india-240.html Post : #3598

I am not comparing to how my Cedia Sports was running with the 17" with how a jetta would, But why give the car so much rubber when it can sufficiently handle everything you throw at her specially with the kind of suspension the car has.

I know people running remapped jetta's even on stock tyre and are happy with it, Its just us who find the need to fine tune everything that we want, I feel 225/50/R16 Michelin PS3's are a very good upgrade, The one i have planned to do myself by August - September.

[graaja]

Originally Posted by adi_petrolhead

No need for 17" wheels if you can find good 16" Borbet ones with 7" width, that will make installing 225/50/16 tyres much more easier and will improve grip tremendously.

If you upsize on the current rims of the Jetta, go for 215/55/16.
...
If you really want to upgrade to 17" then the options are either 215/50/17 or else 225/45/17 or you could go even wider!

Thanks Adi. I would like to upgrade to 225. I guess any wider is not required. Following are the options for 225 width.

16" - 225/50/R16
17" - 225/45/R17

One issue with 225/50/R16 is the availability of this size in Michelin PS3. I just spoke to my tire dealer and he said PS3 is not available in this size. On the other hand 225/45/R17 is available and the price is 12.5K.

Also, if I decide to stick with 16", I will stay with OE wheels and and the little extra protrusion of the tires is fine. You are using this combination and Chethan_BG is also using this in Jetta and both of you have given positive feedback.

Originally Posted by adi_petrolhead

I am loving this tyre right now even after 25K kms on stock rims, looks good for about another 20K as of now. Stance of the car is wicked, tyre sticks to the road like glue.

That is exactly why I would like to go with wider tires

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

I say avoid the 17" wheels, You can get several options in 16" aswell, Remember the more rubber you add you'll get more grip but also slow down your acceleration a bit, The more rubber you put the more work the engine has to do to get it moving.

...I feel 225/50/R16 Michelin PS3's are a very good upgrade, The one i have planned to do myself by August - September.

Thanks Tanveer. I thought only the width matters in acceleration. So, a 225 tire on 17" will have the same effect on acceleration as a 225 tire on 16", right. What the 17" will provide will be better cornering due to reduced sidewall flex.

Also, the 225/50/R16 Michelin PS3's are not available. Did you find any dealer who has these in stock?

[GTO]

My brother's Jetta needs a tyre change and this is the option we've chosen:

Originally Posted by graaja

Upgrade to 225/50/R16 Michelin PS3

It's the most practical. Believe this size PS3 costs about 12k. Better grip & also stance (from the fatter tyres).

I understand going for a 17" wheel would make the ride a little stiff. How much? Would it be so harsh that it becomes impractical? I am fine with a little harshness as the suspensions do a fantastic job in the Jetta. Also, with 17", I believe I will have to be very gentle on rough roads and potholes.

Yeah, a little stiff, but not a deal breaker at all. My Civic with 225/45 R17 was very usable and we drove it everywhere. Go for 17s if you:

- Have the budget (rims will also need to be changed)
- Looks are very important to you (they were for my Civic)
- Can live with a ride that's a bit firmer

[graaja]

Originally Posted by GTO

...
It's the most practical. Believe this size PS3 costs about 12k. Better grip & also stance (from the fatter tyres).
...

Go for 17s if you:

- Have the budget (rims will also need to be changed)
- Looks are very important to you (they were for my Civic)
- Can live with a ride that's a bit firmer

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

My experience with these tyres says that for normal road use the improvement in handling with 225/45/17 vis a vis 225/50/16 is very marginal...

Also bear in mind that 17" wheels will be heavier than 16" and will add to the unsprung weight. Here's an interesting thread on the same Link

...The other main reason we all want to upsize is due to better aesthetics. Wide and low profile tyres look really good. A change to some nice looking 17 inchers will give a nice mid life update to your Jetta. If your only requirements are better performance and grip, then don't bother with 17s and hunt for 225/50/16 PS3s.

Thanks Santhosh and GTO.

From your posts I could come to the following conclusion.

The ride with 17" will be definitely a little firmer than the 16", but not the extent being impractical. For the same 225 width, the improvement in performance of 17" will be only marginally better than the 16", but will greatly improve the stance and looks. So, if I am only looking for performance and grip then 225/50/R16 with OE wheels is the best practical choice. If I am looking for both performance and a mid-life makeover, then 225/45/R17 is the way to go - at a higher cost due to the need to change the alloys. I just need to decide if I want better looks as well along with performance.

At this point, I am leaning towards 225/50/R16, but in case availability becomes an issue, will go for 17".

Thanks a lot once again for the clear inputs.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by graaja

For the same 225 width, the improvement in performance of 17" will be only marginally better than the 16", but will greatly improve the stance and looks.

Looks is the primary reason you'd go for 17s.

Three additional points:

- Steering might feel sharper
- In my experience, cars with low-profile tyres tramline easier than those without
- Suspension might wear out a little quicker due to less cushioning from the sidewalls & additional weight of the rims (of course, some after-market 17" rims can be lighter than the stock 16").

End of the day, it's a head vs heart fight. For my Civic, I happily went with 17s and never regretted it. Always turned back for a second look after parking her .

[graaja]

Originally Posted by GTO

End of the day, it's a head vs heart fight. For my Civic, I happily went with 17s and never regretted it.

It is always head vs. heart when it comes to anything related to car, and in my case, never once has the head won

Originally Posted by GTO

Always turned back for a second look after parking her .

That is another point my heart will against the head

One thing I am sure from this discussion is I can not go wrong with either of the choices.

[avinash_clt]

Need advice on tire upgrade. My Jetta has done close to 31K with the Michelin P3STs and the tires have maybe another 5K life. I have three options.

1. Keep the same size 205/55/R16 and go for the same P3STs
2. Upgrade to 225/50/R16 Michelin PS3.
3. Upsize to 17" wheels and change to Michelin PS3 225/45/R17



1. What are the pros and cons of options #2 and #3? Which one would you go for and why?
2. I understand going for a 17" wheel would make the ride a little stiff. How much? Would it be so harsh that it becomes impractical? I am fine with a little harshness as the suspensions do a fantastic job in the Jetta. Also, with 17", I believe I will have to be very gentle on rough roads and potholes.
3. If I had to choose a 17" wheel, what are the parameters I have to look for? What is PCD and offset?
4. Is the below wheel a good option? Can you suggest some other good options as well?
Attachment 1525390

With regards to improved braking, dry/wet traction, there won't be much difference between a good rubber in 225/50 R16 or 225/45 R17. Unless you are going specifically for light weight wheels, in most probability the 17" rims will increase the unsprung weight. And personally since we have two Skoda cars which has come 16" and 17" from the factory, I recommend to stick with 16". You can instead use the money needed for a 17" rim to buy better dampers (to reduce roll), stick with equally grippy and performing 16" tyres. 17 inchers will also increase the wear on suspension components.

Jetta PCD : 5x112
Offset: Stick as close to OE offset as much as possible. 225 tyres go comfortably inside the wheel-well and doesn't rub on either sides. Thus stick to stock offset as much as possible to retain originally intended handling characteristics.
Width of alloy: 7J ideal for 225/50 R16. Will run on stock 6.5J rims also. 7.5J ideal for 225/45 R17, will run on 7.0J rims also.

Edit:
Chethan uses 225/50/R16 PS3's in his Jetta and has good reviews on this combination. I would like to understand how a 17" upgrade would compare to 225/50/R16 on stock wheels.

I have run two set of 225/50 R16 on the stock 6.5J rims of our Laura vRS. Yes the narrow rim and slightly bulged out tyres do look out of place, but I have always felt it to be better than the stock tyres.

I would like to upgrade to 225. I guess any wider is not required. Following are the options for 225 width.

16" - 225/50/R16
17" - 225/45/R17

One issue with 225/50/R16 is the availability of this size in Michelin PS3. I just spoke to my tire dealer and he said PS3 is not available in this size. On the other hand 225/45/R17 is available and the price is 12.5K.

Michelin PS3s were stopped initially in 2012 (due to the ISI certification issue) and later re-introduced into the market in late 2015. Try escalating to Michelin that they have the tyre listed in their website, but dealer is not able to supply. They should respond and arrange for you. I received 225/50 R16, once from Michelin and later from Yokohama only through escalation.

My brother had interacted with a Michelin engineer earlier this year, during one of his track days at MMRT. He recalls the engineer mentioning that Michelin PS4 will be launched in India (as PS3s have been globally replaced by PS4). I am not sure how soon that would be.

Apart from Michelin, below are also good options comparable to PS3s:

225/50 R16 : Michelin PS3, Yokohama Advan Sport (earlier was only RFT, don't know current status)
225/45 R17: Michelin PS3, Yokohama Advan Sport, Hankook S1 Evo2 (K117)


Regards,
Avinash

[graaja]

Originally Posted by avinash_clt

And personally since we have two Skoda cars which has come 16" and 17" from the factory, I recommend to stick with 16". You can instead use the money needed for a 17" rim to buy better dampers (to reduce roll), stick with equally grippy and performing 16" tyres. 17 inchers will also increase the wear on suspension components.
...

I have run two set of 225/50 R16 on the stock 6.5J rims of our Laura vRS. Yes the narrow rim and slightly bulged out tyres do look out of place, but I have always felt it to be better than the stock tyres.
...

Michelin PS3s were stopped initially in 2012 (due to the ISI certification issue) and later re-introduced into the market in late 2015. Try escalating to Michelin that they have the tyre listed in their website, but dealer is not able to supply. They should respond and arrange for you. I received 225/50 R16, once from Michelin and later from Yokohama only through escalation.

Thanks a lot for the very detailed response. I am definitely convinced about the practicality of the 225/50/R16 on the stock 6.5j wheels, and will most probably go for this option. As GTO pointed out earlier, 16" vs. 17" is more of a head vs. heart situation now. The more I think about the choices, I think the head could win this time, as I could use the saved 50K for suspension upgrade or a remap.

Thank you for the tip about escalating to Michelin. I will talk to the dealer once again and if he has trouble sourcing the 225/50/R16 PS3s, I will definitely escalate to Michelin.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by graaja

Thank you for the tip about escalating to Michelin. I will talk to the dealer once again and if he has trouble sourcing the 225/50/R16 PS3s, I will definitely escalate to Michelin.

graaja, any update on the 225/60/R16 search? My Octavia TSi is on the OEM Goodyear NCT Eagle 205/16s and done only 10k km. However, I also feeling the urge to upgrade to 225/16s.

From a a casual few calls here in BLR, I found that PS3s are hard to come by. Dealers are pushing Yoko Db series, Conti CPCs etc.

What have you decided?

[graaja]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

graaja, any update on the 225/60/R16 search? My Octavia TSi is on the OEM Goodyear NCT Eagle 205/16s and done only 10k km. However, I also feeling the urge to upgrade to 225/16s.

From a a casual few calls here in BLR, I found that PS3s are hard to come by. Dealers are pushing Yoko Db series, Conti CPCs etc.

What have you decided?

Just spoke to the tyre dealer here. He says 225/50/R16 Michelin Pilot Sport 3 ST are available for 12.5K each. I was surprised to hear about PS3 ST, as it was only P3ST or PS3 earlier. Then I checked Michelin website, and indeed Pilot Sport 3 is no more listed, only Pilot Sport 3 ST. Maybe they added some comfort to the sporty PS3 and created PS3 ST.

Anyone else has any information about what is different in PS3 ST compared to the earlier PS3?

[avinash_clt]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

From a a casual few calls here in BLR, I found that PS3s are hard to come by. Dealers are pushing Yoko Db series, Conti CPCs etc.
?

Casual enquiries are highly unlikely to land you 225/50 R16 PS3 or Advan Sports. These tyres are rarely kept in stock by the dealer and some would outright deny their availability. In such case drop a mail to the respective customer care of Michelin/Yoko. They would normally respond to you and also arrange to have the tyres reach you through a dealer in your locality. Has worked twice for me in the past.

Originally Posted by graaja

When I checked Michelin website, and indeed Pilot Sport 3 is no more listed, only Pilot Sport 3 ST. Maybe they added some comfort to the sporty PS3 and created PS3 ST.

Anyone else has any information about what is different in PS3 ST compared to the earlier PS3?

PS3s have always been PS3 ST itself. I think they just updated the name in the websites and nothing more, it is the same tyre. For reference see this pic of the PS3s I had bought in early 2012 for our Laura (tyres were of 2011 manufacture). You can clearly 'ST' embossed on the sidewall . Globally PS3s have been replaced by PS4 and wondering when the same will be launched in India.

Edit: I believe 'ST' simply stands for Summer Tyre. Because there is also an All Season variant of PS3 called Michlein Pilot Sport A/S 3 (I believe intended for north american markets. Euro markets are more favourable towards separate summer and winter tyres). So in India we had always received the summer tyre variants or PS3 ST itself.

Cheers,
Avinash

[graaja]

Originally Posted by avinash_clt

PS3s have always been PS3 ST itself. I think they just updated the name in the websites and nothing more, it is the same tyre. For reference see this pic of the PS3s I had bought in early 2012 for our Laura (tyres were of 2011 manufacture). You can clearly 'ST' embossed on the sidewall . Globally PS3s have been replaced by PS4 and wondering when the same will be launched in India.

Edit: I believe 'ST' simply stands for Summer Tyre. Because there is also an All Season variant of PS3 called Michlein Pilot Sport A/S 3 (I believe intended for north american markets. Euro markets are more favourable towards separate summer and winter tyres). So in India we had always received the summer tyre variants or PS3 ST itself.

Cheers,
Avinash

Thanks for the confirmation.

I had thought ST means "Silence Tuned" as it means in the P3ST. But what you say makes sense. ST should be "Summer Tires". I read the description in one of the tire websites which says the PS3's are summer tires which have excellent dry and wet grip, but are not supposed to be driven in very cold weather or on snow or ice.

Just before I saw your edit, I had called Michelin customer care. The support person confirmed that PS3 ST is same as PS3, and is the performance tire and fresh stocks are available.

[avinash_clt]

Originally Posted by graaja

I read the description in one of the tire websites which says the PS3's are summer tires which have excellent dry and wet grip, but are not supposed to be driven in very cold weather or on snow or ice.

That is the case for all summer tyres. They are not good for use in cold weather, more so in snow and ice. Specific winter tyres are recommended when the temperatures drop below 7 deg Celsius (day average). Virtually most of the tyres sold in India would be classified under summer tyres itself as except for few regions we don't have severe winter periods and neither do we have regulatory requirement that mandate winter/all-season tyres.

Michelin here in EU have high performance equivalent among winter tyres called Pilot Alpin series.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by avinash_clt

My brother had interacted with a Michelin engineer earlier this year, during one of his track days at MMRT. He recalls the engineer mentioning that Michelin PS4 will be launched in India (as PS3s have been globally replaced by PS4). I am not sure how soon that would be

Is the PS4 coming soon to India? From what I see on the tyrereviews.co.uk site, it is so far available only in 17, 18 & 19 inches which somewhat limits the market in India.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Mi...t-4.htm/price/

It does have rave reviews though and may even be cheaper than the PS3? Is that possible?!

[avinash_clt]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Is the PS4 coming soon to India? From what I see on the tyrereviews.co.uk site, it is so far available only in 17, 18 & 19 inches which somewhat limits the market in India.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Mi...t-4.htm/price/

It does have rave reviews though and may even be cheaper than the PS3? Is that possible?!

Car tyre sizes in Europe, especially those with 205+ sections are hardly below 17" these days (well bigger rims/wider tyres have always been the trend if you look at successive generations of euro cars). So the person who would pick up the PS4 for the extra performance over regular summer tyre is most likely to have 17'' on their cars and makes sense for Michelin to start their offering from the particular size and upwards.

I was a bit wrong in my earlier post. PS4 are not just a new/updated PS3, but an improvement over the Pilot Super Sport itself. If you look at the product history, PS2 was 'replaced' by the Pilot Super Sport . PS3s however was something that came between Pilot Exalto 2 and Pilot Super Sport (so it wasn't all out performance). Its a bit confusing, but reading these two articles will help clear it up: Pilot Sport Series history & Pilot Super Sport vs Pilot Sport 4

The takeaway is PS3 will continue for some more time in smaller sizes and OE fitments. But the larger sizes will be replaced by PS4 . And I have no guesses when they will come to India, especially considering ours being a very small market for max performance summer tyres, and need for ISI certification / homologation.