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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreejeshmp
(Post 2272117)
It seems like the intension was not crossing the water but something else.Like taking to the limits and after the limit it fails,It happens for each and every Object in the world.Nothing special on this case.A normal man with commonsense knows if water enter to the engine it will kill your engine :) as Simple as it is.
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Before we get into conspiracy theories:
I was there.
The intention was to cross the water like some vehicles (jeep/gypsy) did/ and some vehicles (jeep/gypsy) did not.
It happened as a result of one of either
1> Water ingress into vehicle through exhaust/air intake
2> Driver technique while fording (as others have pointed out)
or a combination of both.
Bottom line: One needs to take as much precaution with the thar (maybe more given sensitive electronic components) as with any other vehicle while fording water above hub level.
Having said that, maybe the ability of a 'simple' vehicle to recover after a dunking is higher than that of a 'advanced' vehicle. Just like the ability of an 'advanced' vehicle to cover 200km to an OTR spot in a shorter duration is higher than that of a 'simple' vehicle.
For me it boils down to choosing what one's priorities/risk appetite is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu
(Post 2273411)
More than drying, it will deteriorate if it gets wet, so easy to detect. Ie if that is what you want to know. Basically it should be out of shape, if it got wet and engine was running.
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Are you 100% sure Jaggu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis
(Post 2273462)
Bottom line: One needs to take as much precaution with the thar (maybe more given sensitive electronic components) as with any other vehicle while fording water above hub level.
Having said that, maybe the ability of a 'simple' vehicle to recover after a dunking is higher than that of a 'advanced' vehicle. Just like the ability of an 'advanced' vehicle to cover 200km to an OTR spot in a shorter duration is higher than that of a 'simple' vehicle.
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Well said @ genesis - THAR is a good vehicle, but it does not mean it is the ultimate one. :thumbs up
To add to Soumya's post above here is the same water crossing done right...Cross posting from the Tungarli OTR threar in 4x4 section.
To prove that this was VERY doable, here is a Gypsy crossing with HT tires...no further discussion is needed. I'll post the video tomorrow (away from any usable bandwidth at the moment) so this series of frames from the video should do for now.
The Approach:
Quick check with spotter to verify the track and attitude to begin fording:
Steady low throttle input moving forward...less wave created in front this way:
Rear tires in the water, increased throttle input and held steady from here until clearing the water despite the upcoming dip and exhaust going underwater.
The Dip..steady throttle
The rear enters the dip as well. Vehicle is now completely in the deepest part of the crossing:
Front starts the climb out:
HT tires struggle a bit here for traction but throttle input increased slightly and held steady:
Front out of the water...no let up on throttle
Rear clears the obstacle - throttle input lowered to a crawl up the gradient
THAT is how it is done despite not having appropriate tires for off-roading. Steady throttle inputs that only increase through the obstacle - never backing off until he is clear of the water. Entering slowly to prevent a high bow wave and splashing inside the engine bay.
Technique + ensuring vehicle was on the right path - not a question of what vehicle/IFS/paper filter etc.
If we put this obstacle on EXAMM nobody would even talk about it 10 minutes later...lets not create a drama here.
Oops you posted the same thing in many places :P
Well as i said somewhere else, this crossing looks very doable. Unless it changed drastically after multiple vehicles passed by or the approach was at a deeper section. Just my 2 very limited experience cents.
Experts can comment further.
@header: am "quite" sure, but will not ask you to try it out, to test :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu
(Post 2273827)
@header: am "quite" sure, but will not ask you to try it out, to test :D
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No Jaggu: Been there, done that ... :uncontrol
If you see the position of the Gypsy in the last-but-one picture, The Thar was 1 car width to the right side where there is a steep step to get out of the water. This is where things went wrong for the Thar. The depth was also slightly deeper here. Effectively this was like doing the correct trail in reverse. The path taken by all those who crossed was very difficult, if not impossible, to take the other way. Kishor also tried and failed.
There is a video of Devang clearing the water crossing by taking the path that was laid out. There is no question that Abhishek deviated from this path during his attempt which resulted in the vehicle getting stuck.
How did such extensive damage occur? I don't know...I was off looking for a way to get the people out of the area to the road without requiring 4WD.
GREEN - Path taken by most of the people who completed the obstacle
RED - Path taken by Thar which did not make the trip home on it's own power
RED Circle - The step that proved insurmountable even for the mighty Thar!
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.s
(Post 2273282)
Steering away from the water in the engine issue, saw a brand new, Red Thar CRDe in the RMZ NXT visitor parking lot. Front half was covered by the canopy and the rear left as is. It was looking very butch and amazing. Had a real close look and also got a peek into the interiors. They are not as bad as in the pics. It looks pretty decent and even the panel gaps were manageable and not an eye sore per say.
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Oh Yeah. And it belongs to a fellow Team-BHPian :).
Took delivery last weekend and had to travel after that. Will post pics and my impressions soon.
Hi Guys,
Water definitely does enter the exhaust pipe, when the vehicle is in water.
WATER DOES NOT TRAVEL ALL THE WAY UP THE EXHAUST INTO THE ENGINE. If the engine is switched off.
Please look at the design of a Muffler/Silencer and you will understand how much force/weight/pressure the water has to apply to get passed the baffles in the exhaust.
The only way water will travel up the exhaust is if the vehicle has been submerged, and engine switched off, more than the bonnet depth for some time (30mins+) Water slowly seeps in.
Please do consider a leak in the Turbo or Inter Cooler Plumbing, considering the filter is dry.
Regards,
Arka
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c
(Post 2274236)
Please do consider a leak in the Turbo or Inter Cooler Plumbing, considering the filter is dry.
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^^ is a very important point considering the intercooler is behind the front bumper and the plumbing goes from one side of the engine to the other. A circlip if loose will allow water!!
@Spike - Am I correct? :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sreejeshmp
(Post 2272117)
It seems like the intension was not crossing the water but something else.Like taking to the limits and after the limit it fails,It happens for each and every Object in the world..
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Trust me the intention was not, what is running in your mind. The intention was just to offroad and know the car and its capabilities without going over board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by headers
(Post 2272770)
You know very well, how much underwater a jeep silencer can go and keep going
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I would not agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIP
(Post 2272866)
C'mon...depends on who's driving it also? Every jeeper worth his salt knows what water fording is and 'how to' do it properly. A high revving engine even in barely submersed water will take in huge amounts of water if engine cuts off!! A one-off example cannot be declared generic here.
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agree:. I only put this up as to let others know before they go and try something like this on their own. It was not meant to be a My car discussion that it has turned out to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG
(Post 2272890)
fins. I am pretty sure a Thar prepared so will kick the butt of any submarine :D
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It wont kick the butt of a submarine, but other vehicles in water with ease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu
(Post 2272919)
If this has happened and filter was dry then it is through exhaust, same thing myself and Robi has encountered :)
Speedy you are one of the few guys who is using Thar for offroad, the real stuff and your long term report is something all would look forward to. So if you can, please do.
Many of us have seen the Scorpio Crde engine coming to a stop when it touches water, mostly this is due to poor water proofing employed inside the engine bay for the sensors and other electrical. I guess the same thing is happening to Thar also.
In this particular case, if there was a dip there is high chance that speedy would have momentarily lifted off the throttle (unknowingly due to the bounce, happens to all of us without our knowledge). Resulting in water being taken in, result hydrolock.
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I am sure this has happened to many but, some wont admit it.
I did mention not at this point, and i am having my second thoughts of not putting up a report.
The water proofing of the car is not that great, so there are many possibilities that could play a factor, me included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari
(Post 2273595)
To prove that this was VERY doable, here is a Gypsy crossing with HT tires...no further discussion is needed.
THAT is how it is done despite not having appropriate tires for off-roading. Steady throttle inputs that only increase through the obstacle - never backing off until he is clear of the water. Entering slowly to prevent a high bow wave and splashing inside the engine bay.
Technique + ensuring vehicle was on the right path - not a question of what vehicle/IFS/paper filter etc.
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No one siad it was not doable. The Thar did it on the same path taken by the Gypsy. The second run was from the right of this path with a steep bank. I would like to see the Gyspy with HT tyres take and cross the water body from there.
The vehicle was in the path shown by the spotters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari
(Post 2274042)
GREEN - Path taken by most of the people who completed the obstacle
RED - Path taken by Thar which did not make the trip home on it's own power
RED Circle - The step that proved insurmountable even for the mighty Thar!
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The first run of the Thar was on the path marked with green. The second run i was told to take this path, i did not deviate from the normal path taken before, i did what was told to me. Lesson learnt here too, dont always trust a spotter, do things on your own too.
Mods sorry for posting, but i had no choice. My intention of putting the point of water seeping in was a general point which was not mentioned in the 80 odd pages and not to make it a MY Thar issue or discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy
(Post 2274588)
No one siad it was not doable
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There is a perception that since 80% of the vehicles broke down, the obstacle must have been at fault. I cleared up that this had nothing to do with the difficulty or fording depth of the obstacle.
Quote:
The second run was from the right of this path with a steep bank. I would like to see the Gyspy with HT tyres take and cross the water body from there.
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I wouldn't like to see that and I don't know who was spotting for you but that step was visible even from outside. I wouldn't have gone in just by the look of that stepped exit. Hindsight is always 20-20 though isn't it?
Quote:
The vehicle was in the path shown by the spotters. The first run of the Thar was on the path marked with green. The second run i was told to take this path, i did not deviate from the normal path taken before, i did what was told to me. Lesson learnt here too, dont always trust a spotter, do things on your own too.
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Who was spotting for you Abhi?
This is going off-topic. We will continue in the Excursions section.
Guys water can enter through tail pipe, atleast i had this experience with a petrol engine. If the revs are let off suddenly while the pipe is inside/under the water level then chances of reverse suction cannot be ruled out. But the water was very less and it just bent one of the con rods due to hydrostatic lock, it never went inside crankcase or oil.
Just from my experience. Again am not sure if the same holds for diesels.
As Arka mentioned, the intercooler plumbing could be the culprit here. Water may have never entered the Engine, but the turbo from where it got in oil.
that said, I feel there should be some things incorporated in modern offroad vehicles
1. Water sensor - As soon as water depth of more than exhaust pipe is detected, engine rpm at idle should be adjusted to 1200-1500rpm. So even if user leaves accelerator, engine does not come back to idle
2. Fan cutoff. Electric fans can break when they hit water while spinning. Since engine block is submerged, no need to have radiator fan blowing
3. Water fording height alarm - Off road vehicles are designed with certain fording height guaranteed. If water level goes above that, an alarm should sound warning the driver, so that things do not go bad.
4. Overheating problem : Many ECU powered engines go into limp home mode even with slight overheating. If Thar did not do so, its a design flaw. Whats the point of having a computer chip in the engine if you do not make use of it. When you get electronics in an engine due to metting emission norms and powering the common rain, why not use those electronics to their full potential?
That said, from the water level, it does not seem very deep to me. The water is till the base of headlights. Intercooler sits low, so its entirely possible that intercooler could have some flaw.
Probably Spike and DB can comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu
(Post 2274614)
Guys water can enter through tail pipe, atleast i had this experience with a petrol engine. If the revs are let off suddenly while the pipe is inside/under the water level then chances of reverse suction cannot be ruled out. But the water was very less and it just bent one of the con rods due to hydrostatic lock, it never went inside crankcase or oil.
Just from my experience. Again am not sure if the same holds for diesels.
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Hi Jaggu,
Which Petrol Engine and How Deep was the vehicle submerged?
Regards,
Arka
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