[svsantosh]

Ok Tejas, I trust you. But for the benefit of all, kindly incorporate that paramater too in the near future if time/resources permit. Can edit and add to the 1st page.

[SubuS]

My first post - so be gentle folks

1. I see a lot of people questioning how M&M can come up with such bad interiors, and when M&M gives an explanation about budget constraints etc. The same folks say "You can't bother us with internal corporate details"! I sense a gap in communication.

2. I read on some FB page that they spent 5 crores for the R&D of Thar. Did you know that you can't get a decent bungalow in Adyar for 5 crores today? they have been working for 2 years, and there were about 8 folks on the show jeep who were "core" to this. Taking a very naive worst case scenario and assuming an average salary of 15L per head, (and that these folks are dedicated to Thar) M&M has already sunk half their investment. Then consider the regular running costs etc. M&M doesn't have much money left for actual product development! So they will have to run through their parts bin - and when parts don't exactly fit (Like the case of Bolero Dash being not an exact fit in MM540 because of glass rake), there is going to be some hacksawing. I would just be happy with the great engine there.

3. And people who compare Chevy Beat to Jeeps, well I don't even want to go there.

May be I am a M&M fanboy - I owned an Invader for 7 years, modified it heavily for lifestyle purposes, went through innumerous pains and a ton of of money. Still it broke my heart when I had to give that damn thing away because the wifey was not able to cope with no PS. For good or bad, buying a Mahindra is like buying a bullet. Make the jump ONLY if you are ok with this.

FWIW, if my wife is able to drive the Thar without much hardship, this is going to be my third car.

Finally for the modifiers: I had modified my Invader to have 4 seats + hard top at one point but got into trouble with hyderabad RTO when I had to get my number plate changed (another M&M screw up - story for another day). Finally I had to get the hard top removed (because RC said soft top) and seats reinstated (RC says 8 seater) before RTO complied with my request. So tread carefully when you mod your vehicle, and always hold on to your old seats / soft tops. Better make the mods in a way that it will be easy to rollback to original shape, just in case you have to transfer your vehicle across states or something.

[shankar.balan]

Cannot understand the "gap" in communication

One would assume that when a company as big as M&M release a product into the marketplace and position it as a Lifestyle Off Road Tough vehicle and price it at Rs 7 lacs -ish , they would at least ensure that they provide good quality of fit and finish. Or am I missing something here or are my expectations unreasonable in this?

I certainly cannot be bothered about their internal constraints. I would go so far as to say that I couldnt care less about their internal foibles. Budget constraints forsooth!! Any company in today's world had better keep an eye on the consumer's expectations when it comes to the total package that they are releasing into the marketplace at a pretty healthy price tag!! I dont think this is un-reasonable to expect, as a consumer.

As a consumer and a pretty loyal customer of M&M, I personally am sorely disappointed in them if they think they can get away with this kind of quality, whatever be the reason.

As a family, we have had some species of M&M vehicle lurking around at home for the last 30 odd years so I am darned well entitled to sound off a bit! (At least the way I see it.)

This Thar vehicle is now in the marketplace at Rs 7 lacs plus. I cannot imagine how they can release something of this kind, given such poor quality of fit and finish into the marketplace.

You may remember that the poor little Premier RIO attracted much bad press from a lot of us on the forum as well as from the auto magazines and a host of others in terms of its fit, finish and overall quality and "feel". Funnily enough even that poor little Rio was priced around the same if I remember right - 7.6 odd lacs on road Bangalore.

So why can we not accept some criticism of M&M too if they attempt to palm off similar rubbish quality to the consumer in the marketplace?

I definitely think and agree that M&M deserves to be appreciated for the thought process and bringing the idea of a retro off roader to life.

But ye GADS!! their quality of execution in this Thar avatar leaves me speechless with disgust!! Boss - spare me! I want no more part of it!!

(Maybe Im being a bit dramatic but as a person who has remained a M&M loyalist right down to the vehicle I use right now, I feel very let down because I believed greater things of them.)

M&M have scored a spectacular own-goal, in my opinion, with the interiors, fit and finish in the THAR!

Originally Posted by SubuS

My first post - so be gentle folks

1. I see a lot of people questioning how M&M can come up with such bad interiors, and when M&M gives an explanation about budget constraints etc. The same folks say "You can't bother us with internal corporate details"! I sense a gap in communication.

2. I read on some FB page that they spent 5 crores for the R&D of Thar.

[VW2010]

M&M have scored a spectacular own-goal, in my opinion, with the interiors, fit and finish in the THAR!

I think its the pricing that makes us feel this way. Had this Thar been priced around 5L we would not complain much. The biggest question to answer before buying this car is, is it worth paying 7l for this piece of machine and is it really VFM.

Even a rich hobbiest would think thrice before picking thar for his off roading fun, let alone people who want to use this as an utility.

M&M should atleast check their basic standards they have set with Scorpio and Xylo to understand the expectation from the people. I previously said and i again say, i would rather pick an old jeep and modify with all fancy stuff and still pay little over 7L.

One word from looking at the pictures - The jeep doesnt even feel like a new jeep to me.

[droolingvoyager]

Wonderfull review read once and viewed the video -Awesome

lifestyle car - (no style + no safety features) = 7L

Its funny to see so much hype, and the fuzz is out already before the first Thar rolls out in Bangalore. Even before the Dealers can tell me the price of one! Honestly I was planning on a lifestyle vehicle. I have postponed it and will remain content for trekking where my car cannot go.

I wouldn't take away the merits although. The torture the thar was given By Khan and Tejas was mind boggling. I am sure few Thars will now get sold just for the awesome performances. Few like me on shoe string budget (by SUV standards) eyeing for a lifestyle vehicle will probably walk away.

For the matter a Xenon XT makes much more sense for life style and a Modified MM540/550 makes sense for off roading.

Unfortunately, still 2 cars are required if you need for off and on road. My Hopes of one car are dead .

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

15 years back MM launched the Classic. Then it was squarely targeted at "LIFESTYLE" buyers.
========
Somewhere in between MM should have merged both...

If i were M&M and target was same "Life style". I would have really taken a paper and pen and started afresh. 15 years the whole meaning of the word "life style" has changed.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

One would assume that when a company as big as M&M release a product into the marketplace and position it as a Lifestyle Off Road Tough vehicle and price it at Rs 7 lacs -ish , they would at least ensure that they provide good quality of fit and finish. Or am I missing something here or are my expectations unreasonable in this?

Well said!

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I certainly cannot be bothered about their internal constraints. I would go so far as to say that I couldnt care less about their internal foibles. Budget constraints forsooth!! Any company in today's world had better keep an eye on the consumer's expectations when it comes to the total package that they are releasing into the marketplace at a pretty healthy price tag!! I dont think this is un-reasonable to expect, as a consumer.

Again add 3 cheers to you!

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

So why can we not accept some criticism of M&M too if they attempt to palm off similar rubbish quality to the consumer in the marketplace?

Another valid point!

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

But ye GADS!! their quality of execution in this Thar avatar leaves me speechless with disgust!! Boss - spare me! I want no more part of it!!

Same here!

Thank you Sankar, we share the exact same thoughts about this product. I have just lost interest debating it also now.

Originally Posted by SubuS

1. As someone pointed out, the vehicle is positioned as a Off road vehicle, but to have a real off road vehicle, you will need a bunch of mods anyway.

Then again M&M got it wrong!

Originally Posted by SubuS

2. What I don't understand is why the hard-core off roaders can't take the solid axle DI vehicle, get nice tyres and a lift kit if needed - and do the off roading in that.

Many who can manage to get it registered might just buy the Di.

Originally Posted by SubuS

I had a conversation with DB, and partly I do agree with him (NO - these are not his views.). This vehicle is targeted at the hard-core "Modders" out there like me (He has repeatedly mentioned this in his posts) - and not the hardcore off roaders / pure lifestyle folks. For Modders like me, cheapness of vehicle is paramount. We don't want a bad set of alloys from the company that we will get replaced on day 1. What we want is a basic chassis with basic interiors - and I guess I am content as a cow here because my needs have been completely met

First of all who in his right minds will pay SO much for a basic platform? and that too to mod on it, which means add more expense. If i go as a customer say to Allen who is into this business? Do you think he will suggest Thar Crde or MM550 with a scorp engine?

Right now it will be easier and more profitable for him and me to work on a 550 project. Yes he has already done it.

Originally Posted by SubuS

FWIW, if Mahindra is to put in the right effort into finish / HT/ AC - the vehicle price would have gone up by another 1.5L, (See the other 100 bhp / high torque good interior SUVs in market. Don't compare it to some 50 bhp "car") which honestly I would have hated - because I would have thrown them out right away anyway.

I really don't understand your logic. You mean to say an advanced diesel engine like Fiat Multijet + Completely new platforms like a Punto/Swift or for that matter Manza, which has so much of parts and refinement built into it should cost less than Thar?

Do you think M&M has done more than 20% of new parts development exclusively for the Thar? Almost 90-95% parts are reused from the other platform. Only the assembly line would have been configured.

So give me one logical reason why i should pay 7.3 lakhs of my hard earned money on this? Because am mad about this business called offroad and i am a fan of home bred manufacturers. M&M is taking all of us for a ride with this price and the configuration that they are offering us.

Yes they are not there for charity and should make business sense, but then atleast give me a half decent product which i will be proud of owning at this price point.

Originally Posted by SubuS

I would just thank DB/Spike for putting in the energy in addressing this tiny modder segment

You seriously believe this??!

Originally Posted by SubuS

Don't judge a book buy its cover. Interiors can be rectified, dash/seats can be replaced. May be you don't want to - but that's your opinion. But rubbishing the whole vehicle is uncalled for.

I can talk for myself and I am not rubbishing the whole vehicle, only point am making is am not getting a half decent product for the money i am paying with the current Thar Crde.

Either it has to make sense to my lifestyle side of brain by providing AC/Lockable cabin/Alloys etc with decent finish OR It can be a bare bone crude BUT a master offroad vehicle.

Thar Crde is none of the above. Its a compromise for both the audience.

[VW2010]

For good or bad, buying a Mahindra is like buying a bullet. Make the jump ONLY if you are ok with this

Honestly the QA of bullets have gone a long way. The new age bullets are far better compared to the old ones. And I would not compare buying Thar to a bullet. I atleast know I am paying 1L for the looks and heart of the classic RE with better quality and much better finish.

If the point of arguement is that Thar is for those who want a basic platform to do their modification then M&M have failed miserably pricing it so high.

I can compare the pricing of thar with Aria pricing where Tata could have flooded the streets with Aria by simple pricing it within the 15L category.

[diwakarmuthu]

Khan & Tejas, a brilliant review. This is one vehicle I was eargely looking forward and quite impressed with its simplicity, however the pricing and the VFM equation that it offers are not pleasing to the wallet. A few letdowns that are coming to my mind:
1. Design is too retro, could have some new age definition to it IMHO
2. Alloys would have looked good if it had some more muscle
3. Pricing, too good, but it would have made it a steal if we had some good features attached to the car, like an AC, the cover for the driver area, etc.

[SubuS]

For some weird reason you guys can see my second post but I cant

I have said this already - but still I will repeat it: This is not a milestone product in M&M history - more like a small sign board. Which is why IMO they have not been able to satisfy either one. I don't think you can deliver a real vehicle in Indian conditions (considering the RTO) with a 5 crore budget anyway.

There are indeed some of us who need a removable hard top so that we can add it when it rains / in heat - and we can remove it and pull a stunt like this -

YouTube - Ennai Konjam Maatri - Kaakka Kaakka

whenever we feel like it. (Oh yeah, am buying it for lifestyle - not "hardcore" off roading. start laughing now) I don't think there is technology in M&M to build a removable hard top like the wranglers (not at the price we want it at anyway), So I wouldn't have bothered with their hard top even if they had one. Honestly, have you seen the hard tops they make? http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1708309 looks ok'ish bordering on ugly to me. I would rather build it myself - I did exactly that for my invader (see gallery).

Rebuilding 550 with new engines - go ahead with it and give it a shot. Good luck - It might work out technically, but I am not a mechie. I don't understand internals - closest I would modify to vehicle internals is better tyres / rims, but that's about it. And good luck with RTO when you try to reregister it / transfer states etc. I have been through tons of issues that I can't stand the thought of waiting in another RTO office for weeks. Again, there must be many folks like me who would rather leave the delicates alone and do some overall plastic surgery.

You do mention advanced platforms like Manza. Do you have numbers around $$$ that went into R&D, "homologation" etc. for that? And compare SUVs with other SUVs - not cars please. I have driven Wranglers in US and Lincolns too. People who are used to the latter, hate a jeep. But for me with an invader background, it was a godsend!

I believe the energy that went into addressing the modder segment, because that's what DB repeats in every post! Gotta give the man some credit if we are going to look up to him for advice.

Money / worth / affordability are personal choices. I believe a Submariner is the best watch I could have in the world, but my wife is not ready to accept I want to spend $6000 on a watch. Now I can argue all I want, but I am not gonna convince her. Same way, people who say 7L is expensive would have found 5L ok, but then we would have to hear the 3L folks harp about it. There is no end to it.

When you compare vehicles, compare equivalents. There is no SUV equivalent to Thar today in terms of price. The closest: is the discontinued Invader - which I got for 4.25L 7 years back. Adding inflation costs, and a much better engine - I think Thar is a HUGE jump. The fact that I can run AC 24/7 without radiator heating up every 15 mins / have company fitted PS / Speeds of 140 kmph instead of 100 / retro jeep styling instead of odd (IMO) bolero style and so on are godsends for me and I will gladly pay 1.75 extra for these (without counting inflation). Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by VW2010

Honestly the QA of bullets have gone a long way. The new age bullets are far better compared to the old ones. And I would not compare buying Thar to a bullet. I atleast know I am paying 1L for the looks and heart of the classic RE with better quality and much better finish.

I can compare the pricing of thar with Aria pricing where Tata could have flooded the streets with Aria by simple pricing it within the 15L category.

I own a RE 500, my dad owned multiple bullets. Believe me when I say this, the looks might be better. But it remains a bullet at heart - flooded with minor niggles (fork scratches / paint rust / my air filter box bursting open suddenly / EFI problems - the list is not quite finite).

A person who can pay 15L, WILL pay 17L and buy it - if the car is convincing enough. 2L is not much of a difference for a guy who is pumping 15L into it. (again, all stereotypes are false). A person who would have never paid 15L, will keep harping about the price

Think about this: There were VERY few 20L cars on road. Then fortuner comes along - every corner you see a fortuner! Which just means people will pay - if it is for the right car. ARIA must have its issues if it is not being a super duper success. ( Sorry - I don't track it).

[2500cc]

Per my understanding, I think the folks at M&M had to work on Thar with a Shoe-string budget. If this was the case then I fail to understand why they didn't think of adding the 4x4 setup in Bolero VLX and price it at 8L. I think this would have saved lots of time and money for M&M. IMO, 4x4 Bolero Vlx would have made more sense would have set the sales chart on fire isn't it ?

[prince_pervez]

Most members I see here that are dissapointed on the fit an finish forget that maybe later versions can reslove these issues. I think with the pressure to release this product the interiors can be excused, minus the safety. For everything else there is always the Gypsy or a car. Enthusiasts won't have second thoughts and buy the Thar as is and file off the rough edges and plastics as a part of their initial mods, wear leather gloves and go OTR. Others can wait for the next releases of the Thar.

[codelust]

I'm still undecided whether this is a good buy in a year's time or not. I am not an offroader, but I am someone who does long distance touring - at times over terrain that is not very liked by my hatch. Just trying to get a better understanding of my dilemma.

1. The pricing does pinch - at least it feels so when I look at the finished product. But what is the cost of the cheapest vehicle out there with a 2.5 CRDE engine?

2. Much has been said about the hot hatches being cheaper. It is different economics at play there. The Thar would not be in my consideration if I am going to make comparisons with those cars.

3. From what has been said here, a the Scrops with a similar IFS set up has given a lot of grief in the OTRs, but can we at least not keep saying it like it will happen for sure in the Thar's case till we start to see it? The perception is almost there now that this will certainly break, OTR or not, which is wrong. I believe it is something on the lines of being considered innocent till you proven guilty, even though you are standing with a gun in your hand at a murder scene.

4. I am going to wait it out till the first ownership reports come in. There is much clouding judgment here (expecations, disappointment etc) at the moment. I still believe that if the vehicle behaves like a gem in 90% of the cases, the story can change and by a lot.

[khan_sultan]

Originally Posted by SubuS

...I read on some FB page that they spent 5 crores for the R&D of Thar. Did you know that you can't get a decent bungalow in Adyar for 5 crores today? ....

Originally Posted by SubuS

..... I don't think you can deliver a real vehicle in Indian conditions (considering the RTO) with a 5 crore budget anyway....

Originally Posted by 2500cc

Per my understanding, I think the folks at M&M had to work on Thar with a Shoe-string budget. ....

Why should we as customers be bothered if the budget was 5 crore or 2.5 crore or 600 crore??

What people are complaining about is the fact that an EXCELLENT vehicle (from a mechanical perspective) has been let down by appalling/cheap interiors, general fit-n-finish, lack of A/C & HT. That's it..!!.
In all other areas, the Thar is a very capable vehicle for most of the needs of most people and is UNBEATABLE in the balance of superb on-road performance + decent offroad capabilities.

As enthusiasts we appreciate the hard work done by DB & team but as paying customers we will need basics of the vehicle to be spot on in few areas. Are we asking for the moon here??

... I would just be happy with the great engine there. ..

Best of luck. Go ahead, honestly, people will buy what they see value in. As you can see by the responses here, most people think other wise and want FULL return of the money they pay to M&M for this Thar -- including the interiors.

Right now it seems that M&M wants us to be like the old ambassador customers. Take Thar from Mahindra and then take it to the garage to rebuild it -- the way ambassador used to be done. If that's what Mahindra was thinking, they have got it wrong...!!!!

Originally Posted by prince_pervez

... Enthusiasts won't have second thoughts and buy the Thar as is and file off the rough edges and plastics as a part of their initial mods, wear leather gloves and go OTR.

Almost all the enthusiasts already have their very capable Jeeps & Gypsy's for the OTR's and they arn't buying the Thar anytime soon.

Others can wait for the next releases of the Thar.

Actually it is this market segment that will be the MOST disappointed as they were the perfect customers for Thar. And they have to wait for V2. Question is, who will buy the V1?

Originally Posted by codelust

I'm still undecided whether this is a good buy in a year's time or not. I am not an offroader, but I am someone who does long distance touring - at times over terrain that is not very liked by my hatch. Just trying to get a better understanding of my dilemma.

The Thar is perfectly suited for that. Just put in an A/C & HT and you are set to cruise all day along in the Thar. It will eat highways for b'fast, lunch & dinner. Infact, it is one of the few cars that is a pleasure to drive BOTH in the city & highway. This has been mentioned in the report also.

4. I am going to wait it out till the first ownership reports come in. There is much clouding judgment here (expecations, disappointment etc) at the moment.

Perfect. a very sensible way. I would do the same if I were in your shoes and had not driven the vehicle extensively myself.

I still believe that if the vehicle behaves like a gem in 90% of the cases, the story can change and by a lot.

Oh, the Thar will behave like a GEM in 90% of the cases for sure. No doubt about that...!!!
We all do realize that the absence of A/C, HT, and interiors will NOT impact the "performance" of the vehicle per-se. However, these things DO MATTER in the ownership, living with the vehicle, comfort/pleasure, luggage safety etc and these factors play a role in decision making while buying any vehicle.

[salilpawar1]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Cannot understand the "gap" in communication

One would assume that when a company as big as M&M release a product into the marketplace and position it as a Lifestyle Off Road Tough vehicle and price it at Rs 7 lacs -ish , they would at least ensure that they provide good quality of fit and finish. Or am I missing something here or are my expectations unreasonable in this?

Please explain why a Gypsy costs Rs. 6.5 lakhs. The Gypsy has remained unchanged for the last 15-odd years except for the minor changes to the engine. It's not a question about two wrongs making a right but rather the price of a product is dictated by a lot of other factors. If Maruti can sell the Gypsy with a hard top and a Diesel engine at even Rs.7 lakh on-road, I'll join the Thar bashing as well.

The Legend, which was way ancient compared to the Thar, costed Rs. 8 lakh on road and this was before the recent inflation, mind you.

Mahindra would have provided higher quality bits but then the price would have escalated to close to 8 lakhs. The MM540 shell was never designed to hold a plastic dashboard. M&M had two options: Design a completely new dashboard or to improvise (jugaad) on the Bolero Dashboard. They chose the latter because the former was expensive. You win some, you lose some.

I certainly cannot be bothered about their internal constraints. I would go so far as to say that I couldnt care less about their internal foibles. Budget constraints forsooth!! Any company in today's world had better keep an eye on the consumer's expectations when it comes to the total package that they are releasing into the marketplace at a pretty healthy price tag!! I dont think this is un-reasonable to expect, as a consumer.

As a consumer and a pretty loyal customer of M&M, I personally am sorely disappointed in them if they think they can get away with this kind of quality, whatever be the reason.

If Toyota or Maruti Suzuki or GM or Daimler Chrysler can make a better machine (read a low-volume off-roader) at EXACTLY the same price point, the premise can be accepted. And a Wrangler doesn't cost even Rs. 12 lakh on road, much more than that.

The Thar is a special case. It's not a make or break vehicle for the company fortunes. It's just a product which is the culmination of the passion of a few enthusiastic individuals.

As a family, we have had some species of M&M vehicle lurking around at home for the last 30 odd years so I am darned well entitled to sound off a bit! (At least the way I see it.)

This Thar vehicle is now in the marketplace at Rs 7 lacs plus. I cannot imagine how they can release something of this kind, given such poor quality of fit and finish into the marketplace.

Check the above mentioned reasons.

You may remember that the poor little Premier RIO attracted much bad press from a lot of us on the forum as well as from the auto magazines and a host of others in terms of its fit, finish and overall quality and "feel". Funnily enough even that poor little Rio was priced around the same if I remember right - 7.6 odd lacs on road Bangalore.

It didn't sell because it was a Premier. Zero dealer network, Zero advertising, Zero service backup.

So why can we not accept some criticism of M&M too if they attempt to palm off similar rubbish quality to the consumer in the marketplace?

Some criticism? Every alternate post is talking about the same thing. . The interiors are pathetic. Point taken. What's next?

I definitely think and agree that M&M deserves to be appreciated for the thought process and bringing the idea of a retro off roader to life.

But ye GADS!! their quality of execution in this Thar avatar leaves me speechless with disgust!! Boss - spare me! I want no more part of it!!

(Maybe Im being a bit dramatic but as a person who has remained a M&M loyalist right down to the vehicle I use right now, I feel very let down because I believed greater things of them.)

M&M have scored a spectacular own-goal, in my opinion, with the interiors, fit and finish in the THAR!

I really don't agree on the last point. Note that I am not justifying the bad finish. It could have been better but why so much noise over a dashboard. If it is so bad, then just get rid of it and fit the MDI 'dashboard'. Who needs it anyway?

Originally Posted by VW2010

I think its the pricing that makes us feel this way. Had this Thar been priced around 5L we would not complain much. The biggest question to answer before buying this car is, is it worth paying 7l for this piece of machine and is it really VFM.

Even a rich hobbiest would think thrice before picking thar for his off roading fun, let alone people who want to use this as an utility.

M&M should atleast check their basic standards they have set with Scorpio and Xylo to understand the expectation from the people. I previously said and i again say, i would rather pick an old jeep and modify with all fancy stuff and still pay little over 7L.

One word from looking at the pictures - The jeep doesnt even feel like a new jeep to me.

A CRDe Mahindra at 5 lakhs. Haha. On which planet are you living?

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by salilpawar1

The Thar is a special case. It's not a make or break vehicle for the company fortunes. It's just a product which is the culmination of the passion of a few enthusiastic individuals.

Couldn't have said it better. Right now, largely, it caters to the enthusiasts and gentlemen running farming/dairy errands.