[navpreet318]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

+1. Well said. Just one look at the Thar fanpage on facebook says it all: 60,000+ people like it. 99% of them call it the desi Hummer and the greatest off roader ever and what not. Makes for amusing reading sometimes.

I bet in Punjab just like the Royal enfield is known as "Sadda bullltt", this will be known as "Sadda Hummer".

I am sure this will sell the most in north india.I can already imagine what the "Gedi Route" in chandigarh will look like in the coming months.

Thars chasing sweet ladies in sweet sedans.And after the armada grand i will again have the opportunity of jumping dividers.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

+1. Well said. Just one look at the Thar fanpage on facebook says it all: 60,000+ people like it. 99% of them call it the desi Hummer and the greatest off roader ever and what not. Makes for amusing reading sometimes.

^^ How many FB users will actually end up buying it? It just requires one click to like on FB. Most have clicked just to look cool.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I bet in Punjab just like the Royal enfield is known as "Sadda bullltt", this will be known as "Sadda Hummer".

I am sure this will sell the most in north india.I can already imagine what the "Gedi Route" in chandigarh will look like in the coming months.

^^ Punjab and Chandigarh already have their share of Bling 'Dabwali' Jeeps.

[Cyrus43]

@Tejas, there has to be something wrong in that gauge then. it just cat be that low that quick. how much were you ripping it!!!! But also, the Bolero drinks diesel like CRAZY!! Result of a very heavy right foot perhaps!

Someone talked about a car driven at 65 kmph in the top gear at 2AM as the way I used to do FE Runs. I suggest you keep your comments to yourself if you do not know how Indian Auto Publications do their FE runs. Thank you for your valuable comments though, we know how much you know now.

@Tejas, that facebook page is mighty funny!! I read it regularly.

@navpreet: The engine is basically a Scorpios engine. The Scorpio 2.6 block is the same as the 2.5 black in this. This is the export version (Spikey correct me if I am wrong please) The Bolero CRDe stickrs on some of the parts are shared parts from the bolero...but they did come from the scorpio initially.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

if you do not know how Indian Auto Publications do their FE runs.

Very serious question, i would really like to know how this happens? I always thought they gave us the values for real life scenario's when they calculate FE? Unlike ARAI method which is way off.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear all – I have received a PM. The questions are extremely good. I am replying here point by point, so everybody can benefit.

Question – OK, so there is a lot of Thar bashing going on. Let's change it.
My answer – India is a democratic country. Everybody has a right to say what they want. Good people get bashed up in our country. It is normal. If it did not happen, I would be surprised.

Question - Frankly, I am 70% convinced to buy the Thar. 30% not, because of the whole IFS commotion saying it's fragile. Is it really so fragile?
My answer, mentioned here for all to read, understand and appreciate – there is absolutely nothing to even remotely suggest that the “Independent Front Suspension” (IFS) of the Thar is fragile. The suspension on each side consists of a lower control arm, an upper control arm, a torsion bar and a shock absorber. The two sides are connected by a stabilizer bar. You seem to have two main apprehensions, 1 ----- the CV joints will break, and 2 ----- the suspension bushes will not have adequate life. Please remember that any suspension has design jounce and rebound characteristics. If you remain within the limits of the design, there is no reason to expect any failure of CV joints. The main reason why CV joints fail is due to a phenomenon called “necking”. This means that if a CV joint gets stretched or compacted beyond its design operating angles, in other words if the CV elements operate beyond their design domain, in limiting condition, the balls and sleeves would rub each other. This is known as necking. In general, as a rule of thumb, a 30% margin (hint!) from design critical value is kept to ensure a mathematical design life expectancy of infinity in such critical components, yes, infinity, that means the CV joints will last the life of the vehicle. The life of a representative vehicle is defined as 3,50,000 kms. Therefore, if you remain well within this tolerance band, I do not see any reason for you to become anxious. I have seen “those modified vehicles” ! and it will be best if I will refrain from commenting except for the smiley. My above comments are sufficient. Therefore, please remove that silly notion from your mind that CV joints will break. There is something like engineering in this world. If followed, they will not break. The answer to point 2 is that from 2005 onwards, we have completely changed the design assumptions of front suspension control arm bushes. The inner sleeve thickness is increased. The tooth angle on the inner sleeve is changed. The omega (angular dimension) for unit torque is drastically reduced and the torque procedure / sequence is upgraded. As a lot has been mentioned about my Thar MH01V521. I am very happy to see that my effort is appreciated. I will give an example of another 4 wheel drive Scorpio which was run for 1,36,600 kms in a target period of 13 months and the front suspension demonstrated exactly same result after 13 months as when it was new. Tyre life isalso one parameter to judge this by. So, what is “target performance”? Conduct suspension performance characteristic tests before and after a life test. The graphs must match. They do. And, by the way, 100 cycles of our ADT (accelerated durability trial) is enough the break the backbone of any vehicle if it is not good enough. And nobody prevents you from doing whatever you want to your vehicle after you register it. MH01V521’s twin has gone through theADT test twice! And everybody knows that MH01V521 is a life test vehicle. Everybody knows what hell it goes through everyday. It just came back from Jaipur, setting roads on fire all theway. Everybody has seen its potency when it explodes. And, by the way, we have removed the rubber bushes from the stabilizer bar and introduced ball joints to reduce friction.

Question - I can live with the dashboard. I will make my own hard top and AC I will fit.
My answer – cool! If you want help, tell me, there is a correct way to do things.

Question - Now I need help from you for the following: I want to put 31x10.5 x15 or 16" tires. What all will I need to change or strengthen? I can cut the fenders. OK with it. Can I put wider axles?
My answer – Please cut the fenders because they are “non-load bearing members”. Why do you want wider axles? Except for an ego boost, what does it achieve? Nothing. My dear, at this stage of my career, I don’t have to prove anything to anybody but I still reiterate that a production Thar (521 not required) will run rings around X,Y and Z, all put tgether. Let’s leave it at that shall we? Enough has been said!

Question - Can we put leaf springs in front? If so what will it entail? We can do a shackle lift if something is fouling. This is just a thought.
My answer – no please, you will lose the complete dynamic characteristics of the vehicle. If you are hell bent on doing it for the sake of doing it, for God’s sake ensure that the propeller shaft joints do not “neck”. Also, please don't bugger up the steering geometry and steering input characteristics.

Question - I don't care cruising at 140 kmph. 110 kmph is fine with me. I am not happy with the crawl speed. It's too fast. Downhill is scary. With slush and bigger tires, it will be scarier. Can I go with 5.38? Can you do it for me?
My answer – you can go to 4.55 instead of 4.3 because Dana front axle in this design configuration with 4.55 is readily available. If you want to go to 5.38, I will need to check whether the present Dana will take the matched pair because we are using a hypoid which has a slight tooth profile difference with respect to Dana.

Question - I definitely want MLD.
My answer – it is possible, please call me, I will give you details. Driving technique is slightly different for MLD, I hope you are aware.

Question - I want same brakes as 521 and also same suspension. How can I further beef up the suspension?
My answer – brakes same as 521 will be possible on a one off basis. You will have to change discs, calipers, stub axles, booster, LSPV etc. Cost is going to be high. If you use 521 brakes, you will have to use 16 inch tyres only as the discs are bigger. 15 inch wheels will not fit. 521 suspension is standard, the tyres are P245/75R16 instead of P235/70R16, that's all. And they are not fancy tyres, they are JK Elanzos hghway pattern tyres. Now I hope you will understand how important tyres are. Fancy things are meant to look fancy!

Question – I am game, let's start something, but I really need help here. Let's do a good brainstorm and possible offroading upgrades and then we'll start a thread on making the Thar better off road. What say? Regards.
My answer – please start this thread immediately, today itself. This will finally become "The Real Thar" thread because now we are really talking Thar. Now, you have understood what the Thar is all about. Thank you.

My "sting in the tail" question to you - is 105 BHP good enough for you? You have not asked for more power. After all, there was a Scor---.
My answer - ! I am mad,naa!

SO, WHEN ARE YOU BUYING IT? SEND ME SOME SWEETS IN ADVANCE, WILL YOU?

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

If the Thar can pass through Belgian Pave Tests without a glitch (which I presume it has at the track....spikey your comment on this please) I dont think there should be much of an issue.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

LOL! good one Cyrus! Yes we have Belgian pave tracks, the Thar has done several hundred cycles without any so called "CV joint failures".

I had to look up this Belgian Pave test. Well, most roads in my area are Belgian Pave test tracks during and after monsoon.



This track is tailor made for badroader vehicles like my GV. I drive through all the pot holes like it is a Belgian pave test. My first set of wheels were worn out by 17K, uniformly.

From what I see, Thar or my GV will excel in BP test. Mastering BP test has nothing do to with offroading, but only trail driving. And IFS equipped vehicles can do this lot much better than soild axle vehicles, without killing the passengers.

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

HAHA!! Id love to see "built" jeeps pass through that without doors falling off!!

Cyrus, you really don't know a lot about rebuilt Jeeps. The fully rebuilt Jeeps many of us have are very sturdy. Whenever they fail, it is because of the M&M parts quality than the re-build quality. I can assure you that my Jeep can pass through anything without the doors falling off. So don't think of Dabwali Jeeps while thinking about rebuilt Jeeps.

Hopefully the CMVR guy won't be swinging the iron balls at my Jeep, still I think my full metal dash can handle it.

[offroad_maniac]

Dear Khan Sir & Dr. Jeep,

This is one of the best offroading review one can get to see. Complete with detailed pictures & videos, this is just fantastic. Thanks for doing this.

IMO currently M&M needs to fine tune its interior.
I mean they are same like Boleros & no one seems to complaining the finishing on Boleros, so why is it so bad in Thar?

AND a nice, easily removable Hard Top & A/C.
Please share more warranty details wrt offroading damage in an vehicle sold as an Offroader.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear "OFFROAD MANIAC" - please read my post no 200 above and give your comments.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear all – I have received a PM. The questions are extremely good. I am replying here point by point, so everybody can benefit.
======
Good people get bashed up in our country. It is normal. If it did not happen, I would be surprised.
=========
======
The answer to point 2 is that from 2005 onwards, we have completely changed the design assumptions of front suspension control arm bushes. The inner sleeve thickness is increased.

Thank you for answering it here.

In TeamBHP products are evaluated and NOT people. Last checked the review was on dot and replies were also quite aok, till some people started making biased comments and trying to portray Thar something else Again its Thar and NOT Mr Thar!

Will these new design fit in the older model vehicle? Or is it totally a different design? Asking since i really dont know the model of the vehicle which we have seen the CV's being shredded, again and again. Owner might be moving on to other vehicle is what i have heard.

[Samurai]

Behram, what is the effect of mounting a 60kg heavy winch in the front?

[Cyrus43]

Just a question. If the Thar had a HArd Top(optional) but a factory fitted AC, would you guys have bought it despite the interior fit and finish?

[Jaggu]

At the same on road price? Very honestly i might tilt towards buying

EDIT: To compensate for the interiors, can i have the alloys too

[navpreet318]

Yes cyrus that would have sweetened the deal by a lot.factory fitted stuff means generally more reliability

[raul]

Folks who are going to shell out 7 lakhs have a right to have expectations and be disappointed as do those who have been waiting for the Thar for ages, I think a lot of that is coming through but let's be realistic and not cynical.

Most folks are asking for a Wrangler or at least something close to it, but there is no way anyone can deliver that to you for 7 lakhs in India today, so the criticism has to factor this in.

But if one steps back, how does a company take a product to market. They scope it, understand the target segments, market size, pricing economics and try to make a product that will appeal to that segment at the price. In the case of the Thar with the Scorpio already here the market for a lifestyle 4x4 imho is limited, perhaps to those folks who are avid or want to be jeepers and cannot put up with the unpredictability and effort required to restore a classic jeep and all the issues that come with doing an off factory job. Who else would be a target? The majority want a practical vehicle. A jeep is always a niche, even more so if the market coverage is not global.

From a product managers perspective would you fund a project like the Thar just for India? What will be your business plan? And we do feel a smaller SUV/Jeep like the Wrangler can work here, there can clearly be a market for a vehicle like that with its interiors and off road ability but developing that from scratch here or licensing it will cost big big bucks. That sort of investment would require serious management buy in, complete organizational alignment rather than a one off project, and a proper go to market strategy, and pricing would be way way more, lets talk at least 12-14 lakhs given how much the Wrangler costs in the US and given the pricing we see for cars in India today cost I do not understand how it can be expected to get a well done 4x4 Thar for 7 lakhs.

This is not realistic, we would all then be cribbing about the pricing of all cars here and none would be flying off the shelves. The Thar at this price point was a compromise from conception till now in the marketplace, it had to show somewhere and this thread highlights that. I think it would be either what we now, OR maybe better interiors and AC but with compromises elsewhere OR have or a much more expensive vehicle.

From my understanding making new interiors, new moulds and design costs a lot of money and I think Thar is produced on a shoestring powered by Behrams vision and the best he could do what he had control of, and perhaps some small management buy in without which it would be impossible to do, this is a side project for Mahindra with no real expectation that it is a strategic product for the company, even then clearly someone has done some scientific study on how they will market Thar and make money in its current state to greenlight it. Perhaps all this feedback will lead to further development but I suspect with changes in prices.

[gthang]

A lot of post have been made justifying the Thar and the way it is due to costs, corporate policy, etc., etc.

What is new in the Thar that has made the cost so high?

1. Body Shell? Same as 540, so obviously no costs in making dies, which from my limited knowledge, can be a huge sum, but not the case in Thar, since M&M already has them.
2. Engine? Development of a new engine can be quite considerable. But this is the same Bolero CRDe engine, and from what I hear (70,000 per year?) enough Boleros have been sold to pay for it.
3. Chassis and Suspension. Anything new developed for Thar? From what I understand, this is straight out of M&M parts bin of Scorpio and Balero?
4. Interiors. Does it really look like any money has been spent on the interiors at all?

Now the Thar is being priced at Rs 7 lakh.

Take any other vehicle made in India for Rs 7 lakhs, sedan, hatchback, whatever. Do they have decades old body panels? Will it have A/C? Will the interiors look worse than a rickshaw?

Usually development costs are a big part of pricing for a new car. What development costs warrants Rs7 lakhs for the Thar? Is it the mechanical bits? A base model Scorpio costs about Rs 7.5(?) lakhs. Its got plenty of mechanical bits in it. OK, the volumes of Scorpio are high, blah, blah. Is the Thar slated as a limited edition vehicle? Why the Thar MDI then? Surely M&M is expecting it to be a big seller in rural areas.

So, my question is not why the Thar costs Rs 7 lakhs, but why such a poor product for Rs 7 lakhs?

I appreciate the efforts of some enthusiasts in bringing the Thar to the market, but feel that M&M has betrayed them as well by making the product so poorly and asking such a high MSRP.

I am also pretty sure that the export version of the Thar is not this bad. It is infuriating to see how foreign manufacturers are trying their best to satisfy Indian demands (Etios, Figo) and Indian manufacturers are still of the attitude that Indian consumers deserve only this, and "phoren" markets need better.