[gthang]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Mahindra and Tata excel at very low prices. You get what you pay for. You can't expect Fortuner/Pajero grade engineering at Thar/bolero/scorpio/safari prices.

This is exactly the pseudo logic that propagates such behavior from Indian manufacturers, and use as excuse.

True that you cannot expect Fortuner/Pajero grade engineering, but how about Innova/Tavera, or even Swift/i10 grade engineering? They are at least in the same price range. And what amount do the Indian companies pay for import of components? Why not compare an Indian vehicle with another vehicle in another market without taxes. Wont the mathematics of cost vs. profit be comparable? Is quality the same?

It's OK yaar, it's like that only.

Cheers.

[Harbir]

hey brother, I'm with you. I HATE the "we are like that only" "chalta hai" attitude.

This is not the pursuit of excellence. And low pricing is a very convenient excuse that helps cover up indifference and incompetence, while protecting fragile little egos from criticism.

[gthang]

Originally Posted by Harbir

hey brother, I'm with you. I HATE the "we are like that only" "chalta hai" attitude.

This is not the pursuit of excellence. And low pricing is a very convenient excuse that helps cover up indifference and incompetence, while protecting fragile little egos from criticism.

Right on! Sorry had to use your quote to highlight the fact, but such is the sad state of affairs.

There is a story/myth/folklore about an association called the "Order of the Engineer", in N America, and the members wear a steel ring on their pinkie finger. The story goes that some years ago, a bridge collapsed and some people died. The bridge collapsed due to an engineering flaw. The ring is supposed to be made from the steel of that bridge to remind the wearer of their debt to society, and the implications of their actions.

Might seem off topic in a Thar review thread, but, also seems the most appropriate place to quote it. Using jargon an Engineer does not make.

Cheers

[jeep2thar]

In the US it is typical to trash the Big Three by comparing them unfavourably with the Japanese, Korean and German manufacturers. So it is in India. Maybe this is human nature?!?!?

This talk of how Indian attitude causes poor quality is not productive. Mahindra has listened and introduced improvements. Give them a chance to improve more in the next iteration. Thar is an improvement over venerable "jeeps" of yesteryear. They seem to be getting better all the time.

The XUV500 seems to substantiate my statement.

[Harbir]

The big three deserved the bashing for the terrible product they were putting out, compared to everyone, including the koreans. Trying to make it into some kind of tendency on the part of humans to bash the domestic is ridiculous. Neither Indians nor Americans bash those domestic corporationsthat are actually doing great quality work (say Wipro and Apple respectively, for example)

Mahindra and Tata deserve the criticism they garner because shoddy work deserves frank appraisal. If the world were full only of fan boys, there wouldn't be anyone under whose pressure Mahindra and Tata would feel the pressure to up their game.

As and when they improve their game, they'll get an appropriate level of appreciation for it from the critics.

ANd yes, there is such a thing as an indian attitude, and yes, it does show in the professionalism and decision making of Indian companies, both the good and the bad.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

With my flatout driving style and with my speed consistently high, the production brakes just could not stop the vehicle.

Problem is not the speed but braking the vehicle in an emergency. It just wont stop at the right place unless its a sports/super car. Are you sure the production Thar does not have the same system of MH01V521 ? You must have driven a production Thar - Did you find the braking adequate?

[sinhsha]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Vaidyasaab -

However on MH01V521, I had done the complete system upgradation. It does not need any drilling, cutting or welding because boundary dimensions are common with other models, so are all the aggregates. With my flatout driving style and with my speed consistently high, the production brakes just could not stop the vehicle.
Behram Dhabhar

Dear sir,
Didn't light steering, comparatively high CG and poor aerodynamics were issues at those speed. According to you braking can be improved to standards of MH01V521 without much hassles (Can you direct me to the post if any where you detailed the steps to do so in your natural elaborate style) but what about steering control. Can it be improved also. After the factory fitted AC Thar became available me and my cousin are seriously thinking of buying one (we were following Thar lifecycle from start) and may use this as our daily drives to corporate and natural jungles. But I felt in TD and confirmed the feeling by other owners that steering issue is holding a bit.
We got a proper guidance on insulation by Rajith.
Can we have a detailed post identifying differences(along with pros and cons) between production machine and your MH01V521 alongwith ways to bridge those. I am sure you will love to see more real Thars on road.

[harshavardhan]

Hi,

on reading DB's statement. So, all the while MM was selling a lifestyle vehicle with inferior brakes and the who's who in R & D of MM are aware of it . . .

So, for a lifestyle vehicle costing upwards of 8.1 Lacs - OTR (Bangalore), one has to spend Rs. 30,000/- for Brakes, Rs. 50,000 for HT, Rs. 15,000 for rear seats etc... to make it road worthy ? Come on MM, this is ridiculous by any stretch of imagination.

Will M&M "RISE" to the occassion and own up the inferior product or will it be another round of Vocabulary gymanstics ? Answers please . . .

-Harshavardhan

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Vaidyasaab - I AM READING EVERYTHING. Even if I did not read, I still know exactly what the issue is and what is the PCA (Permanent Corrective Action) to set it right. It is not bleeding. As far as brakes are concerned, I had expressed my reservations many times in all forums as the Thar CRDe is a fast car by any stretch of the imagination, but due to two reasons as I am mentioning below, things did not get implemented.

1. Present system meets cost target.
2. Present system meets CMVR and there is a certificate for it.

However on MH01V521, I had done the complete system upgradation. It does not need any drilling, cutting or welding because boundary dimensions are common with other models, so are all the aggregates. With my flatout driving style and with my speed consistently high, the production brakes just could not stop the vehicle.

There is something which is much more important than cost target and CMVR. I hope that the brakes get upgraded soon. This should have been done as a package on the recently released vehicle.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[amartya sinha]

Originally Posted by sinhsha

Dear sir,
Didn't light steering, comparatively high CG and poor aerodynamics were issues at those speed. According to you braking can be improved to standards of MH01V521 without much hassles (Can you direct me to the post if any where you detailed the steps to do so in your natural elaborate style) but what about steering control. Can it be improved also. After the factory fitted AC Thar became available me and my cousin are seriously thinking of buying one (we were following Thar lifecycle from start) and may use this as our daily drives to corporate and natural jungles. But I felt in TD and confirmed the feeling by other owners that steering issue is holding a bit.
We got a proper guidance on insulation by Rajith.
Can we have a detailed post identifying differences(along with pros and cons) between production machine and your MH01V521 alongwith ways to bridge those. I am sure you will love to see more real Thars on road.

After two pages of product bashing, Indian mentality bashing, even America, Korea got pulled in for THAR, we are back to square one. This shows our passion for vehicles in general and that is why we all are here! it is again my earnest request to people who know their vehicle, to elucidate people like us who are still 'newbies'. We are going to put our money where our heart is, so kindly do suggest us ways to improve upon the existing problem. "Garib bande dua denge saab". We don't aspire to own a 521, because we might never end up doing half of what the owner does with that vehicle. We just want to be safe, and be sure that, whatever we are doing with the vehicle, we are doing it right. I've booked the THAR, and it is going to be my and families daily use vehicle, call me stupid or anything, but whats done is done!!!! Now all i want to know is what are all the possible modifications i'll have to do to make my families ride a little easier (i've have a 3 yr old and a 2 month old, not to mention a wife who is not very happy with the decision). Now i'll have to list out priority based modifications and correspondingly plan vitamin M inflow, which will rule a major part in priority list.

[Harbir]

There are other aspects which talk of indifference and lack of an engineer's ethos, and not of low cost. Such as this this nonsense with inadequate clearance on the stalk. How do you end up with this kind of a design?





Or this:

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

The protruding springs, from the underside of either seat, are a safety hazard. Be cautious else you will get hurt:

Or this:

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

Wonder how long the flimsy window roller will last. It takes some effort to roll the windows up. Do this 10 times a day and you are done with your daily quota of exercising:

oh right. "we had to do it cheap, otherwise we couldn't have done it at all. THe world famous Indian frugal engineering, the jugaad that is the subject of harvard business case studies.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by harshavardhan

So, for a lifestyle vehicle costing upwards of 8.1 Lacs - OTR (Bangalore), one has to spend Rs. 30,000/- for Brakes, Rs. 50,000 for HT, Rs. 15,000 for rear seats etc... to make it road worthy ?

Perfect:
Can I add to this the Mods that you need to make to the Thar to make it Off-Road worthy?
- Redesigned Bumpers
- A half decent Roll Cage
- Suspension / Body Lift
- Beefier IFS set-up
- Tyres (The stock ones just do not cut it)

So, overall 1 Lac to make it road worthy and then 1 Lac more to make it Off-Road worthy?

Disclaimer: I LOVE all Jeeps, and hence by default, I love Thar too. But, that love does not mean that I would close my eyes to all that this Jeep lacks!

P.S. I propose that T-BHP should have a separate Smiley for "RISE"!

[jp1]

I can see where Thar is heading... going the same way as CLASSIC. I am almost decided against it, but still I cant accept the fact that I am not going for it. Atrocious pricing combined with other issues, especially braking. But there is no alternative to Thar available. That is why anything about Thar runs into pages and pages on team-bhp. Only MnM can fix it, hope they will.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Harbir

There are other aspects which talk of indifference and lack of an engineer's ethos, and not of low cost. Such as this nonsense with inadequate clearance on the stalk. How do you end up with this kind of a design? THe world famous Indian frugal engineering, the jugaad that is the subject of harvard business case studies.

Dear Harbir / all - same answer my dear Sir, it is "Standard Bolero Part". Why? Read on!

The correct thing to do was to remove the wiper stalk from where it is in the photograph (with low clearance with the Instrument Panel) and give a separate switch on the instrument panel for the wiper but then that becomes a new development. What all will become new, you want to know? Please read.

1. New Switch for wipers means new vendor to beat your head against, if strategic sourcing finally manages to locate a guy, consider yourself lucky. He will want a drawing first, which some guy in the system may not want to give for reasons completely beyond your control.
2. New combination switch without LH stalk, which the existing vendor may or may not agree to supply "for various reasons" completely beyond your control.
3. New / change in wiring harness for length and end connectors compatibility, vendor is too big and too busy to even consider talking to you, he only talks to a couple of guys who may not talk to him because they are too busy in "meetings", you cannot go to an alternate vendor because he is not recognized, so, chicken and egg situation.
4. New combination switch top and bottom covers without hole on LH side means change in mould tool means inventory control of old / new parts means breaking your head against so many internal departments, I shudder to even type further + almost one year lead time to do anything where tooling change is involved. If you consider making a blanking plug, marketing may not accept aesthetically, and you are not supposed to know anything about aesthetics!
5. New testing DVPs (Design Validation Plans) for new switch, God knows what issues it will bring.
6. This may lead to CMVR implications like internal projections, not allowed in M1 category, Oh my God, save me!
7. Change in project plan and time line which would certainly lead to firing from senior management during "project review" where it is prudent to pretend that you are too afraid to talk, you don't know where the next surprise will come from! .

I could have tried to do everything but then Thar CRDe would never have seen light of day, it would have remained a project forever. Combination switch is only one part, I had the whole car to contend with, similar issues with numerous parts. Can you even begin to imagine what would have happened? My customers like Rajith / Vijay / Deepak Kant Gir and numerous others would not have got their vehicles and their dreams would not have been realized. Today it is selling at around 250 per month which is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. They cannot make more, otherwise it would sell much more, there is a market out there!

THIS IS THE TRUTH. I DID WHAT HAD TO BE DONE. I ALSO FINALLY REALIZED MY DREAM. FOR YEARS, I HAD A LATENT DESIRE TO ONE DAY BUILD THE BEST JEEP IN INDIA. I FINALLY BUILT IT. IT IS RUNNING OUT THERE ON THE ROAD AND THERE IS NO COMPETITION TO IT. PERIOD!

So guys, all of you who keep on saying "juggad-juggad" and all of you who want restyled bumpers, lift kits, beefier parts, hard tops, a half decent roll cage (I have made it for South Africa, our guys don't even sell it as accessories here) and what not, I empathize with you, I understand your frustrations, but I request you with folded hands and a "namaste", please come and work in the "corporate world of presentations" for a year, where "presentations get priority over product". Of course I will always welcome your comments as you are the customers and customer-centricity for me, is paramount. .

I rest my comments!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[GTO]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

but I request you with folded hands and a "namaste", please come and work in the "corporate world of presentations" for a year, where "presentations get priority over product".

How did the same Mahindra build the competent XUV, or Tata the wonderful Aria? How does Hyundai build a Eon for 3 lakh rupees, with overall fit & finish that is 50X better than the Thar at 50% the cost? How did Tata ever manage to build the wonderfully competent Nano (which, BTW, is also built better than the Thar at 1/3rd the cost) in the nasty corporate world?

In each of these, it does appear that product had priority over presentation, no? Don't get me wrong. I was, and remain, a huge fan of the Thar (just recommended it to a cousin yesterday).

[pjbiju]

Originally Posted by GTO

How did the same Mahindra build the competent XUV, or Tata the wonderful Aria? How does Hyundai build a Eon for 3 lakh rupees, with overall fit & finish that is 50X better than the Thar at 50% the cost? How did Tata ever manage to build the wonderfully competent Nano (which, BTW, is also built better than the Thar at 1/3rd the cost) in the nasty corporate world?

In each of these, it does appear that product had priority over presentation, no? Don't get me wrong. I was, and remain, a huge fan of the Thar (just recommended it to a cousin yesterday).

GTO, your questions are valid and the logic is absolutely correct. I guess Mahindra has simply moved on from the "old Jeep" and unless AM or whoever else is the top boss is as passionate about the Jeep as some of the forum members are and less worried about the return on investment, I guess nothing great will come about. They would, perhaps, if the monthly sales were to touch the 4-figure mark. All that said, I still believe they are making a whole lot of money out of the Thar. The product simply has no competition. So the customer is NOT the king.