[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

"Did Ford upgrade their oil recommendation after introduction of DPF in BS-4 TDCi engines from what it was in non DPF BS-3 one's".

If not, I see an issue (and I hope I am wrong).

I just spoke to a service manager, he confirms that BS3 and BS4 vehicles use the same grade oil and they have not been upgraded.

He also tells me that DPF is not there in 1.4 TDCi and he is sure about it. The RSM too says so.

[amit1234singla]

Originally Posted by anilisanil

...
He also tells me that DPF is not there in 1.4 TDCi and he is sure about it. The RSM too says so.

Anil, I know you would have asked, but did you specifically mention for 1.4 TDCi Euro-4 engines? Mustang, Vina and every site on net mentions that Ford 1.4TDCi met E4 norms with DPF. So this is hard to believe. More so as SC's most experience would have been with E3 engines, there would be hardly a case when they would have the need to look at E4 engines in so much detail as those are less than a year old and mostly would have come for only regular service.

Originally Posted by anilisanil

I just spoke to a service manager, he confirms that BS3 and BS4 vehicles use the same grade oil and they have not been upgraded.

Thanks for this, I thought so as well. This is okay if what you mentioned above (no DPF) is true, but (as per me) not okay if they did add the DPF. DPF equipped cars need specific engine oil meant for cars with DPF (ACEA C1 or C2 or C3 rating).

BTW - can owners share which engine oils their SC filled during their services. My dad's car is yet to go for first service but so far I know they use these:

1. Shell Helix HX7 AF 5W30 - meets fords WSS-M2C913-A & B
2. Mobil Super 5W30 - meets fords WSS-M2C913-A & B
3. I heard some SC's using Castrol as well. I called one but they could not tell exact name. I think it might be Castrol Magnatec Professional A1 5w30 -meets fords WSS-M2C913-A & B & C

I think all these are for cars w/o DPF and that is worrying me.

[gemithomas]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

I am still not sure what they mean by active regeneration

This is the process where fuel is injected into the DPF causing the deposits to burn off. This is thereon the chevy cruze diesel. Not sure if this happens on the Figo TDCi. I gues it does not and that must be the reason why the manual recommends the 3000rpm thingy.

Originally Posted by Mustang.101

The DPF is totally maintainance free in the figo. That's why there is no mention of it in the manual.

Originally Posted by anilisanil

I just spoke to a service manager, he confirms that BS3 and BS4 vehicles use the same grade oil and they have not been upgraded.

He also tells me that DPF is not there in 1.4 TDCi and he is sure about it. The RSM too says so.

read this on wiki
"The DV4 (the TDCi available in india) is available in two versions: One, an 8-valve design, uses a Borg-Warner KP35 turbocharger but no intercooler. This is the same turbocharger as the Renault K9K Diesel. It is Euro 3 compliant, but will receive a Diesel particulate filter from 2006 to make it Euro 4 compliant. In Ford, most Citroen and Mazda applications it uses a Siemens SID804 or SID802 common rail injection system, in Peugeot and some Citroen a Bosch common rail system is used.

Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

Anil, I know you would have asked, but did you specifically mention for 1.4 TDCi Euro-4 engines?

.

Yes I spoke to RSM he tells me that TDCi has no DPF as far as he knows and said that he would get back to me, which he did not yet.

Originally Posted by gemithomas

read this on wiki
"The DV4 (the TDCi available in india) is available in two versions: One, an 8-valve design, uses a Borg-Warner KP35 turbocharger but no intercooler. This is the same turbocharger as the Renault K9K Diesel. It is Euro 3 compliant, but will receive a Diesel particulate filter from 2006 to make it Euro 4 compliant. In Ford, most Citroen and Mazda applications it uses a Siemens SID804 or SID802 common rail injection system, in Peugeot and some Citroen a Bosch common rail system is used.

Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Gemi, I read that too. But as Vina mentioned before there is nothing particular mentioned in Ford's UK site about the DPF while it was clearly mentioned for 1.6. And more over if DPF is there a low sap oil is to be used, which is not being used in our case.

So either Ford goofed up about the Oil usage, or the DPF is not present or would not require a special grade oil. I would prefer the second option, anyone would!

I am quoting it here:

Diesel
The 1.4-litre and 1.6-litre TDCi Duratorq engines have been redesigned to give you improved responsiveness, economy and emissions. The 1.6 litre engine also comes with or without a coated diesel particulate filter (C-DPF) that means the exhaust particulates are automatically burnt or cleaned off the filter as the engine runs.

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

Thanks for this, I thought so as well. This is okay if what you mentioned above (no DPF) is true, but (as per me) not okay if they did add the DPF. DPF equipped cars need specific engine oil meant for cars with DPF (ACEA C1 or C2 or C3 rating).

Now I have a quick question, why do you need a separate grade oil for DPF. It is just a simple trap for particulate matter in diesel and a method to clean it off. I do not see anything related to Engine or related moving parts. So how does a special grade oil help?

[amit1234singla]

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Now I have a quick question, why do you need a separate grade oil for DPF. It is just a simple trap for particulate matter in diesel and a method to clean it off. I do not see anything related to Engine or related moving parts. So how does a special grade oil help?

Valid question and I think I can't answer this conclusively. Will try.

Basic purpose of engine oil is to provide lubrication to moving engine parts. But that's the very basic requirement and today's engine oils can do much more than that. If we don't use a proper low SAPS oil in DPF car, then the additives can block the filter with ash. So may be the oil directly affects engine performance which indirectly affects emissions and related things. ACEA C1,2,3 are for DPF cars. E6,7 is for heavy duty commercial vehicles which meet E4 norms (same logic, oil affects emissions). For more details please see the API section on the link below (towards the end). As I said, I don't have a definitive answer but may be Vina can add more. Hope this helps.

Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible

[vina]

Originally Posted by Mustang.101

The DPF is totally maintainance free in the figo. That's why there is no mention of it in the manual.

I asked at the workshop today - forget the maintenance, they could not show me where it was - they looked at me like idiots when I asked where is the diesel particulate filter (I had to call it Diesel Particle Filter, to help them understand - so they started telling me about Fuel filter)

I went at lunch time so most of the mechanics were out, the two who were there had no clue what I was talking about. Let me see if I have better luck tomorrow.



Also: By law DPF has to last a loooong time (1.5L km or 3L km - don't remember the number) in most EU countries. BUT it is not maintenance free - if it is there on the car ECU has to have a diagnostic loop to check the pressure drop ( to initiate regeneration from time to time) and another loop to see if regeneration fails (to prevent damage to components upstream).

Either way mechanics, if trained, have to know.



EDIT: I went to page 326 of this thread and missed all the posts on this page.

Originally Posted by anilisanil

Now I have a quick question, why do you need a separate grade oil for DPF. It is just a simple trap for particulate matter in diesel and a method to clean it off. I do not see anything related to Engine or related moving parts. So how does a special grade oil help?

to partially answer your question (on top of what amit1234singla has written):

engine oil has not just "oil" - it has a lot more intended as well as unitinded stuff. "Mineral oil" has a higher amount of unintended stuff and "synthetic" (which is basically refined mineral oil) has far less of that.

The unintended stuff can be organic as well as inorganic - organic is for example very high melting point wax - usually dissolved in oil but can always be deposited as half-burnt sludge all over the place.

Inorganic is - salts, sand ... you name it + organic compounds with some inorganic atoms in them (e.g. salts made between organic acids and sodium/calcium etc.)


In addition oil has intended inorganic stuff - usually exotic metals like molybdenum and in the past zinc. These help improve the life of surfaces on valves, piston rings etc. Also there are "detergents" to clean up some of the sludge that comes with unintended inorganic stuff from the fuel itself (the part that invariably is missed by fuel filter and the dust that is missed by the air filter)


All of the inorganic material, whether intended or unintended, after burning forms ash. In addition all of the dust etc. that comes with the air forms ash. Also all the wear/tear of the engine components generate ash.

If the size of the particle is very small they will usually pass through the DPF - large particles will get stuck and then small particles will also get stuck to these larger particles.




Better engine oil helps DPF in two ways - (1) by itself it has less ash content (2) it helps in removing (via its detergent action) a lot of dirt from the engine directly - e.g. wear and tear products - and then transports them to the engine oil filter.


Also because low ash content may mean less chance of adding molybdenum/zinc kind of stuff - an oil designed for DPF will have to compensate by (perhaps) using more expensive chemicals that do the same job but create less ash.

[gemithomas]

Sorry to disturb the DPF discussion. But i just got some unofficial news about the Figo. And to me it does not seem too good.

- Exi would loose the Music System and tacho
- Zxi would loose the rear wiper and motorized mirror
- Titanium gets Fog lamps and a close to 20K price increase

Now if this is right something has terribly gone wrong in the learning points Ford has taken back from the Figo Success. @Mustang: Could you please confirm if this is true?

[Mustang.101]

Originally Posted by gemithomas

Sorry to disturb the DPF discussion. But i just got some unofficial news about the Figo. And to me it does not seem too good.

- Exi would loose the Music System and tacho
- Zxi would loose the rear wiper and motorized mirror
- Titanium gets Fog lamps and a close to 20K price increase

Now if this is right something has terribly gone wrong in the learning points Ford has taken back from the Figo Success. @Mustang: Could you please confirm if this is true?

I have no knowledge of this. What is the source of your info?

[amit1234singla]

Originally Posted by gemithomas

Sorry to disturb the DPF discussion. But i just got some unofficial news about the Figo. And to me it does not seem too good.

- Exi would loose the Music System and tacho
- Zxi would loose the rear wiper and motorized mirror
- Titanium gets Fog lamps and a close to 20K price increase

Now if this is right something has terribly gone wrong in the learning points Ford has taken back from the Figo Success. @Mustang: Could you please confirm if this is true?

I posted this earlier but no one replied. Recent ads in TOI of figo mention that prices start at 3.7L (ex/delhi). Earliers ads mentioned 3.6L. 1.2L Lxi being base variant starts at 3.6L in Delhi. Not sure if this is a mistake in ads but might be linked to what Gemi posted above.

On a seperate note, I have written to Ford about the DPF and engine oil confusion we have been discussing. Here is the e-mail I sent. Let's see if I get a response and if I do, will update on this thread.

From: xxx@xxx.com
To: custmail@ford.com
Subject: Technical question on Ford Figo Diesel
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:29:10 +0530

Hello,

My name is Amit Singla and I recently purchased BS-4 Ford Figo Diesel 1.4L Titanium variant under my co's car lease scheme (Regn # xx xx xx xxxx). I had two technical questions about the car and hope you will be able to route my query to the technical team and help me get the answers.

1. Is the BS-4 1.4L TDCi engine equipped with DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)?
2. If the answer to the above is yes, did Ford upgrade their oil recommendation after introduction of DPF in BS-4 TDCi engines from what it was in non DPF BS-3 one's?

The reason I am asking is that Ford's recommended engine oil for this engine is the one meeting approval WSS-M2C913-B. Many dealers are filling oils which do meet this standard, e.g below mentioned oils but these are not low saps oils (ash <0.8%) which are required for cars fitted with DPF (need to meet ACEA C1 or C2 or C3 rating). The use of non low saps oil will block the DPF in 30-40k km's and damage it. Needless to say, DPF replacement is expensive.

1. Shell Helix HX7 AF 5W30 - meets fords WSS-M2C913-A & B
2. Mobil Super 5W30 - meets fords WSS-M2C913-A & B

My car is yet to go for first service and I just wanted to check on this. I am a member of a famous automotive portal in India (www.team-bhp.com) and your answer will help clarifying doubts in the mind of many Figo owners on the portal. Can you please advise me on this?

Many thanks in advance.
Amit Singla
phone #xxxxxxxxxx

EDIT - I hope I have not voilated any portal rules by referring to T-bhp in the e-mail to Ford. Mods, if I did, I am terribly sorry and won't do that in future.

[Padfoot]

@ gemithomas: Confirming your news. Got a call from Delhi Ford just now, asking me to book today or tomorrow. The ZXI is loosing electronically controlled ERVM, Rear Wiper and washer AND increasing in price for 10K. The Titanium is increasing by 20K. GTO, Mustang, someone please shed some light on what is going on. Increasing price PLUS decreasing features is unheard of. Why is ford doing this?

[vina]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

...
On a seperate note, I have written to Ford about the DPF and engine oil confusion we have been discussing. Here is the e-mail I sent. Let's see if I get a response and if I do, will update on this thread.

Great initiative man. I called the SA yesterday evening and she asked a few more mechanics. Nobody had a clue what a DPF is.

In fact they had no clue about engine oil specs, they kept telling me 5W30 - I told them that is viscosity spec, not full engine oil spec and they gave me a look which meant "what the hell is viscosity and what did I do to deserve a customer like you?"

Will be going there in a hour - let us see what they have to say.

[amit1234singla]

Originally Posted by vina

...I called the SA yesterday evening and she asked a few more mechanics. Nobody had a clue what a DPF is.

In fact they had no clue about engine oil specs, they kept telling me 5W30 - I told them that is viscosity spec, not full engine oil spec and they gave me a look which meant "what the hell is viscosity and what did I do to deserve a customer like you?"

Will be going there in a hour - let us see what they have to say.

Well I won't expect a mechanic to know these things, irony is that even SA's or SM's also are not aware. And it's the same across brands not just Ford. You might want to take a look at the oil drum or can yourself to know what you want to know.

Please update with as much detail as possible after you get the car back from service. Which engine oil they used? How much cost (with break-up if possible).

[vina]

Originally Posted by amit1234singla

Well I won't expect a mechanic to know these things, irony is that even SA's or SM's also are not aware. And it's the same across brands not just Ford. You might want to take a look at the oil drum or can yourself to know what you want to know.

Please update with as much detail as possible after you get the car back from service. Which engine oil they used? How much cost (with break-up if possible).

I'm planning to go under a jacked up Figo and trace the exhaust starting from the engine. That way I can ask "what is this" on every component. If there is anything more than turbo+catcon+muffler - we know there may be a DPF even if these guys don't know.

Let me see if they let me do that.

[tj123]

Originally Posted by Padfoot

@ gemithomas: Confirming your news. Got a call from Delhi Ford just now, asking me to book today or tomorrow. The ZXI is loosing electronically controlled ERVM, Rear Wiper and washer AND increasing in price for 10K. The Titanium is increasing by 20K. GTO, Mustang, someone please shed some light on what is going on. Increasing price PLUS decreasing features is unheard of. Why is ford doing this?

I have already booked a Titanium around 2 weeks back, at that time dealer did not mention about any price hikes.

I hope the new prices will only be applicable for upcoming bookings not old bookings.

I suspect this as a part of the face-lift/refresh exercise on Figo which Mustang mentioned some time back on this forum.