Team-BHP - Review: 2nd-gen Honda Jazz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 1344363)

1) The problem is with perception in India. The minute you take an S-class...chop the boot and make it into a hatchback, people will demand that it be priced at 6 lakhs.

If people are gobbling up Honda Citys for 10 lakhs then 7.5 for a City without a boot is not out of line (its built on the same damn platform).

2) I suppose nobody has trouble paying 8 lakhs for a 68 bhp Fiesta diesel or ~80 bhp NHC. What makes you think people want lots and lots of horsepower??

3) Nobody cared for a Palio 1.6 100 bhp even at throwaway prices. My dad just picked up a Civic for 15 and he has no clue how much power it makes and neither does he care.

1) Agreed that this does exist but only to a small extent. After all which car larger than Swift in hatchback segment has succeeded ? IMHO, the posts here are mainly because Honda has not provided a good engine in the hatch. People expected 1.4 and they have right to do so ( may be because I am of the same opinion ). My arguments remains the same. If Swift came with top class interiors with, now lets consider, Maruti Alto engine with a price tag of Rs. 7 lakhs, will we still have similar statements that "Its a good city car with high quality interiors " ?

The platform might be same, but its not just chopping off the boot. The wheel base has been reduced, and mainly the motor is not same if we bring in the Jazz.

2) Fiesta 68bhp has diesel efficiency attached to it, that no matter how hard Honda i-VTEC ( I suppose its capable of lift and phasing both ) tries, will not be able to match. G2HC i.e. NHC managed to perform well. In the review, GTO has clearly mentioned it was not comfortable above 120-130. This speeds are expected from a rs. 8 lakh car. G2HC did cruise well on highways, was good till 140.

3) Exactly, it will not matter if a hatch is available for cheap rates or not ( as you have mentioned in your point no. 1 that its Indian car buying public's perception that hatches have to be cheap ), what matters is value. No body is going to use all horses if 1.4 was available in Jazz, but its matter of value, something very very ciritical for the hatch segment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 1344363)

+1. The problem is with perception in India. The minute you take an S-class...chop the boot and make it into a hatchback, people will demand that it be priced at 6 lakhs.

If people are gobbling up Honda Citys for 10 lakhs then 7.5 for a City without a boot is not out of line (its built on the same damn platform).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 1343642)

For 50,000 more, the City gives you:

1. A 1.5 liter engine & 27 more horses. The City is a great highway car too, the Jazz competent only within the city. By any measure of performance, the City is superior.

2. The City has an advantage in ride quality as well as handling.

3. Automatic available

4. Too early to take a call on this, yet most probably the City will retain its value better when its time for resale.

Therein lies the answer

There is no doubt that Jazz will be competing in the luxuary hatch segment. In this segment we currently have Fabia and i20. Also you can expect Grande Punto next week to be the biggest threat.
If Skoda change the engine of Fabia from 1.2 MPV to 1.2 TSI, than iam sure that will become a serious competitor to Jazz and i20.

Also early next year VW Polo will also comes in with the same 1.2 TSI engine. With all these cars in the foray, it will be big task for Jazz to sell 20000 units in a year as projeted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VahanPujari (Post 1344482)

Therein lies the answer

Well said.

To be precise even compared to its sibling the price difference is 48,000 Rupees. If you split it over a loan what is the difference on the EMI? And Honda had claimed that the City is a little more engineered than the Jazz (during its launch in Thailand)!

Adding to what GTO said...

1. A 1.5 liter engine & 27 more horses.

2. The City has an advantage in ride quality as well as handling.

3. Automatic available

4. Too early to take a call on this, yet most probably the City will retain its value better when its time for resale.

5. Also, the City looks like a teenager next to the Jazz

What about the tax benefits for under 4m cars? Does this 48,000 Rupees include that? If so, with out tax exemption its porice must have been the same as a City!

Which ever way we look at it its damn expensive.

Oh... Fiat GP... Tempt me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaggoswami (Post 1344478)

The platform might be same, but its not just chopping off the boot. The wheel base has been reduced, and mainly the motor is not same if we bring in the Jazz.

2) Fiesta 68bhp has diesel efficiency attached to it, NHC managed to perform well. G2HC did cruise well on highways, was good till 140.

3) No body is going to use all horses if 1.4 was available in Jazz, but its matter of value, something very very ciritical for the hatch segment.

When I say boot chopped, I dont mean someone literally took a saw and actually sawed the the boot.
City may have more wheelbase but the Jazz has a taller seating and taller body that uses more metal and therefore more cost. Not to mention the magic seats. Plus the boot has not disappeared..its more like a wagon.
Also the engine has been made a 1.2 by reducing the piston size. It has all the expensive VTEC technology of its 1.5 brother and is most likely not a rupee cheaper to produce.
Fiesta may be cheaper to run and Swift is even cheaper to run, the point is that people are happy to drive around with 68 bhp. The NHC was petrol and it was no scorcher, had patheric ride AND handling and pathetic touring capability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VahanPujari (Post 1344482)

Therein lies the answer

To? I was'nt really asking any question.

City is for people who want the sedan status, bhp, touring ability. Jazz is for people who dont care about scorching performance or touring ability, want a City car (no pun intended:D) with good ingress/egress, compact size for congested traffic and ease of parking and also flex seating. And since this is India.... most people will find the former more attractive and the sales figures will show that (the Jazz is in a niche segment). In US and Europe Honda does'nt even bother selling the sedan version aka the City.

Lastly let's not forget that the City has cheap quality plastic on the dash.

At the end of the day both cars are overpriced IMO and strictly for Honda fans which there are plenty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbhiJ (Post 1344655)

Not happy with the power... there is none. No fizz in the jazz!!
2nd gear. 40 kmph. You floor the pedal, and nothing much happens!!

Definately overpriced in my opinion.

you gotta wait for the turbo to kick in dude lol: there is a secret turbo for sure in that astronomical price!

Well seriously,put a santro in 2nd at 40 and floor it and it goes all the way to 60+ (70+ w cai/ffe) and how !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 1344608)

. Lastly let's not forget that the City has cheap quality plastic on the dash.

At the end of the day both cars are overpriced IMO and strictly for Honda fans which there are plenty.

I am not sure if this is true. Many people on team-bhp, including me who are not really 'Honda fans', have opted for ANHC. Likewise there will be people outside team-bhp, who see some value in these cars and spend money rather then just going by the brand.
Also, about the quality of plastic on ANHC- I agree it may look a bit drab, but the fit and finish is top notch and by the look we can't say which grade of plastic is being used.

I really don't understand why everybody is pissed off about the pricing.

in US (which I think is an unbiased market because of uniform taxing on various segments etc), fit is priced very close to corolla and civic.

when you can pay upwards of 12 L on the other two cars on india, isn't FIT practical at 8 L? unless americans are ripped off in tihs particular case :)

Quote:

As a Bhpian from Australia mentioned on this thread, In Australia, Honda gave a 1.4 engine & whole lot of features in jazz, and charging the same price as in India.
And here in India, they are giving a meagre 1.2 engine with less equipments, 77% localization and they have the audacity to price it 7 - 8 lacs!
This is nothing but plain duping!

did you take into account the price difference because of taxing in india? I am not aware how other cars are priced in AUS though.

PS: I am not a honda fan. but it just doesn't seem as outrageous as everybody is making it believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 1344608)

1) When I say boot chopped, I dont mean someone literally took a saw and actually sawed the the boot.
2) City may have more wheelbase but the Jazz has a taller seating and taller body that uses more metal and therefore more cost. Not to mention the magic seats. Plus the boot has not disappeared..its more like a wagon.
3) Also the engine has been made a 1.2 by reducing the piston size. It has all the expensive VTEC technology of its 1.5 brother and is most likely not a rupee cheaper to produce.
4) Fiesta may be cheaper to run and Swift is even cheaper to run, the point is that people are happy to drive around with 68 bhp. The NHC was petrol and it was no scorcher, had patheric ride AND handling and pathetic touring capability.

1) Yes, sir, its more of platform sharing.

2) I was trying to bring in the point that despite platform sharing, City has more advantages due to longer wheelbase.

3) One of the most advanced, agreed. Manages valve lift and camshaft phasing both ( from what I have read ) if its i-VTEC. But what is the end result. Does it have typical VTEC like pulling power of top end ? Does it revv like crazy that has made so many fans of VTEC ? Is it significantly better than K12M that is also quite a nice mill ? Considering the price, the engine should have been better thats what my point is. What I believe is that if Honda wanted to avoid any performance overlap, they should bring in 1.4 rather than 1.2 just for tax benefits.
And also to be noted is that the car is in tax concession zone, but still its this expensive.

4) In case of Fiesta, people are ready to drive around 68 bhp becuase they have something more interesting i.e. FE. Moreover the diesel and torque is also quite good, so its relatively good to drive, not that jazz is bad, but just trying to justify why people are happy with 68bhp.

What my point is this : The car is horribly overpriced for what it offers. And what makes the deal bad is the mill that must be 1.4 IMHO.