[Sisu]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Yes ofcourse I would get it changed. Infact I would actually use an even better oil as I am distributor for Motul. It would any day be better than what these guys use.
My problem is not with the money involved. It is with the fact that they have yet again taken a customer for a ride. I have a problem in principle with these guys.

Hi Navpreet,

I can definitely relate with you on this topic. It's not a matter of spending a few thousand from your pocket but the issue of the company going back on its commitments.

It would hardly make a difference in their balance sheet if they do this FOC just to gain the goodwill of a customer.

The AMC policy document should have been carefully worded and be in sync with the maintenance manual but looks like the AMC was drafted as an after thought.

If I was in your place, I would stick to my guns and take this up with higher ups in TATA, especially since they honored the AMC during the 10k oil change interval.

Let's us know how this pans out.

Cheers,


Sisu

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Yes ofcourse I would get it changed. Infact I would actually use an even better oil as I am distributor for Motul. It would any day be better than what these guys use.
My problem is not with the money involved. It is with the fact that they have yet again taken a customer for a ride. I have a problem in principle with these guys.
The thing should have been clear from the start. Our last safari with the 3.0L had oil changes every 5k kms bang on time for all of its 1.1L kms.
What is wrong is wrong. It does not matter if it's 6k or Rs.6.
But then now it just does not matter anymore as Tata is a lost cause for me.

I went for second service @ 10000 on Tuesday and got the same call saying that the oil change is not possible at this stage. He even tried to convince me that there will be no issue at all. I asked him to change oil and filter at my cost. I end up paying 2811/- for the same.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I have tried and used a lot of products. Most of them unsuccessful. From coconut oil to deisel to silicon lubricant sprays to chain lubes. Right now it's Motul chain clean which is sort of working.

Problem with lubes is that they attract dirt and then the problem of glass sticking renews. Especially during the cold weather when almost all lubes thicken and have more dirt sticking to them.

So presently it's the chain clean. Let's see how many hours or days it lasts.

Don't use such cleaners. Not only they attract dirt thereby increasing your problem but also damage the rubber. Please get a rubber softnner spray online. I use it to wipe down all rubber seals on my Storme, every three months. It cleans the rubber parts, softens them and keeps them supple. Thereby all door noises vanish and I have no problems regarding windows rolling up to down.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by condor

Navpreet - it's like this: Standard oil change interval is defined as 20k ( in your model) and 15k in ours. BUT: if you are doing more city runs, then they recommend additional change mid-way. The AMC terms are at Standard intervals only. This is the logic that they will use. We would try to go with max changes, but they will go for Standard intervals.

On a related note, does any AMC plan in India support / include mid-interval servicing ? ( I am Not referring to premium cars)

Very much true, the AMC packages are designed as per standard intervals. Forget AMC even the free services and the oil changes that 95% customers do is as per standard conditions. I always change oil at 7500 kms instead of 15000 by paying up from my own pocket even if the service advisor says the company specified interval is 15k.

The companies cannot afford AMC package of 60k kms with 6 oil changes etc in the same price. Either they should define a separate AMC for such half interval oil changes or the customer has to pay. Even GM had standard AMC package. Hows that with BMW? any idea?

I dont think we can blame the manufacturers here.

[navpreet318]

Amit let's get into the mathematics of it then.
A liter of CI4PLUS oil is for 275. Oil filter is for 220.
7.5L oil for 6 services is roughly Rs.12.5k
Oil filter for 1500.

Adding labour and VAT it will touch 20k. So I pay 45k plus 8k a net of 53k upfront and the company cannot afford these oil changes.

Anyways I have given the vehicle today and asked them to change the oil at my cost. I'm dissaponted at the company though. Hopefully the car will be well taken care of and all issues resolved.

[condor]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Amit let's get into the mathematics of it then.

Again, which company / automobile company worked on cost prices / MRP's ? They have labor costs, infrastructure costs and must sustain business. Not just automobile companies, but today even doctors in hospitals have their targets so that the hospital can make it's profit.

[Simple_car]

Sorry to hear about your experience @navpreet318.

I wish to inform you and the community that this practice is being followed by Ford as well. I to have purchased the total maintainence plan for my vehicle. However, the company is not honoring its claims. I would advise people to stay away from the these plans for the time being till things become clear.

Thanks,
Simple_car

P.S. @condor, just because the companies have to pay their bills does not give them the right to mislead the customers. At least the companies whose brand is not established in the country are expected to be proactive, and not indulge in such practices.

[condor]

Originally Posted by Simple_car

P.S. @condor, just because the companies have to pay their bills does not give them the right to mislead the customers. .

Nobody is misleading anyone. The AMC packages AND WARRANTY terms are for standard service intervals. If a person who buys a car does not understand the terms that the company has mentioned, it cannot be the company's fault.

Let us also not forget that the company Has Not put any restrictions on the owners's use of the car - city or hghway. The owner has to take the call on which service interval he needs to follow, based on HIS own usage. Mixing up the terms cannot be blamed on the company.

[Simple_car]

Originally Posted by condor

Nobody is misleading anyone. The AMC packages AND WARRANTY terms are for standard service intervals. If a person who buys a car does not understand the terms that the company has mentioned, it cannot be the company's fault.

Let us also not forget that the company Has Not put any restrictions on the owners's use of the car - city or hghway. The owner has to take the call on which service interval he needs to follow, based on HIS own usage. Mixing up the terms cannot be blamed on the company.

Well, I don't know about Tata specifically; however, ford clearly mentioned services as per owners manual. The owners manual says that intervals have to be shortened when using in the city/dusty conditions. How do I interpret this? My usage is primarily in dusty climate and stop-go city traffic.

Thanks,
Simple_car

[condor]

Originally Posted by Simple_car

Well, I don't know about Tata specifically; however, ford clearly mentioned services as per owners manual. The owners manual says that intervals have to be shortened when using in the city/dusty conditions. How do I interpret this? My usage is primarily in dusty climate and stop-go city traffic.

So Ford is saying the Exact same thing as Tata is saying. That is the meaning. Dusty climate and stop-go city traffic will constitute extreme driving conditions - and hence you need to get the servicing done more frequently.

Key thing here is that since the company - Ford / Tata / other cannot monitor under what conditions you have used your car, they do not bring up the subject - whether it is for AMC or Warranty. There is an assumption that the usage is in standard condtions, and standard warranty & AMC terms will apply. When we buy the packages, we accept these terms.

However, if our usage is different, then we need to take care of our car. And those additional car-taking steps are Outside the standard terms - and hence we pay for it.

[navpreet318]

Originally Posted by condor

Nobody is misleading anyone. The AMC packages AND WARRANTY terms are for standard service intervals. If a person who buys a car does not understand the terms that the company has mentioned, it cannot be the company's fault.

Let us also not forget that the company Has Not put any restrictions on the owners's use of the car - city or hghway. The owner has to take the call on which service interval he needs to follow, based on HIS own usage. Mixing up the terms cannot be blamed on the company.

The owner has a right to use the vehicle as he pleases!
I am not getting the oil changed on a whim!
It is clearly stated in the owners manual. The owner is following the manual. The manual is a written contract by the company. The AMC is based on maintenance written in the manual.
I am not mixing terms and blaming the company.
I am merely putting forward facts. Written facts. And then presented mathematical facts.

Condor according to you, the company will honour only scheduled services. The company will not honour additional items mentioned in the manual only because it is being used in the non standard way of being driven in city traffic. The company does not work on basic mathematics as it needs to pay bills even when I am only talking about MRP and to the company the oil and filter cost nearly half of the MRP!
Wow!

I'll put it simply. This company was working on shoulders of only some people like BD sir. Rest of them are just KRA targetted excel sheet managers. Simple.
The moment someone writes something about a dealer, they will spring into action and pounce on the dealer. Now that the ball is in their court they are not even daring to have a discussion with me.


Oh and the terms of the AMC. There are no terms of the AMC. Please ask the company to produce a document to that effect. There is none. It is just categorically stated that everything under the manual will be taken care of. Period. Now tell me who is misleading? Do you think it is now a monetary issue now that I have told you the miserly amount of money involved in the oil. Nope. Now it's an issue of taking a customer for a ride by moving away from your own promises.

[condor]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

The owner has a right to use the vehicle as he pleases!
I am not getting the oil changed on a whim!
It is clearly stated in the owners manual. The owner is following the manual. The manual is a written contract by the company. The AMC is based on maintenance written in the manual.
I am not mixing terms and blaming the company.
I am merely putting forward facts. Written facts. And then presented mathematical facts.


Condor according to you, the company will honour only scheduled services. The company will not honour additional items mentioned in the manual only because it is being used in the non standard way of being driven in city traffic. The company does not work on basic mathematics as it needs to pay bills even when I am only talking about MRP and to the company the oil and filter cost nearly half of the MRP!
Wow!

I'll put it simply. This company was working on shoulders of only some people like BD sir. Rest of them are just KRA targetted excel sheet managers. Simple.
The moment someone writes something about a dealer, they will spring into action and pounce on the dealer. Now that the ball is in their court they are not even daring to have a discussion with me.


Oh and the terms of the AMC. There are no terms of the AMC. Please ask the company to produce a document to that effect. There is none. It is just categorically stated that everything under the manual will be taken care of. Period. Now tell me who is misleading? Do you think it is now a monetary issue now that I have told you the miserly amount of money involved in the oil. Nope. Now it's an issue of taking a customer for a ride by moving away from your own promises.

Agree - And nobody is questioning you how you are using it.

When you are changing the oil early, You Are following the schedule for Non-Standard usage.

But the point remains that the AMC terms are for standard usage conditions only. The AMC covers the same number of services that will need to be done IF the car is used in Standard Conditions. So when you want to change the Oil more frequently, you are exceeding the terms of the AMC plan that you have purchased. And hence it will not be covered.

It is not me who is saying the company will honor x and not y. The AMC terms are are available and the company cannot and will not hide it. If you have paid for AMC without asking for -or understanding the terms of the AMC, then how / why Question anyone else ?

What BD sir was referring to was the design - including upto the point the product (each unit) moves out of the factory. I agree with him on there.

After the product is in the market. it is all about regular usage, and maintenance as per schedule published in the owners manual. The AMC charges are calculated with the Standard maintenance / service interval in picture. The charges will be in the range if the charges had been incurred without an AMC. (Note the key words. We pay more for Gold AMC, but we also get some additional benefits. It's like insurance coverage)

[navpreet318]

Originally Posted by condor

Agree - And nobody is questioning you how you are using it.

When you are changing the oil early, You Are following the schedule for Non-Standard usage.

But the point remains that the AMC terms are for standard usage conditions only. The AMC covers the same number of services that will need to be done IF the car is used in Standard Conditions. So when you want to change the Oil more frequently, you are exceeding the terms of the AMC plan that you have purchased. And hence it will not be covered.

It is not me who is saying the company will honor x and not y. The AMC terms are are available and the company cannot and will not hide it. If you have paid for AMC without asking for -or understanding the terms of the AMC, then how / why Question anyone else ?

What BD sir was referring to was the design - including upto the point the product (each unit) moves out of the factory. I agree with him on there.

After the product is in the market. it is all about regular usage, and maintenance as per schedule published in the owners manual. The AMC charges are calculated with the Standard maintenance / service interval in picture. The charges will be in the range if the charges had been incurred without an AMC. (Note the key words. We pay more for Gold AMC, but we also get some additional benefits. It's like insurance coverage)

Again. Read my post again. I am not changing the oil early on a whim. It is mentioned in the manual. I am not going outside the manual.
I have stated in the first post itself that yes it is my fault that I did not get things in writing. But then why can't I blame the company for that too. That needs to be done for the customer.

I am simply stating that I am getting my vehicle serviced as per the manual. Simple. They need to honour it. Period!

Why are you trying to mislead people here that I am trying to get early services? I am not. I am going strictly by the MANUAL!

This is standard as per the manual. You drive in the city traffic, you change oil at 10k. Simple. You drive it in traffic free roads in perfect air conditioned environment, you change it at 20k. How hard is that to understand?

[condor]

Bhai, You are still stuck at the same point. If you want to see it only your way, then so be it.

You can create some ruckus and they MAY do a good-will oil change for you. But the points remain as I have so much tried to explain to you.

Please do not respond to this post, because I am Not taking this further. Any thing else, I am happy to share with you, and open to learn from you too. Cheers !

[Simple_car]

Originally Posted by condor

But the point remains that the AMC terms are for standard usage conditions only. The AMC covers the same number of services that will need to be done IF the car is used in Standard Conditions. So when you want to change the Oil more frequently, you are exceeding the terms of the AMC plan that you have purchased. And hence it will not be covered.

It is not me who is saying the company will honor x and not y. The AMC terms are are available and the company cannot and will not hide it. If you have paid for AMC without asking for -or understanding the terms of the AMC, then how / why Question anyone else ?

Your argument is certainly valid, but you speak legalese. I assume you are a lawyer?

Now, we could have argued if me or @navpreet318 had everything on paper from the company. I don't know about @navpreet318, but before I purchased this plan, I pursued the actual document (which details what is and what is not covered) with ford and its dealer for ~2-3 weeks.

No response from Ford, and the dealer said that the document is never shared by the company on paper. Even now, on Fords website, it is still written that all services as per manual will be covered. Now, for a non-legal person like me, that means the following:

1. Company is saying that they will abide by the owners manual, which enlists the standard and non-standard usage conditions. They have not explicitly said that only stuff which are tested under standard conditions will be covered. Today its the oil, tomorrow it will the failed a/c compressor (Indian summers weren't taken into account) or who knows what will they come up next? (During my last interaction, the dealer said that bulbs will no longer be covered). There is no way for the company or the customer to prove or disprove the actual usage, except if the company will lab test the required parameters. The manual states (very explicitly in Tata, and not so explicitly in case of Ford) what constitutes the standard & non-standard conditions, and the expected actions to be taken by the consumer.

2. The customer is asking the company to honor what is being said in the manual, due to his/her usage, as was promised by the company.

3. Company is not honoring what is being advertised.

Now, I don't know how a legal person looks at this scenario, so I won't comment on it. However, from a businessman's point of view (especially one, who is trying to establish himself/herself), it is definitely not the right way to go (especially to a loyal customer).

It is another matter, that I was going to purchase the plan irrespectively (due to certain very unique reasons), however, it is just disheartening to know the attitude of the company towards its customers. Like @navpreet318, I to don't mind the money, but the approach does not augur well.

Thanks,
Simple_car