Re: Coil Spring Adjusters : VFM Fix for the Honda Civic's (lousy) soft rear suspensio Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath This would be true if the spring were installed directly on the centerline of the tire, which is almost never the case. In the case of the Honda the spring is mounted vertically, but roughly 2/3rds of the way inboard from the wheel centerline. From data that I have with similar architecture vehicles, I'd say the installation ratio is roughly 1.5:1 to 1.6:1.
|
You are right - I missed it in my simple model. However this is like the multiplier you'll expect coming from the action of lever and this will just change the formula I had written with a constant factor.
My reasoning that percentage change in spring rate should be same as percentage change in wheel rate will still be valid. Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
This is almost never the case either....the wheel rate is almost always roughly constant or slightly falling.
|
I guessed it'll remain roughly constant (or falling - if by that you mean spring gets stiffer - otherwise this is not a progressively stiffer rate and I don't see why anybody would want to have an effective springy system that becomes less stiff under higher load. Progressive rate springs actually try to do opposite of that)
As I wrote theta will probably not change much in any well designed suspension - that means wheel rate to spring rate conversion should not change. Also if the initial angle was almost vertical then slight changes will have almost no effect anyway because cos(theta) will still be zero. Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
I did not consider the wheel rate progression for this at all. That was a simple calculation based on only 3 things:
1) Wheel Rate before installation of donut (assumed to be 18 N/mm using data I have for similar vehicles)
2) Corner weight increase at one rear wheel due to 3 passengers of 76 kg each (assumed to be 80% of 3*76/2 = 91.2 kg or roughly 900 N )
From (1) and (2) you can calculate the wheel center deflection at 900/18 = 50 mm.
3) GTO said the rear deflects 12-15 mm less. The best case would be 12 mm, so that gives you a new wheel rate of 900/(50-12) = 23.7 N/mm
which is an increase of roughly 32%.
The only fudge factor here is the 80% number which is my assumption on the weight distribution of the 3 rear passengers. If you assume 100% of their weight is on the rear wheels, then the stiffness increase is something like 25%. Realistically, the rear passengers on a normal sedan result in a 80-90% rear load increase, so I think my 32% number is fairly close to reality PROVIDED the 12 mm number by GTO is in the ballpark.
|
See, my question is that while wheel rate (as defined by you) may be different from the spring rate by a constant factor (depending on lever-arm formed by wishbones, angle of installation ...), that will still not explain why the percentage change in the two should be different. For example if X is two times Y always then if X changes 10% so does Y.
In fact any well designed suspension would have them almost linearly related, and for the 50mm you have calculated compared to the max range for which suspension is designed, the non-linearity will be pretty small (unless it is intended to be present - which your comment on wheel rate being constant tells me is not so)
Also If you just manipulate your estimate slightly (say instead of 18N/mm use 16N/mm - GTO's springs are old and he mentions they have noticeably lost stiffness over the years) you'll get 56mm as the initial deflection and [(56/(56-12) -1)*100] = 27% - practically same as the 25% number that comes from assuming 4 turns instead of 5 (that'll be (5/4 -1)*100 - your calculation insists on taking the smaller number on the numerator this is consistent with that)
Also if in GTO's car the rear passenger's CG is almost completely above the rear wheels, then 100% of their weight will have to be supported by the rear wheels (otherwise in the Force diagram the torques will not balance at equilibrium). For it to be 80% veon rear (and 20% on front) wheels, assuming a roughly 2.5m wheelbase the passengers has to be sitting anout 0.5m ahead of the wheel (CG wise) - I somehow don't believe that is the case. I would actually go with the 90% number (passengers still sit about 1 feet ahead of the rear wheels) - that change in fudge factor alone will make you 32% figure go to 28% - much closer to the original 25% from calculation (and for this you don't have to modify the 18N/mm rate you assumed). In fact if the passengers were standing inside the boot slightly behind the wheels, this will be even worse - that weight supported by rear wheels will be more than 100% (that is to say some of the load will shift from the front wheels to the rear)
Needless to say that relying on 12mm number from GTO and 18N/mm from some similar system you know of is not a very good idea unless you have a theoretical basis of why the wheel rate should change by a different percentage than the spring rate does. Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
Accuracy can be improved if we know the actual wheel center deflection before and after the donut the installed, at the same load obviously, but no one in this thread has done this so far. |
I'll do that in a few weeks once my Figo is delivered and I get a chance to install the donuts.
Last edited by vina : 28th April 2011 at 00:30.
|