[Aroy]

Normally starting problem in a hot engine points to fuel vapour lock. This can happen when
. the fuel lines have a kink or have a vertical bend that forma a half loop.
. when the air vent in the fuel filler cap is blocked.

[cryshnon]

Originally Posted by cryshnon

I have one theory that might sound weird but if all other possibilities have been ruled out, this could be the cause.
Low coolant level!

Sorry for the delayed response. I got the vehicle checked by the FNM and it was a nick on what he described as the 'elbow' which is the coolant supplying pipe below the engine. And the leak won't be visible all the time because the coolant remains inside the radiator and is kept there due to vacuum. But the moment you open the radiator cap, you can notice coolant dripping from the area where the engine is located.


Like I said earlier, when kept halted, the car's radiator fan continued to keep spinning on battery causing it to drain and very little scope for alternator to provide enough power to recharge the battery. After that 'elbow' was replaced,the mechanic told me to just let the car run with only water in the radiator and see if there is any further leakage before adding coolant. It has been five days and I haven't noticed any overheating nor starting problems ever since. However on a really really hot day, after having driven for 25kms and halting at a signal for a 45 seconds with the ignition on, I found the car's temperature gauge go above the halfway mark when I began moving ahead on lower gears. It did go down after a little bit of driving ahead but I wonder why this keeps happening. What if I were to remain stuck in traffic for longer duration in hot weather? Will I have to keep turning off the AC?

[adrian]

The following is a post based on my experience (Warning : Long post)

My 6 year old Maruti 800 MPFI had developed a strange problem. In the morning it would start without a problem and after running for about 4 Kms to drop my Son at his School, the car would be hard to start. Turn the ignition key and the starter would catch and stop. Push the key a bit more and the motor will turn over and start.

Things that I thought would be wrong

1. Faulty starter motor. (I thought that some thing was expanding and jamming the armature when the engine was hot (some thing like "heat sock")

2. Faulty alternator. (The alternator was not charging the battery sufficiently based on the electrical load)

3. Faulty ignition key. (Was not given much chance since the car was starting good first in the morning)

4. Loose wiring. (There was a doubt whether there was loose wiring that was causing a voltage drop; but was not able to find any wires that were getting hot.

5. Bad battery : On checking with a digital meter, the OEM Amaron battery was showing a voltage of above 12.6 volts after removing the surface charge.

While cranking without any load the voltage didn't drop below 10.

Alternator input voltage was 14.1 Volts (without load) and 13.2 volts (with load at idle). But with load at idle, the voltage was slowly dropping like 13.1,13,12.9 every few seconds. So again the efficiency of the alternator was in doubt.

Even though the battery was given the doubt of old age, it had regained my confidence in it by running perfectly without switching the car off on a stormy night with the head lights on with the wipers going full speed and the blower running full blast to remove the windshield fog.

So for the not very experienced me, this was a bit weird. Decided not to take the vehicle to MASS being afraid of what all things they would advise to change and after reading several comments in this thread decided to change the battery as a first step.

So went to Amaron Pit stop and told them the problem. The technician checked the voltage (again it was good). He then asked me to switch off the car and leave the headlights on for a couple of minutes, after which he asked me to start the car. The starter moved and stopped and on further turning the key, the car started !. So once again I was asked to switch the car off leaving the headlights lit. This time the car did not start and the security siren blasted twice (don't not what triggered it). So the technician gave the verdict that the voltage while cranking dropped to 7 volts and the battery was not that healthy.

I said that it was a 6 year old battery and requested to change it any way. So the battery was changed to a new Amaron Hi Flo and the hot car started on the first crank. No drag on the starter and the like. The technician did further checks on the charging rate and the like and gave an OK. So after the battery swap, the car is running and starting fine (both cold and hot).

I posted this for the benefit of anyone coming across such weird indications. To this day (based on my experience with my Ambassador) I though that a bad battery would only cause problems on a cold start. But this experience with my Maruti proved otherwise.

[IndigoXLGrandDi]

For past 3 months, I am facing the Strange Starting Problem with our Xylo E8 ABS (Nov. 2009) that has run 346201 Kms.

The Car gives Starting Trouble if I try to start it after 5-10 mins of turning off. If I try to start after 30 mins or cold start, the car starts without problem.

If the car gives starting trouble and I Pump the Diesel Pump (till it gets hard i.e. remove air), the car starts.

I have got the battery checked from my Battery Dealer. He told the battery is fine.

So whats the problem?

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

For past 3 months, I am facing the Strange Starting Problem with our Xylo E8 ABS (Nov. 2009) that has run 346201 Kms.
The Car gives Starting Trouble if I try to start it after 5-10 mins of turning off. If I try to start after 30 mins or cold start, the car starts without problem.
If the car gives starting trouble and I Pump the Diesel Pump (till it gets hard i.e. remove air), the car starts.
I have got the battery checked from my Battery Dealer. He told the battery is fine. So whats the problem?

If cold starts are fine - battery sure has no problem. So your battery dealer is right.

I'd suspect the fuel pump & rail plungers/values that push the diesel into injectors. With higher temperature, minor change in viscosity of the fuel, results in slight clogging during fuel pumping. This is caused generally by deposits in the lines and valves over time. Perhaps a fuel / engine flush followed by cleaning treatment (like System-D perhaps) might be able to solve this. I'm no expert of course, but the way its working after higher pressure manual pumping on the diesel pump, I suspect this might be the cause.

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

The Car gives Starting Trouble if I try to start it after 5-10 mins of turning off. If I try to start after 30 mins or cold start, the car starts without problem.

What about starter motor?

I had a similar problem (but that is a petrol engine) where it needs multiple cranking to start once the engine has been run for some time. No issues when cold start. Resolved after starter motor servicing.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by balenoed_

I had a similar problem (but that is a petrol engine) where it needs multiple cranking to start once the engine has been run for some time. No issues when cold start. Resolved after starter motor servicing.

I thought of the motor too. But then that wouldn't get resolved by manual diesel pumping I thought. Its working with manual diesel pump in the OP's case.

[IndigoXLGrandDi]

Dear All,
Update on above mentioned problem of our Xylo.

Now the problem has increased to such extent that only during Cold Starts ("And Immediate Hot Starts") the car starts with one Attempt. If the car is warmed up (run extensively on road) and turned off for more than 5-10 minutes (even if the car remained off for 2-3 hours irrespective of outside temperature, Hot Sun, Rain), I have to pump the primary pump (the Manual Pump) and simultaneously start the car.

2 different people who do the Overhauling of FIP have told that the FIP is Culprit here. One of them advised me against Overhauling of existing FIP and told me to go for 2nd Hand FIP as Overhauling is not worth it.

Both the above people said this problem is not due to worn starter.

I am totally confused. Should I get the Starter Serviced from my known Electrician?

I myself have run the car on 3rd Gear at varying RPMs of 2000-3500. But that did not help.

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

I am totally confused. Should I get the Starter Serviced from my known Electrician?

Yes, please do that.

No harm, even if that turns out to be not the cause of the problem. One thing less to suspect and you have a peace of mind on that for remaining years ahead. For the ODO reading you have, it's a due anyway seems like.

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

The Car gives Starting Trouble if I try to start it after 5-10 mins of turning off. If I try to start after 30 mins or cold start, the car starts without problem.

I have got the battery checked from my Battery Dealer. He told the battery is fine.

So whats the problem?

Originally Posted by Reinhard

If cold starts are fine - battery sure has no problem. So your battery dealer is right.

I'd suspect the fuel pump & rail plungers/values that push the diesel into injectors. With higher temperature, minor change in viscosity of the fuel, results in slight clogging during fuel pumping. This is caused generally by deposits in the lines and valves over time.

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

If the car is warmed up (run extensively on road) and turned off for more than 5-10 minutes (even if the car remained off for 2-3 hours irrespective of outside temperature, Hot Sun, Rain), I have to pump the primary pump (the Manual Pump) and simultaneously start the car.

2 different people who do the Overhauling of FIP have told that the FIP is Culprit here. One of them advised me against Overhauling of existing FIP and told me to go for 2nd Hand FIP as Overhauling is not worth it.

Both the above people said this problem is not due to worn starter.

I am totally confused. Should I get the Starter Serviced from my known Electrician?

I’m no mechanic, but this is my hypothesis - it sounds a lot like your fuel injectors are leaking. The reason it’s starting normally on cold starts is because the engine needs extra fuel to start when it’s cold. However, when the engine is warmed up, it needs the precise quantity of fuel sprayed in and it’s flooding due to the injectors leaking too much diesel.

It doesn’t sound like a starter malfunction.

Get your fuel injectors pressure cleaned first (by a mechanic), and see if that fixes the problem, before you replace any other parts in the fuel delivery system.

The other thing I’d suspect is a faulty fuel pump or a clogged fuel filter, but both those can be easily diagnosed with a simple fuel pressure test.

Have a casual read of the following link and check if you have any of the other symptoms too - https://gemstatediesel.com/5-common-...uel-injectors/

[vigsom]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

our Xylo E8 ABS (Nov. 2009) that has run 346201 Kms

That is a lot of kms on the odo

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

only during Cold Starts ("And Immediate Hot Starts") the car starts with one Attempt. If the car is warmed up (run extensively on road) and turned off for more than 5-10 minutes (even if the car remained off for 2-3 hours irrespective of outside temperature, Hot Sun, Rain), I have to pump the primary pump (the Manual Pump) and simultaneously start the car.

The starter and the battery are absolutely fine if the combo is able to crank the car well irrespective of whether the engine is hot or cold

If the injectors are the problem, then the car would always need many cranks to start.

My recommendation is as follows:

1. Get the car scanned

2. While scanning, read data for fuel rail pressure, and fuel injector quantities for all injectors.

3. Also, you could check for injector return quantity physically by removing the return line hoses and connect individual hoses from each injector return to individual bottles

This will give you an idea if the return quantity is high, and if high, you need to get the injectors overhauled

How is the exhaust? Do you see white exhaust while starting after priming?

How is the oil level? Normal or extremely high?

It is important to diagnose and then attack the issue; 'coz shooting in the dark will only empty your wallet and get no results.

[IndigoXLGrandDi]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the following-
1. The OBD Scanner does not show any errors. I checked at two different mechanics.

2. One of this OBD Scanner mechanic visually checked the Injectors by removing the rubber pipes and cranking the engine and told there is no problem with Injectors. He said FIP is not getting enough fuel when the engine is hot. The strainer inside could be clogged, or may be the plunger might be Culprit.

3. The other Scanner Mechanic told the Starter Armature is not going strong when the engine is hot and not moving the flywheel with required force.

4. There is no smoke from the tail pipe.

5. Fuel Efficiency is good. 16kpl as per DDAS. That translates to 13-14 kpl even if DDAS reading taken wih pinch of salt.

6. Diesel Filter is replaced with new one last week.

7. There is no uneven idling.

8. The starter has been serviced in the past. Don't remember when.

[vigsom]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

He said FIP is not getting enough fuel when the engine is hot. The strainer inside could be clogged, or may be the plunger might be Culprit.

3. The other Scanner Mechanic told the Starter Armature is not going strong

If you feel that the cranking rpm is normal when cold or when hot, then the battery - starter combo is perfectly fine. For reference, please try another newer Xylo.

You could then read system data to see what it shows.

Two sets - when the engine starts normally, and when the engine doesn't start (don't prime here)

I suspect the high pressure pump but don't want to jump to conclusions.

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by vigsom

The starter and the battery are absolutely fine if the combo is able to crank the car well irrespective of whether the engine is hot or cold

Not entirely true. I cannot prove it technically, but I had this exactly same issue with my car, I mean exactly same. I got the starter serviced/repaired and the problem does not exist since then. Here the vehicle type is different but I would recommend servicing the starter once. Like said earlier, there is no harm in doing that as the vehicle is having quite a lot of kms on ODO and that is something due now or sooner and you rule out one variable.

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by IndigoXLGrandDi

Sorry, I forgot to mention the following-
6. Diesel Filter is replaced with new one last
8. The starter has been serviced in the past.

From your above feedback, I’d follow the excellent advice from vigsom below and look at the live data from a good OBD2 scanner and proceed from there. I would also now shift focus to the fuel pump and closely monitor the fuel pressure when you’re having issues starting up the vehicle.

Originally Posted by vigsom

If you feel that the cranking rpm is normal when cold or when hot, then the battery - starter combo is perfectly fine.

You could then read system data to see what it shows.

I suspect the high pressure pump but don't want to jump to conclusions.

Excellent advice.

Originally Posted by balenoed_

I would recommend servicing the starter once. Like said earlier, there is no harm in doing that as the vehicle is having quite a lot of kms on ODO and that is something due now or sooner and you rule out one variable.

He has mentioned above that the starter has already been serviced once before. If it is indeed the starter, it should be an easy diagnosis no?

As vigsom mentioned earlier, it’s important to correctly diagnose the problem first before throwing money at it, otherwise it will get very expensive. It may very well be the starter, but it needs to be proven first.