New Swift Diesel engine problem

tazmaan · 19th March 2009, 10:39

Hello Friends,

I had bought a Swift Vdi in december and have so far done 4300 kms on it. Lately I am facing a unique problem. When ever I enter the new fly over near the airport I have to accelerate hard to match the oncoming traffic speed. What happens is I have to push the car in 1st and 2nd gear all the way upto 3 RPM and then I switch to 3rd gear for a short time and switch to 4th Gear.

In the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear the car behaves normally but when I switch to 4th (Around 70kmph) the car suddenly looses all the power and the RPM drops to around idle mark. Further the car discharges huge amount of white smoke, I have to shift to 2nd gear to get some power with the smoke continuing.

This happened once last week and again happened today at the same location. After this has happened the car behaves normally as if nothing is wrong. I try accelerating , de-accelerating with sudden bursts of speed but no problem.

Can you guys tell me what the problem might be? My 1st service is complete and second one is due in 1000 kms.

I suspect following things:

1. Turbo : I work the turbo in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear hard and when I move to the fourth gear the rpm is below the turbo cut in. Is it possible that the engine is suddenly starved of air inflow resulting in unburned diesel , which further explains the power loss and smoking. If this is the case then Swift DDIS can be a real hazard on hilly driving. Imagine loosing complete power on a ghat section where you are trying to overtake a truck (Boom).

2. Fuel: May be the diesel I filled was bad. But in that case why would the same incident happen at the same patch of road again. I was running on the same tank full on both occasions.

I have one more question isn't white smoke funny on a diesel car?

19th March 2009, 11:15

70kmph in 4th gear is smack in peak torque area. You should not be losing power. You should be at roughly 2400 rpm or even higher at that speed in 4th. 80kmph in 5th is 2000rpm- also peak torque territory.
White smoke is a bad sign. Get it checked.
Did you check the oil level? Its not overfilled is it?

nitrogary · 19th March 2009, 11:31

was it always lke that?
check for leakages in the pipe after the turbo connecting to the intake manifold or aftercooler. this usually happens when there is no boost.

is the smoke completely white or greyish?

dadu · 19th March 2009, 11:42

Since your vehicle is relatively new white smoke means Water in the fuel. If the swift has a fuel sedimenter, drain it first.

tazmaan · 19th March 2009, 12:03

@ Dadu I will check that, I remember pumping out water on my innova will check if Swift has the same facility. The car only smokes for the time when I lose power. Also its Important to note is this happens only during inclination. My diesel tank is half full and when it happened last time my diesel tank was full.

mtnrajdeep · 19th March 2009, 12:51

Unburnt diesel comes out of the exhaust and is visible as black smoke. White smoke usually signifies something about the engine oil. Maybe the oil was overfilled and is getting into the turbo while driving. Please get this checked.

tazmaan · 19th March 2009, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtnrajdeep

Unburnt diesel comes out of the exhaust and is visible as black smoke. White smoke usually signifies something about the engine oil. Maybe the oil was overfilled and is getting into the turbo while driving. Please get this checked.

I just checked the oil level and that seems correct its at the max level but not more than max level. How can engine oil enter the turbo both of them are completely isolated right?

How do I drain the water I cannot find the manual diesel pump?

Jaggu · 19th March 2009, 14:47

Hope the oil level check was done after the car was idle for couple of hours? If not it is on the higher side. And are you sure its white smoke?

White smoke means attention required from MASS, dont delay it for long.

SirAlec · 20th March 2009, 00:05

Ofocurse engine oil is supplied in TC in presurised form for lubrication, but it entering the impeller side is not possible.

You should not use 4th for climbing anything even if it can.

White smoke is visible while climbing or just also when revving hard on idle.?

tazmaan · 20th March 2009, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirAlec

Ofocurse engine oil is supplied in TC in presurised form for lubrication, but it entering the impeller side is not possible.

You should not use 4th for climbing anything even if it can.

White smoke is visible while climbing or just also when revving hard on idle.?

Ok I will try not doing it in 4th. The white smoke was emitted only on these two occasions while climbing the same flyover. The car is performing well otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Hope the oil level check was done after the car was idle for couple of hours? If not it is on the higher side. And are you sure its white smoke?

White smoke means attention required from MASS, dont delay it for long.

Oil level was checked after 1 hr of cooling. I will redo a cold test tomorrow.

One more thing the average given this time by the car is 11 against 13 I normally get. I am strongly suspecting the diesel quality one more thing to note is that I had changed from premium diesel to normal diesel last tank fill.

Psycho · 20th March 2009, 11:28

You seem to be running excessive oil in your engine.

Eddy · 20th March 2009, 11:30

An average of 11 & 13 ? That seems to be on the lower side as well for a VDi.

UniqueMods · 20th March 2009, 11:48

Black smoke is the most common emitted from diesel engines and indicates incomplete combustion of the fuel. Black smoke causes can vary widely and include ..

* Incorrect fuel injection timing
* Dirty or worn fuel injectors
* Over fuelling
* Faulty turbocharger, or turbo lag
* Faulty or dirty exhaust gas recycling (EGR) system
* Incorrect valve clearance
* Incorrect fuel to air ratio
* Dirty or restricted air cleaner systems
* Over loading the engine
* Poor fuel quality
* Cool operating temperatures
* High altitude operation
* Excessive carbon build-up in combustion and exhaust spaces

Black smoke can occur across the entire operating range, but is usually worst under full power, or during the lag before the turbocharger boosts air supply to match the fuel usage such as in the early stages of acceleration and during gear changes. Moderate turbo lag smoke is acceptable, otherwise black smoke should be hardly visible in a correctly running engine.

Blue smoke is caused by engine lubricating oil burning. The oil can enter the combustion chamber from several sources including ..

* Worn valve guides, or seals
* Cylinder &/or piston ring wear
* Cylinder glaze
* Piston ring sticking
* Incorrect grade of oil .. too thin and getting past rings, or valves guides
* Fuel dilution of the oil, making it too thin.

Blue smoke is often evident at cold start, which can reflect reduced oil control due to carbon fouling deposits around the piston rings and/or cylinder glaze. Blue smoke should not be evident at any stage.

An engine may burn oil without the evidence of blue smoke, because good compression burns oil quite cleanly, however, it is not acceptable for any new engine, or engine in good internal condition to burn large amounts of lubricating oil.

White smoke is caused by raw, unburnt fuel passing into the exhaust stream. Common causes include ..

* Incorrect fuel injection timing
* Defective fuel injectors
* Low cylinder compression

Low cylinder compression may be caused by leaking valves, sticking piston rings, ring wear, cylinder wear, or cylinder glaze.

When white smoke occurs at cold start and then disappears as the engine warms up, the most common causes are fouling deposits around piston rings and/or cylinder glazing.

Continuous evidence of white smoke indicates a mechanical defect, or incorrect fuel timing.

Colour of engine smoke and when it occurs tells about internal condition

tazmaan · 20th March 2009, 12:18

I guess I will give to car to MASS and get the third service done as well by next week. I will let them know about the problem. The oil will be changed as well and I will make sure its done correctly (I has changed the oil on my first service as well along with oil filter).

Till then I will run the car on new tankful and see if the problem persists.

Any other suggestions on how I can get the problem resolved at MASS.

GSMINC · 20th March 2009, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazmaan

I guess I will give to car to MASS and get the third service done as well by next week. I will let them know about the problem. The oil will be changed as well and I will make sure its done correctly (I has changed the oil on my first service as well along with oil filter).

Till then I will run the car on new tankful and see if the problem persists.

Any other suggestions on how I can get the problem resolved at MASS.

Ensure that all your complaints are recorded in the jobcard, to avoid future headaches

19th March 2009, 10:39	#1
tazmaan BHPian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 929 Thanked: 3,418 Times View My Garage	New Swift Diesel engine problem Hello Friends, I had bought a Swift Vdi in december and have so far done 4300 kms on it. Lately I am facing a unique problem. When ever I enter the new fly over near the airport I have to accelerate hard to match the oncoming traffic speed. What happens is I have to push the car in 1st and 2nd gear all the way upto 3 RPM and then I switch to 3rd gear for a short time and switch to 4th Gear. In the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear the car behaves normally but when I switch to 4th (Around 70kmph) the car suddenly looses all the power and the RPM drops to around idle mark. Further the car discharges huge amount of white smoke, I have to shift to 2nd gear to get some power with the smoke continuing. This happened once last week and again happened today at the same location. After this has happened the car behaves normally as if nothing is wrong. I try accelerating , de-accelerating with sudden bursts of speed but no problem. Can you guys tell me what the problem might be? My 1st service is complete and second one is due in 1000 kms. I suspect following things: 1. Turbo : I work the turbo in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear hard and when I move to the fourth gear the rpm is below the turbo cut in. Is it possible that the engine is suddenly starved of air inflow resulting in unburned diesel , which further explains the power loss and smoking. If this is the case then Swift DDIS can be a real hazard on hilly driving. Imagine loosing complete power on a ghat section where you are trying to overtake a truck (Boom). 2. Fuel: May be the diesel I filled was bad. But in that case why would the same incident happen at the same patch of road again. I was running on the same tank full on both occasions. I have one more question isn't white smoke funny on a diesel car?
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 11:15	#2
rippergeo Posts: n/a	70kmph in 4th gear is smack in peak torque area. You should not be losing power. You should be at roughly 2400 rpm or even higher at that speed in 4th. 80kmph in 5th is 2000rpm- also peak torque territory. White smoke is a bad sign. Get it checked. Did you check the oil level? Its not overfilled is it?
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 11:31	#3
nitrogary BHPian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 260 Thanked: 1,209 Times	was it always lke that? check for leakages in the pipe after the turbo connecting to the intake manifold or aftercooler. this usually happens when there is no boost. is the smoke completely white or greyish?
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 11:42	#4
dadu Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 3,803 Thanked: 463 Times View My Garage	Since your vehicle is relatively new white smoke means Water in the fuel. If the swift has a fuel sedimenter, drain it first.
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 12:03	#5
tazmaan BHPian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 929 Thanked: 3,418 Times View My Garage	@ Dadu I will check that, I remember pumping out water on my innova will check if Swift has the same facility. The car only smokes for the time when I lose power. Also its Important to note is this happens only during inclination. My diesel tank is half full and when it happened last time my diesel tank was full.
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 12:51	#6
mtnrajdeep BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 930 Thanked: 366 Times View My Garage	Unburnt diesel comes out of the exhaust and is visible as black smoke. White smoke usually signifies something about the engine oil. Maybe the oil was overfilled and is getting into the turbo while driving. Please get this checked.
	() Thanks

19th March 2009, 14:47	#8
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,338 Thanked: 16,718 Times	Hope the oil level check was done after the car was idle for couple of hours? If not it is on the higher side. And are you sure its white smoke? White smoke means attention required from MASS, dont delay it for long.
	() Thanks

20th March 2009, 00:05	#9
SirAlec Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: zxc Posts: 3,395 Thanked: 727 Times	Ofocurse engine oil is supplied in TC in presurised form for lubrication, but it entering the impeller side is not possible. You should not use 4th for climbing anything even if it can. White smoke is visible while climbing or just also when revving hard on idle.?
	() Thanks

20th March 2009, 11:28	#11
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 111 Times View My Garage	You seem to be running excessive oil in your engine.
	() Thanks

20th March 2009, 11:30	#12
Eddy Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 9,464 Thanked: 13,811 Times	An average of 11 & 13 ? That seems to be on the lower side as well for a VDi.
	() Thanks

20th March 2009, 11:48	#13
UniqueMods BHPian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 308 Thanked: 50 Times View My Garage	Black smoke is the most common emitted from diesel engines and indicates incomplete combustion of the fuel. Black smoke causes can vary widely and include .. * Incorrect fuel injection timing * Dirty or worn fuel injectors * Over fuelling * Faulty turbocharger, or turbo lag * Faulty or dirty exhaust gas recycling (EGR) system * Incorrect valve clearance * Incorrect fuel to air ratio * Dirty or restricted air cleaner systems * Over loading the engine * Poor fuel quality * Cool operating temperatures * High altitude operation * Excessive carbon build-up in combustion and exhaust spaces Black smoke can occur across the entire operating range, but is usually worst under full power, or during the lag before the turbocharger boosts air supply to match the fuel usage such as in the early stages of acceleration and during gear changes. Moderate turbo lag smoke is acceptable, otherwise black smoke should be hardly visible in a correctly running engine. Blue smoke is caused by engine lubricating oil burning. The oil can enter the combustion chamber from several sources including .. * Worn valve guides, or seals * Cylinder &/or piston ring wear * Cylinder glaze * Piston ring sticking * Incorrect grade of oil .. too thin and getting past rings, or valves guides * Fuel dilution of the oil, making it too thin. Blue smoke is often evident at cold start, which can reflect reduced oil control due to carbon fouling deposits around the piston rings and/or cylinder glaze. Blue smoke should not be evident at any stage. An engine may burn oil without the evidence of blue smoke, because good compression burns oil quite cleanly, however, it is not acceptable for any new engine, or engine in good internal condition to burn large amounts of lubricating oil. White smoke is caused by raw, unburnt fuel passing into the exhaust stream. Common causes include .. * Incorrect fuel injection timing * Defective fuel injectors * Low cylinder compression Low cylinder compression may be caused by leaking valves, sticking piston rings, ring wear, cylinder wear, or cylinder glaze. When white smoke occurs at cold start and then disappears as the engine warms up, the most common causes are fouling deposits around piston rings and/or cylinder glazing. Continuous evidence of white smoke indicates a mechanical defect, or incorrect fuel timing. Colour of engine smoke and when it occurs tells about internal condition
	() Thanks

20th March 2009, 12:18	#14
tazmaan BHPian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 929 Thanked: 3,418 Times View My Garage	I guess I will give to car to MASS and get the third service done as well by next week. I will let them know about the problem. The oil will be changed as well and I will make sure its done correctly (I has changed the oil on my first service as well along with oil filter). Till then I will run the car on new tankful and see if the problem persists. Any other suggestions on how I can get the problem resolved at MASS.
	() Thanks