Camless Engine

highwayblaze · 3rd April 2005, 12:56

hey guys, have you heard of the camless IC engine??
There's a company in the UK thats developing one of these. Each of the valves will be individually controlled digitally which means precision control of valves, better performance and better fuel efficiency for that performance.
check this link
http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/cmc/cmc100.html
chill pill
bhupi

Steeroid · 3rd April 2005, 13:09

Interesting, but we're now getting to a situation where the engine wouldnt even be able to lift its own valves without electric power.

I yearn for the days when we could crank-start cars that would then develop the required power from the delco...run without batteries. I suppose it sounds pretty old fashioned, but wasnt it more energy-efficient to produce the power required to run the car from the mechanical movement of the engine itself, rather than having to move the engine with external power? Take the battery off a car now and you wont be able to move it an inch...

My dads old President could be crank started and would keep running without the battery...and it used to return 15 kmpl too. Todays cars with their On Board Computers, chip controlled MPFI, ignition maps, sensors, so many valves per cylinder return less than that, PROVIDED you use Premium Unleaded Fuel with Additives, Super Synthetic Motor Oil, the right Engine Coolant etc...

And we call this progress.........

Cheers

Steer

topend_hooligan · 3rd April 2005, 13:38

Umm, Dont know about camless system or hydruallic valve operation. I think the problems faced by a cam driven traditional valvtrain has to be the presence of valve springs which kinda make the valve float at extremely high speed valve operation, and also the precious crankshaft torque is sapped by compression of valve springs. what about Desmodromic valve actuation? I think its the best alternative, look at the ducatis, they are mighty powerful and have flat torque curves.

Steeroid · 3rd April 2005, 14:08

I'm not much of a techie when it comes to engine technology, but I've always wondered why the Wankel (rotary) engine never made it big. It seems like Mazda were the only ones who took it seriously....

iceman91 · 3rd April 2005, 22:12

well the camless engines have been under R&D for quite some time...need to see how things devlop.

steer,
the rotary engine was considered to be an outcast earlier....since it was "different" and thus not seen in many cars....Mazda were the guys who made it big with these...and they are happy...

Steeroid · 3rd April 2005, 22:59

This is interesting - I have always been fascinated by what little I've read up on the Wankel engines. The idea seemed so brilliantly simple.

Does anybody here have detailed mechanical knowledge of that engine? At least the theoretical stuff. From what I heard, the engine wasnt cheap to produce, probably because of the limited production and the levels of metallurgy required on account of the high RPMs produced by those engines.

I've also heard that the Japs bought the patent to the engine off the Germans - wonder if that refers to Mazda.

Always wanted to check one out. Perhaps I'll rummage around with the scrap dealers - they have all sorts of engines available at scrap prices...

Any information would be welcome. You might want to move this discussion to another thread too.

topend_hooligan · 3rd April 2005, 23:26

I've been fascinated by the rotary engine too, very simple design with no valves!! And 3 powerstrokes per revolution! Now imagine the twin rotor setup like on the rx7.

Steeroid · 4th April 2005, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by topend_hooligan

I've been fascinated by the rotary engine too, very simple design with no valves!! And 3 powerstrokes per revolution! Now imagine the twin rotor setup like on the rx7.

Yeah fascinating, since you'll then have to change your avtar, top end...

iceman91 · 4th April 2005, 10:09

haha ..yeah top end would love to see a wankel internal.....you can get more info abt the wankel engine from this site...
http://www.monito.com/wankel/rce.html

Rtech · 4th April 2005, 10:42

To get back on the camless engine topic. F1 cars have been operating their valves pneumatically for years now. So its not a question of will it work, more like when will it make its way into the mass market.

Even on a regular production mid price sedan, I'm sure it would be cheaper in the long run to have valves operated electrically rather than mechanically. Less moving parts, cooler engine temperatures, lower production costs. Even maintanence costs would reduce as if you have a problem, simply replace the sensors/ actuators! Maybe a half hour job!

However, reliability is the key. Also, the next great hurdle to get over is our initial apprhension to this new electrical gizmo. But, as with most advancements, it will soon find its place.

Harrie · 4th April 2005, 11:59

We tried this out in our college. We were not very serious about it though. We used electro-pneumatics for this because they had a higher response time than hydraulics or plain pneumatics.

But later we found that this setup we had could only do about 1000 RPM! that is after 1000 rpm the cylinders actuating the cam will not be able to respond to the signal.

We tried fitting this on a agricultural diesel engine which does about 800 rpm but we were not sucessful because what equipments (cylinders and actuators) we had at our disposal was very small and could not operate the valve on the diesel engine.

Wonder how the F1 boffins do that. No wonder they have such a huge funding!

topend_hooligan · 5th April 2005, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Yeah fascinating, since you'll then have to change your avtar, top end...

lol, I couldnt find a good one on google, so this one stays.

SAHIR.KITTUR · 5th April 2009, 15:40

Dear freinds,
During my early days in automative feild, I would come accross the kind of related people who would boast of their knowledge about automobiles.
My question to all such people was " Bigar piston ka engine dekha hai ? "
everybody would laugh & think that i was joking with them.
The Truth is as short discription below.

German engineer Felix Wankel invented the " Wankel engine ".( 1950 ) its a type of IC engine which uses a rotary design to convert pressure into rotating motion instead of using reciprocating pistons. its a four stroke engine.

Inrested readers will find all the relevant information on the web, search for " Wankel engine "

Mods, I searched the forum, but did not find any posts on this topic. hence i posted it. Please move it to correct forum if applicable.

Thankyou.

VeeTee · 6th April 2009, 16:29

FIAT has also developed hydraulically actuated valves and calling it as important as the common rail technology on diesels.

Fiat releases MultiAir engine technology – is this a fundamental breakthrough in internal combustion engine design?

This talks about the details. FIAT is calling it "Multi Air" technology. I don't think it is as revolutionary as common rail on diesel. Other OEMs too have variable valve timing.

3rd April 2005, 12:56	#1
highwayblaze BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago/Mumbai/Pune Posts: 771 Thanked: 2 Times View My Garage	Camless Engine hey guys, have you heard of the camless IC engine?? There's a company in the UK thats developing one of these. Each of the valves will be individually controlled digitally which means precision control of valves, better performance and better fuel efficiency for that performance. check this link http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/cmc/cmc100.html chill pill bhupi
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 13:09	#2
Steeroid Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: N.A Posts: 7,046 Thanked: 2,752 Times	Interesting, but we're now getting to a situation where the engine wouldnt even be able to lift its own valves without electric power. I yearn for the days when we could crank-start cars that would then develop the required power from the delco...run without batteries. I suppose it sounds pretty old fashioned, but wasnt it more energy-efficient to produce the power required to run the car from the mechanical movement of the engine itself, rather than having to move the engine with external power? Take the battery off a car now and you wont be able to move it an inch... My dads old President could be crank started and would keep running without the battery...and it used to return 15 kmpl too. Todays cars with their On Board Computers, chip controlled MPFI, ignition maps, sensors, so many valves per cylinder return less than that, PROVIDED you use Premium Unleaded Fuel with Additives, Super Synthetic Motor Oil, the right Engine Coolant etc... And we call this progress......... Cheers Steer
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 13:38	#3
topend_hooligan BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Thane Posts: 65 Thanked: 2 Times	Umm, Dont know about camless system or hydruallic valve operation. I think the problems faced by a cam driven traditional valvtrain has to be the presence of valve springs which kinda make the valve float at extremely high speed valve operation, and also the precious crankshaft torque is sapped by compression of valve springs. what about Desmodromic valve actuation? I think its the best alternative, look at the ducatis, they are mighty powerful and have flat torque curves.
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 14:08	#4
Steeroid Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: N.A Posts: 7,046 Thanked: 2,752 Times	I'm not much of a techie when it comes to engine technology, but I've always wondered why the Wankel (rotary) engine never made it big. It seems like Mazda were the only ones who took it seriously....
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 22:12	#5
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 35 Times View My Garage	well the camless engines have been under R&D for quite some time...need to see how things devlop. steer, the rotary engine was considered to be an outcast earlier....since it was "different" and thus not seen in many cars....Mazda were the guys who made it big with these...and they are happy...
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 22:59	#6
Steeroid Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: N.A Posts: 7,046 Thanked: 2,752 Times	This is interesting - I have always been fascinated by what little I've read up on the Wankel engines. The idea seemed so brilliantly simple. Does anybody here have detailed mechanical knowledge of that engine? At least the theoretical stuff. From what I heard, the engine wasnt cheap to produce, probably because of the limited production and the levels of metallurgy required on account of the high RPMs produced by those engines. I've also heard that the Japs bought the patent to the engine off the Germans - wonder if that refers to Mazda. Always wanted to check one out. Perhaps I'll rummage around with the scrap dealers - they have all sorts of engines available at scrap prices... Any information would be welcome. You might want to move this discussion to another thread too.
	() Thanks

3rd April 2005, 23:26	#7
topend_hooligan BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Thane Posts: 65 Thanked: 2 Times	I've been fascinated by the rotary engine too, very simple design with no valves!! And 3 powerstrokes per revolution! Now imagine the twin rotor setup like on the rx7.
	() Thanks

4th April 2005, 10:09	#9
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 35 Times View My Garage	haha ..yeah top end would love to see a wankel internal.....you can get more info abt the wankel engine from this site... http://www.monito.com/wankel/rce.html
	() Thanks

4th April 2005, 10:42	#10
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 365 Times View My Garage	To get back on the camless engine topic. F1 cars have been operating their valves pneumatically for years now. So its not a question of will it work, more like when will it make its way into the mass market. Even on a regular production mid price sedan, I'm sure it would be cheaper in the long run to have valves operated electrically rather than mechanically. Less moving parts, cooler engine temperatures, lower production costs. Even maintanence costs would reduce as if you have a problem, simply replace the sensors/ actuators! Maybe a half hour job! However, reliability is the key. Also, the next great hurdle to get over is our initial apprhension to this new electrical gizmo. But, as with most advancements, it will soon find its place.
	() Thanks

4th April 2005, 11:59	#11
Harrie BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KA 03, KL 12, TN 38 Posts: 701 Thanked: 36 Times View My Garage	We tried this out in our college. We were not very serious about it though. We used electro-pneumatics for this because they had a higher response time than hydraulics or plain pneumatics. But later we found that this setup we had could only do about 1000 RPM! that is after 1000 rpm the cylinders actuating the cam will not be able to respond to the signal. We tried fitting this on a agricultural diesel engine which does about 800 rpm but we were not sucessful because what equipments (cylinders and actuators) we had at our disposal was very small and could not operate the valve on the diesel engine. Wonder how the F1 boffins do that. No wonder they have such a huge funding!
	() Thanks

5th April 2009, 15:40	#13
SAHIR.KITTUR BHPian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Belgaum / Doha Posts: 300 Thanked: 117 Times View My Garage	Bigar Piston Ka Engine ( Engine Without A Piston ) Dear freinds, During my early days in automative feild, I would come accross the kind of related people who would boast of their knowledge about automobiles. My question to all such people was " Bigar piston ka engine dekha hai ? " everybody would laugh & think that i was joking with them. The Truth is as short discription below. German engineer Felix Wankel invented the " Wankel engine ".( 1950 ) its a type of IC engine which uses a rotary design to convert pressure into rotating motion instead of using reciprocating pistons. its a four stroke engine. Inrested readers will find all the relevant information on the web, search for " Wankel engine " Mods, I searched the forum, but did not find any posts on this topic. hence i posted it. Please move it to correct forum if applicable. Thankyou. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images
	() Thanks

6th April 2009, 16:29	#14
VeeTee BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chennai Posts: 44 Thanked: 18 Times	FIAT has also developed hydraulically actuated valves and calling it as important as the common rail technology on diesels. Fiat releases MultiAir engine technology – is this a fundamental breakthrough in internal combustion engine design? This talks about the details. FIAT is calling it "Multi Air" technology. I don't think it is as revolutionary as common rail on diesel. Other OEMs too have variable valve timing.
	() Thanks