[armaaan.in]

Hello fellow car enthusiasts,

I hope this message finds you all well. I'm reaching out to this knowledgeable community today with a heavy heart, as I've encountered some extremely frustrating issues with my beloved Maruti Ciaz 1.3 diesel. Despite spending over 50,000 rupees on a comprehensive service at Nikunj Motors in Gwalior, my problems have only increased, and I desperately need your insights and advice.

Here's a bit of background:

My Ciaz has been my reliable companion for quite some time, having clocked over 133,000 kilometers. Around the 131,000-kilometer mark, I decided it was time for a major service, and I entrusted my car to Nikunj Motors, the authorized service station. The service included a comprehensive set of tasks: clutch set replacement (excluding the flywheel), timing kit replacement, EGR cleaning, and the standard oil change service. I opted for this extensive service primarily because my car's mileage had been on the decline, and the clutch was showing signs of wear.

Previously, my Ciaz used to deliver impressive mileage figures, with 20-22 kmpl on the highway and a solid 17-18 kmpl in the city. However, this had decreased over time, and I believed that a service would help restore it. Nikunj Motors assured me that my car's current mileage figures (14-15 kmpl in the city and 17-18 kmpl on the highway) were acceptable. Still, I couldn't help but feel that something was amiss compared to what it used to be.

Now, here's where things get truly disheartening:

After getting my car back from Nikunj Motors, I've started experiencing not one but two concerning issues:

Juddering in 1st Gear: Whenever I release the clutch in 1st gear, my car experiences a disconcerting juddering sensation. This sensation occurs specifically in 1st gear, right when the clutch begins to engage. It doesn't persist in any other gears, and intriguingly, it disappears as soon as the speedometer hits 3-4 kilometers per hour. Nikunj Motors claims that this juddering is due to the new clutch and will diminish as the clutch ages. However, even after driving around 2,000-2,500 kilometers, the improvement has been marginal at best. It's important to note that this issue was not present before the clutch replacement.

Increased Vibrations: I've also noticed a slight increase in vibrations after the service. These vibrations were not an issue before, and their appearance post-service has left me puzzled.

Furthermore, I'd like to emphasize that there has been no improvement in my car's mileage despite the extensive service. This is particularly frustrating given the significant investment I made in the service.

As someone who is passionate about their car, I'm eager to address these issues and restore my Ciaz to its optimal performance. I've made multiple visits to Nikunj Motors, but their explanations have left me somewhat uncertain.

I've invested a substantial amount of money, over 50,000 rupees, hoping to improve my car's condition, but instead, my problems have multiplied.

Any insights or advice you can provide would be immensely appreciated. I'm truly at a loss and need your expertise to navigate this frustrating situation.

Thank you all for your time and expertise, and I look forward to your valuable input.

Best regards,

armaaan.in

[TheCamShaft]

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

Juddering in 1st Gear: Whenever I release the clutch in 1st gear, my car experiences a disconcerting juddering sensation. This sensation occurs specifically in 1st gear, right when the clutch begins to engage.

Take the car to a good mechanic in your city outside this incompetent service centre. Given the symptom is happening for one of the gears only, my suspicion is that the issue related to synchronizer ring for that gear. It may not be clutch related issue after-all as clutch operation is same for all gears. However, this doesn't sound a difficult problem for a good mechanic to root cause and fix.

[armaaan.in]

Originally Posted by TheCamShaft

Given the symptom is happening for one of the gears only, my suspicion is that the issue related to synchronizer ring for that gear.

The described issue occurs in reverse gear as well ever so slightly only till 3-4kmph, but it does not manifest in 2nd gear. Do you think it is related to synchronizer ring only?

[GTE]

They should have skimmed the flywheel or replaced it.

[Kumaran93R]

Shuddering usually means inconsistent contact between the flywheel and the clutch plate. Did they change the flywheel? If not, it'll continue to happen.

Mileage seems to be normal though. Check if fuel filter and air filter is new and clean the injectors. Also check the fuel tank cap.

[TheCamShaft]

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

The described issue occurs in reverse gear as well ever so slightly only till 3-4kmph, but it does not manifest in 2nd gear. Do you think it is related to synchronizer ring only?

I strongly suspect this possibility for the reasons i mentioned earlier (issue happening only in specific gears). That said , it could be the flywheel issue too as other BHPians have commented here. In Bangalore, I've personally seen FNGs changing flywheels, Clutches for Maruti cars at ease with no issues. A good mechanic will be able to solve your problem, do not worry. This is an addressable problem

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

Increased Vibrations: I've also noticed a slight increase in vibrations after the service. These vibrations were not an issue before, and their appearance post-service has left me puzzled.

For changing the clutch set, the gear box (and shaft) has to be removed as well. Just ensure they have mounted all positions correctly as if mounting is not completed correctly (or is not tightened well) it can lead to vibrations. Again show it to a good mechanic, he can double check that too. Wish you have these issues resolved quickly!

[armaaan.in]

Originally Posted by GTE

They should have skimmed the flywheel or replaced it.

I had the same thought, but the possibility was dismissed because they confirmed the flywheel was in good condition when they replaced the clutch. However, I plan to have it checked by another ASC or a FNG for a second opinion.

Originally Posted by Kumaran93R

Mileage seems to be normal though. Check if fuel filter and air filter is new and clean the injectors. Also check the fuel tank cap.

You're welcome! I'll make sure to have all the items you mentioned thoroughly inspected.

Originally Posted by TheCamShaft

For changing the clutch set, the gear box (and shaft) has to be removed as well. Just ensure they have mounted all positions correctly as if mounting is not completed correctly (or is not tightened well) it can lead to vibrations. Again show it to a good mechanic, he can double check that too. Wish you have these issues resolved quickly!

Certainly, checking the mountings is a good idea. I'll have them retorqued to ensure everything is secure.

[scorpian]

The juddering will not go unless the flywheel is changed!
Flywheel has to be skimmed or changed for this problem to be eradicated.
Your clutch plates are new and flywheel is old which has developed uneven wear as the old clutch plates had wear.
Now the new plates are not matching hundred percent to the old flywheel.
Hence the judder.
I have had similar issues in my sx4 and was solved after replacing both the clutch plates and flywheel to brand new.

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

I had the same thought, but the possibility was dismissed because they confirmed the flywheel was in good condition when they replaced the clutch. However, I plan to have it checked by another...

I do not think there is any issue with the synchronizer, if it was you would have faced this issue while downshifting from 2nd to 1st also.
As there is vibration in reverse gear also, following can be the culprits:-

1) Flywheel - skimming required, check for hotspots which have formed, unevenness of the surface etc.
2) Faulty clutch assembly (new clutch plate can also be faulty) - Loose springs cause vibration at gear lever under load while running. But in your case its judderning which happens only when clutch contacts flywheel. Replace your clutch again with any old clutch and check if the vibration is gone.
3) Worn out splines on the clutch shaft.
4) Misaligned clutch assembly.
5) Check for damaged, worn out Crankshaft damper pulley (on front side of the engine). This can lead to vibations.
6) Faulty dual mass flywheel
7) Engine tuning - If juddering occurs at low engine rpms and also mostly in top gears. There is a chance the engine is not producing enough torque at low rpms and hence the judder.
8) Water, grease,oil entry in the clutch housing.
9) Engine mounts
10) Does the judder reduce if you slowly engage the clutch?

[asit.kulkarni93]

Firstly, Confirm with the SVC if the supplier of the clutch kit that was present on your car and the replacement clutch kit's supplier are the same. In certain diesel marutis, if the supplier(irrespective of MGP) are changed then this juddering issue starts. Please replace the flywheel for your peace of mind and at the same time, Please check for all three engine and gearbox mounts.

[KK_HakunaMatata]

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

Juddering in 1st Gear: Whenever I release the clutch in 1st gear, my car experiences a disconcerting juddering sensation. This sensation occurs specifically in 1st gear, right when the clutch begins to engage. It doesn't persist in any other gears, and intriguingly, it disappears as soon as the speedometer hits 3-4 kilometers per hour. Nikunj Motors claims that this juddering is due to the new clutch and will diminish as the clutch ages. However, even after driving around 2,000-2,500 kilometers, the improvement has been marginal at best. It's important to note that this issue was not present before the clutch replacement.

Increased Vibrations: I've also noticed a slight increase in vibrations after the service. These vibrations were not an issue before, and their appearance post-service has left me puzzled.

Could also be issue with the engine mount, if the engine mount is on its way out you will have vibrations in the first gear.

KK

[sagarpadaki]

Most likely a mis aligned clutch<-> Flywheel mating. Ask the service center to loosen the clutch plate bolts and torque when back to spec in a star or criss cross pattern

[srini1785]

I'm no big car mech. Nowadays there are a lot of sensors which monitor the car's parameters. Speed, Gear position, engine rpm, fuel air mixture and what not. Gone are the days when a car was a simple mechanical contraption and electrical systems were limited in their presence.

Faulty sensor inputs could trigger some symptoms which can easily be construed as mechanical failure. So ask your FNG/ASS to check the sensors too.

[armaaan.in]

Originally Posted by scorpian

The juddering will not go unless the flywheel is changed!
Flywheel has to be skimmed or changed for this problem to be eradicated.

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

As there is vibration in reverse gear also, following can be the culprits:-

1) Flywheel - skimming required, check for hotspots which have formed, unevenness of the surface etc.
6) Faulty dual mass flywheel
9) Engine mounts
10) Does the judder reduce if you slowly engage the clutch?

Originally Posted by KK_HakunaMatata

Could also be issue with the engine mount, if the engine mount is on its way out you will have vibrations in the first gear.

KK

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Most likely a mis aligned clutch<-> Flywheel mating. Ask the service center to loosen the clutch plate bolts and torque when back to spec in a star or criss cross pattern

The flywheel is the most likely culprit in this situation. Today, I had all my engine and transmission mounts checked at a FNG, and they were found to be in good condition. However, the mechanic did not inspect the flywheel because they didn't have a spare one available. Interestingly, the mechanic also suggested that the issue could be related to the flywheel, which aligns with what you mentioned. The problem I'm experiencing only occurs in 1st and reverse gear, particularly when I release the clutch slowly, such as in stop-and-go traffic. It doesn't happen when I shift into 2nd gear or lightly press the accelerator in 1st gear. This suggests a potential mismatch between the new clutch and the older flywheel as the root cause.

Originally Posted by asit.kulkarni93

Firstly, Confirm with the SVC if the supplier of the clutch kit that was present on your car and the replacement clutch kit's supplier are the same. In certain diesel marutis, if the supplier(irrespective of MGP) are changed then this juddering issue starts. Please replace the flywheel for your peace of mind and at the same time, Please check for all three engine and gearbox mounts.

It's possible that the garage may not have information about the original supplier of the clutch plates, especially if they've already disposed of the old set. So, It can be challenging to determine the source of the clutch plates.

Originally Posted by srini1785

.
Faulty sensor inputs could trigger some symptoms which can easily be construed as mechanical failure. So ask your FNG/ASS to check the sensors too.

The absence of warning lights in the instrument cluster and the absence of detected errors when connecting a laptop to the OBD port suggest that there may not be any sensor-related issues causing the problem. It's likely that the issue is mechanical or related to the clutch and flywheel as discussed earlier.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by armaaan.in

Nikunj Motors claims that this juddering is due to the new clutch and will diminish as the clutch ages. However, even after driving around 2,000-2,500 kilometers, the improvement has been marginal at best. It's important to note that this issue was not present before the clutch replacement.

Increased Vibrations: I've also noticed a slight increase in vibrations after the service. These vibrations were not an issue before, and their appearance post-service has left me puzzled.

Sorry to hear about your problems.

Let’s make one thing abundantly clear. When a service is carried out using the appropriate tools, procedures by a competent mechanic the car should not vibrate, shudder or anything like that. The mere suggestion that it will improve over time is ridiculous. Seriously, these guys are taking you for a ride.

Something has gone wrong and they need to fix it. A new clutch should not present you with these problems.

There are two things that pop-up on our threads all the time. Replacing ECUs and skimming flywheel. I can honestly say I have never done either. Now I would be the last one to extrapolate my experience to being the norm, but check the international car forums and you won’t found many ECU replacements or fly wheels skimming. I must have replaced a couple of dozen clutches on just as many cars in the last couple of decades and have never encountered the need to skim the flywheel.

Your mechanic did not see the need to do so. Statistically he is likely to be correct I would say, but I hope he actually took measurements and based on measurements and a visual inspection he decided it was not required. I think most of us would agree that if it was necessary, only by a very small margin he would have done so, as it would make the repair more costly.

There might be something with the flywheel. There is nothing wrong with your synchronisation rings. Very unlikely they will cause this problem. The synchromesh rings have no function in the actual operation of the clutch and the clutch engaging/releasing from the flywheel.

My money would be on an alignment issue and or mounting issue of the clutch and or gear box. When you remove the gearbox of a car that has done some good mileage, you need to take particular care in ensuring all the engine mounts and gearbox mounts are still good. Which to be very honest, at the mileage your car has done is unlikely. The problem is that you will never ever be able to get them to mount in the exact position as before. Over time they have become worn, sagged a bit and so on. So really you need to replace them.

Similar to your drive shaft and or cv joints where applicable. On some cars these can give similar problems and they should always be marked so when reinstalling they are mounted in the identical orientation as before.

As you mention increased vibrations the above really need to be checked.

The other thing is the alignment of the clutch itself. Sometimes, even with proper due and care, you might not get in it the perfect position. The older the car, the more mileage the more room for error.

This juddering will not get better by themselves. Neither will the vibration. The gearbox needs to be removed and a proper investigation into the root cause.

Don’t take this nonsense about “it will get better over time”. They made a mistake, and need to fix it.

Good luck

Jeroen