[RDS]

"India’s next milestone in the ethanol blending program is achieving 27% blending beyond E20 fuel." - Article on Livemint!

There is a saying in Punjabi - "Agga Daud te Pichha Chaud."

Meaning - "Running fast forward and not caring for the behind!"
Summary - The faster you try to do anything, the more likely it is that you make mistakes. What is done in a hurry, is often done casually and has to be again done. In the greed to make more progress, we end up piling work upon work."

I am looking for my next vehicle and zeroed down on a Used 2021 Ford Ecosport AT as I like ford cars a lot.
However, upcoming E20 norms challenged my decision and hence, I decided to wait for XUV300/Tata Curvv launches.

Searching more about E20, here is what I found - "Hindustan Petroleum Corp Ltd (HPCL) on Friday launched a pilot study on vehicles using E27 fuel and Ethanol Blended Diesel Fuel, making it the first Oil Marketing Company in India to undertake such a comprehensive research program, the ministry of petroleum & natural gas said in a statement."

So there, here we are thinking how to deal with E20, and E27 research has already started!
Looking at how E20 implementation is getting done with utter disregard for consumers who have paid billions in taxes for their vehicles, I won't be surprised if tomorrow E27 gets launched the same way.

Let us be very clear about this - no matter how many additives and stabilizers are added and no matter how many praise songs of Ethanol are sung, it will hurt the engines and other car components in short or long run.

Now, that I am done with the rant, coming to the next part in article, it says - “The roadmap, designed to usher in a greener and more sustainable future, outlines a phased rollout plan for achieving 20% Ethanol Blended Gasoline (E20) by April 2023 and ensuring its widespread availability by April 2025. It further emphasizes the introduction of E20 material-compliant and E10 engine-tuned vehicles starting from April 2023, followed by the production of E20-tuned engine vehicles from April 2025," the ministry said.

Does this mean that right now, it is only necessary for vehicle manufacturers to produce E20 compliant engines but not E20 Tuned engines?

I would assume that the latest engines have their tuning done properly but considering the fact that E20 fuel is yet to made available at most places, they might actually not be tuned for E20 yet!! This means that even the latest E20 compliant engines might suffer some knocking or other effects in long run.

What are your takes on E27 - when can this become available? How much time did research take for E20 to be made available? Further, what are your thoughts on E20 compliance vs E20 tuning.

Also, please provide suggestions on 2021 Ford Ecosport AT - assuming once E20 fuel is there, I can suffer significant maintenance costs in long run?

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by RDS

[i][b]"
Does this mean that right now, it is only necessary for vehicle manufacturers to produce E20 compliant engines but not E20 Tuned engines?

Yes.

Read the owners manual of any current E20 rated car. It will say two things

1. Fuel with no more than 20% ethanol content

2. If you are not satisfied with performance or fuel efficiency with E20, switch to petrol with lower ethanol content.

This clearly means that the cars are only E20 (max) material compliant, and are not fully tuned for it. The petrol engine is going through a massive transition period with this entire forced ethanol blending nonsense, and customers will be bearing the brunt of it. Manufacturers are all maintaining a studied silence, because they know that cars are going to come in with all kinds of issues sooner or later, and they are going to make a killing.

[RDS]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Yes.

Read the owners manual of any current E20 rated car. It will say two things

1. Fuel with no more than 20% ethanol content

2. If you are not satisfied with performance or fuel efficiency with E20, switch to petrol with lower ethanol content.

This clearly means that the cars are only E20 (max) material compliant, and are not fully tuned for it. The petrol engine is going through a massive transition period with this entire forced ethanol blending nonsense, and customers will be bearing the brunt of it. Manufacturers are all maintaining a studied silence, because they know that cars are going to come in with all kinds of issues sooner or later, and they are going to make a killing.

Thanks. I did some more research and found that E27 is going to be in flex fuel category. Hence, I assume that E20 will continue to be available separately once flex fuels are made fully available by 2030.

Source - “BPCL has commenced supply of E20 in many cities across the nation. Today’s flag off of the Pilot ED7for buses with Ashok Leyland and flex fuels (E27 & E85) for two wheelers along with Hero MotoCorp is a step by BPCL towards our country’s aim of reducing import bill & providing sustainability,” he added.

BTW, it is not only petrol engines. Diesel engines are also undergoing Pilot - Vehicle Manufacturers will indeed support this because it means minting money!

Seems this is the time one stays put - don't buy or buy used vehicles that you won't have an issue selling later at dirt cheap rates!

[anjan_c2007]

As I can put it that 100% ethanol is the best solution for the ethanolians. Let them make more and more ethanol cars that take birth drinking ethanol and drink ethanol till their death.

Like HM Ambassadors worked for humans from birth (ambulance) till death (hearses in Kolkata), ethanol working from birth to death for cars (100% ethanol) will be a good riddance from the lethal concoction for others.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by RDS

Thanks. I did some more research and found that E27 is going to be in flex fuel category. Hence, I assume that E20 will continue to be available separately once flex fuels are made fully available by 2030.

BTW, it is not only petrol engines. Diesel engines are also undergoing Pilot - Vehicle Manufacturers will indeed support this because it means minting money!

Seems this is the time one stays put - don't buy or buy used vehicles that you won't have an issue selling later at dirt cheap rates!

They said that E10 will continue to be available for older cars - they lied to our face. Now they are waving the big finger with E27. Guess it is only a matter of time that 2023-24 make E20 rated cars also become obsolete, unable to ply on higher ethanol blends that they will silently push down out collective throats. The sugar lobby is well entrenched, very powerful and knows it can get away with anything at this time.

Yeah, it just sucks to be a car buyer in India today. Can’t buy petrol in peace with all the ethanol nonsense, can’t buy diesel in peace with DPF issues, NGT restrictions and this proposed E blending, can’t by pre owned as they are not E20 compliant, can’t buy EV as the technology is still maturing.

I think the best way out for risk averse buyers is to buy Tata CNG cars, and run them on gas from their first day to their last day. Steer clear of petrol/diesel/EV altogether.

[The Rationalist]

What is this, some banana republic? I'm having an 9 year old car, and I'm no need to change it. Even though I can avail public transport for most times, some days I can't get them even if I wait for half an hour. Forget me, there will millions who have no option of reliable public transport. Extremely irresponsible move if this is gonna be true.

[GForceEnjoyer]

There's a line in the song "295" by Sidhu Moose Wala that roughly translates to "every day when I read the morning newspaper, it feels like God has given up."

While the context of the song is only somewhat related to the topic at hand, that is exactly how the owners of very old cars (who have also made the effort to get them re-registered in order to continue driving them for an indefinite period of time) feel every time we receive news of ever-increasing ethanol blends, with no regard given to owners of existing cars who are already paying a bomb to be able to own and drive them. E10
(regular, RON 91 petrol) is absolutely not parallelly available for older cars as of now, which is in direct contrast to what we were told earlier. Yet, we see the blend constantly increasing!

Link to RTI thread. (Filed an RTI regarding E20 fuel: Partial reply received)
In this thread, the response to the RTI filed by a fellow BHPian clearly shows that there is little to no understanding and very little research done regarding the effects of these ethanol blends on existing cars.

For all the hype around ethanol's green nature, just consider this. Is it more polluting to have to produce all-new cars from scratch every few years because the constantly changing fuel grade makes existing cars obsolete, or only having to produce one from scratch and have using it for 15-ish years? Most cars will run well beyond that time frame, but lots of people don't bother re-registering their rides after the 15-year mark, (another arbitrary figure which assumes that a perfectly compliant vehicle suddenly becomes a health hazard overnight after turning 15).

[chohan]

The irony is that while electric car adoption is on an undeniable upward trajectory with continuous improvements, many still harbor skepticism. On the flip side, there's an unwavering enthusiasm for ICE cars, even in the face of the ethanol frenzy.

We're all aware of the government's leaning toward ethanol. Their partnership with the sugarcane lobby is no secret, and the allure of saving substantial money on oil imports is undeniable. From a governmental perspective, it makes sense to increase ethanol in petrol as long as cars can efficiently transport people from point A to B. Performance dips and long-term engine wear seem to take a back seat.

Ultimately, the government's decision hinges on India's ethanol production capacity. The more we can produce, the more likely we are to see ethanol blended into our petrol.

[drsnt]

With so many engine issues speculated to happen in older cars, I am surprised no one has approached the Supreme Court for systemic implementation of Ethanol blending. It seems the government is going ahead with this project with no scientific studies on older engines and future effects on engines. The government needs to come clean with its approach backed with scientific data. While the nation saved a lot of money on crude imports, a common citizen will lose money on repair bills. Even automobile companies are secretive about their approach to the effects of ethanol blend. I have personally postponed my buying decision unless this confusion is cleared. As soon as reports of older engines having problems with new fuel start coming, the secondhand market will crash.

Edit: Filed a RTI with Ministry of Road just now. Will update on reply

1. Has the Ministry or any of the Petroleum companies done any research on the effect of E20 fuel on older engines that are E10 or less compliant.
2. Please provide details of such research if done or planning to be done in the near future.
3. What is the central government stand on the effect of E20 on older cars.
4. Will E10 fuel still be made available for older cars after April 2025
5. Has the government taken up any communication with automobile manufacturers regarding the effects of E20 and higher blend on older engines
6. What is the government timeline for implementing a higher ethanol blend more than E20
7. Has the government formed any committee or body to take up the views of stakeholders i.e. common citizens
8. Is the government planning to take up the issue of modification of older engines for compliance with E20.

[SoumenD]

Excellent!!! While I was still scratching my head wondering how E20 will affect my BS-4 car & BS-3 motorbike, here comes E27.

If this madness continues, guess the current set will be my last ICE car & motor-bike. The speed at which these regulations are changing, don't see a point in upgrading and spending big bucks on ICE vehicles anymore. Will continue to drive/ride these till they fall apart & then scrap them.

[urbanzameendar]

A question: Do Shell, Reliance & Nayara too dispense ethanol blend fuel, or is it just IOCL, BPCL, HPCL?

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by urbanzameendar

A question: Do Shell, Reliance & Nayara too dispense ethanol blend fuel, or is it just IOCL, BPCL, HPCL?

All of them are sell ethanol blended petrol.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by urbanzameendar

A question: Do Shell, Reliance & Nayara too dispense ethanol blend fuel, or is it just IOCL, BPCL, HPCL?

It is mandatory to sell blended petrol.

Also, what will sports and other high end car owners do with the shift to 20 and (gulp) 27% blended fuel? Surely they aren't tuned for such high percentage of ethanol!

The idea is to push people towards cleaner fuels and preferably EVs I get that. But vintage and older cars will require fuel with no more than 5 or maximum 10% ethanol. I only wish they had a separate pump for fuel for older non compliant engines.

[RDS]

Originally Posted by R2D2

It is mandatory to sell blended petrol.

Also, what will sports and other high end car owners do with the shift to 20 and (gulp) 27% blended fuel? Surely they aren't tuned for such high percentage of ethanol!

If people get educated enough on this topic, the car sales will drop drastically. Only then will the policymakers and manufacturers take note that people are not okay with being fooled.

No sane person, after knowing all this, jump into the car-buying bandwagon until and unless absolutely required or till one is getting a mind-boggling deal that negates the negatives. If the government clarifies its plan clearly in the long term, that only will eventually help.

No issues; let them make these changes because when people get hurt and lose trust, the industry is probably looking at a very long downturn!

This move shall impact masses, and the reaction will also be mass level when issues start cropping up, and service centers start informing that fuel is incompatible, so no warranty for you!

[contessa]

Is it confirmed regular Petro will not be available by 2026?

Most of our fuel pumps have 2 tanks (underground) - one for petrol and one for disel. It might not be possible to a buffet of regular petrol, E10, E20....in second or third tier cities, leave alone rural areas.

I'm almost on the verge of dropping the idea of buying a car because of this, as the car I'm considering does not support E20.