[pravint]

Our government is pushing for higher ethanol blended fuel assuming it is more greener and economically better for our country, but in reality is it so ?

Though on paper it may look like ethanol is greener when it burns, the process of ethanol production is quite polluting.

Production of ethanol in our country mainly relies on sugarcane farming. The Sugarcane farming requires lot of water, land, fertilisers and pesticides.
Sugarcane farming itself causes a lot of harm to the environment e.g Soil pollution, water scarcity, grain scarcity ,increased air pollution because of stubble burning.

when sugarcane reaches sugar factories/ethanol factories again it generates lot of pollution during industrial ethanol extraction.
The end product ethanol which should be cheaper than petrol, in reality is actually costlier than petrol .

Most of the sugar factories are owned by politicians and co-operative union lobbies who only want ethanol price to go up every year.
In case of blended fuels we are still paying sky high taxes to the central and state government.

All of these things really makes me think whether ethanol is really green option ? Is it being forced on us for benefit of sugarcane industry ?

[Shreyans_Jain]

Ethanol blending, in plain and simple terms, is the sugar lobby flexing its muscles and waving the big finger to all of us consumers. We can’t expect anything else when the transportation minister is a sugar baron himself. And the fact that the bulk of sugar cultivation happens in UP and Maharashtra, two politically most important states that the ruling party needs to dominate for the next general election.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Ethanol blending, in plain and simple terms, is the sugar lobby flexing its muscles and waving the big finger to all of us consumers. We can’t expect anything else when the transportation minister is a sugar baron himself. And the fact that the bulk of sugar cultivation happens in UP and Maharashtra, two politically most important states that the ruling party needs to dominate for the next general election.

Unfortunately they way agriculture is done currently it is not very green --- might be tad better than oil but that is just about it.

- Flood irrigation for example wastes a lot of electricity (which is kind of often free of cost)
pumping scarce underground water. This is particularly true for crops like sugar cane

- Large scale use of fertilizers and tilling (releases a lot of methane)

- Stubble burning.

However agriculture is some thing that is a necessity and we cannot do without. There are was to make it green and in fact can be a way to effectively become a carbon sink but not the way it is currently practiced. In any case it does not make any sense to use an agriculture product like sugar to fuel our car. Much like the hydrogen hype, ethanol is green in theory but grey in practice.

[Turbohead]

Although ethanol blending benefits the politicians the most, they are not claiming it to be green if I'm not wrong. All they're saying is that it reduces our dependency on oil producing nations and saves valuable foreign exchange. Win win for the national treasury and the politicians but it's an absolute L for the consumers who pay for cheap ethanol at regular fuel prices.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

Although ethanol blending benefits the politicians the most, they are not claiming it to be green if I'm not wrong. All they're saying is that it reduces our dependency on oil producing nations and saves valuable foreign exchange. Win win for the national treasury and the politicians but it's an absolute L for the consumers who pay for cheap ethanol at regular fuel prices.

They are marketing it as a green and eco friendly fuel. There are huge hoardings tom tomming this wherever E20 is being sold. The dispensers are also done up in green and white, with leaves design.

Don’t forget that the price of refined petrol (pre tax) is about half of what the government has decreed for ethanol (pre tax). It is a complete mockery of intelligence.

[marcellofms10]

I believe that considering ethanol a green fuel depends a lot on the point of view, as there are several factors to consider.

Indeed, the production of ethanol emits several pollutants when considering the entire production chain. But there are several mitigation mechanisms that can provide greater environmental efficiency in this regard.

Nowadays, virtually everything is polluted in some form around the world. So, one has to be aware that the environmental issue is increasingly relevant and for that, more demanding inspection mechanisms are increasingly necessary in several areas.

I believe that the higher cost of ethanol in India when compared to gasoline is due to the fact that this fuel is yet to become popular. Over time, this tends to reverse itself as it already happens in Brazil.

[Hayek]

Ethanol is certainly not a green fuel. Not even remotely close to one. In Brazil, which has plenty of water, sugar cane for ethanol is grown by clearing the Amazon forests. Certainly not green - in fact something that will lead to increased global warming. Please read this.

In the US, corn based ethanol is another boondoggle. At best marginally better than petroleum and quite possibly worse even before considering second order effects such as those on food prices.

And of course in India, which is a water starved nation, growing sugar cane even to produce sugar is highly questionable. Growing sugar cane to produce ethanol wastes scarce crop land and even scarcer water. Of course, it does nothing to reduce carbon emissions (we would be growing some other potentially less water intensive crop that would also sequester carbon), reduces fuel efficiency (since ethanol is only 2/3 as energy dense as petrol), and also damages engines and parts of cars.

But as some others have pointed out, in all these countries, you have lobbies of large agribusinesses or politician controlled sugar cooperatives which have every incentive in the world to boost production of sugar cane / corn based ethanol, and they influence policy more than anyone else.

In India, we have the added problem that some of the wise men in our government have gone back to the 1960s view that import substitution is good for our economy. What they fail to realise is that curbs on imports only leads to an appreciation of our currency, which makes our exports in unsubsidised sectors less competitive. So we end up in a higher cost, weaker exchange rate, lower trade equilibrium which hurts most Indians but benefits the few.

So yes, ethanol blending is unambiguously bad for the environment - but given the relative strength of lobbies that benefit from it vs those who lose out, it is only going to increase.

[Sensible_Speed]

Technically, ethanol can also be produced from other crops too. Now, if the government claims to be as concerned about the populace and country as we are led to believe, they must promote research and development on the methods to extract this from the said other crops and in a sustainable manner. As far as reducing fuel prices on the consumer's end, the whole market is a murky business and it is difficult to comment where the prices are being jacked up. The level of opacity is simply too high in the process of deciding fuel cost.

[marcellofms10]

I suppose you might be wrong and sharing false information.


If you research it, you will see that in Brazil, the cultivation of sugar cane is not done by cutting down the Amazon rainforest, despite the interest of the former Brazilian president in expanding exploration in that region. As the cultivation of sugar cane needs a drier climate with greater heat to obtain greater productivity, this is done mainly in the southeast and northeast regions of Brazil.



Regarding the lower efficiency of ethanol compared to gasoline, this only occurs because flex-fuel engines are developed in order to only partially meet a level of efficiency with ethanol and gasoline. Stellantis announced in Brazil its interest in resuming the development of the T4 engine of the GSE family, powered exclusively by ethanol, with the aim of reducing the difference in consumption when compared to a flex-fuel engine and matching that of an engine powered exclusively by gasoline.

When it is stated that ethanol damages engines and other components of a vehicle, it must be emphasized that this only occurs when these are developed to run only on gasoline and are later fueled exclusively with ethanol or with it in large proportions. In Brazil, gasoline contains 25 or 27% ethanol in its composition and older vehicles function normally.

If this fuel was really harmful, it would not have been a great success in the South American country. This year, 2023, marks the 20th anniversary of the development of flex-fuel engines, and over 40 million vehicles have been sold with this type of engine during this period, including premium brands such as Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Jaguar and Land Rover.

I believe that ethanol can only be partially considered bad for the environment! In fact, currently, virtually all fuel sources are harmful to the environment. In Europe, China and the United States, despite the advancement of electrification, a large part of the energy matrix used in electricity generation comes from non-renewable sources.

I think we should consider ethanol not as the only alternative towards a more environmentally sustainable automotive future, but as an ally. Toyota recently announced its participation in a study to generate hydrogen from ethanol in Brazil. Nissan, VW and Stellantis are also doing the same.

[NomadSK]

Here are my 2 cents on this;

Originally Posted by pravint

Our government is pushing for higher ethanol blended fuel assuming it is more greener and economically better for our country, but in reality is it so ?

Sorry, but it’s not an assumption that ethanol is a “greener” fuel. There’s a reason it’s termed as “Renewable resource”. I will refrain to go in chemistry here as it will go off tangent.

Though on paper it may look like ethanol is greener when it burns, the process of ethanol production is quite polluting.

I didn’t understand, How the process of ethanol production is more polluting than producing petrol/diesel. The process involved turns biomass into biofuels using enzymes and microorganisms. Thus each and every country can produce it in-house and be somewhat independent of OPEC cartel and reduce their dependency on them. Also Ethanol is energy positive, which means, it produces more energy than it’s used to make it.

The 2 byproducts after the process is complete, is solid leftover which is used for livestock feed and CO2 which is used industrially for dry ice or captured for industrial use.

Production of ethanol in our country mainly relies on sugarcane farming. The Sugarcane farming requires lot of water, land, fertilisers and pesticides.

That’s partially true. It’s not all about sugarcane which is the feedstock material for production of ethanol.

B-Molasses, biomass in form of grasses, agriculture residues (Rice straw, cotton stalk, corn cobs, saw dust, bagasse etc.) , sugar containing materials like sugar beet, sweet sorghum, etc. and starch containing materials such as corn, cassava, rotten potatoes etc., Damaged food grains like wheat, broken rice etc. which are unfit for human consumption, Food grains during surplus phase. Algal feedstock and cultivation of sea weeds can also be a potential feedstock for ethanol production.

There are stringent environmental clearances to be conformed to before one sets up a distillation unit for ethanol production. Also it’s the surplus of the production which goes into the production of the ethanol. This is what ministry has to say;

The task force on sugarcane and sugar industry constituted under the Chairmanship of Professor Ramesh Chand, Member (Agriculture), NITI Aayog, there is a need for change in crop pattern, to reduce dependence on one particular crop and to move to more environmentally sustainable crops for ethanol production. Cereals, particularly maize, and Second Generation (2G) biofuels with suitable technological innovations offer promise of a more environmentally benign alternative feedstock for production of ethanol.

All of these things really makes me think whether ethanol is really green option ? Is it being forced on us for benefit of sugarcane industry ?

I really don’t think it’s being forced on us. Looking at the broader perspective and reducing the green house gases emission and since world is heading toward the carbon neutral regime, this is a welcome step forward. The basic reason to implement this is to minimize our dependence on the import of oil over a period of time and being one of the major importers of oil, it gives a big dent to the tax payers money, which flows out of country. And when India has declared its commitment to reduce its Emissions Intensity by 45 percent by 2030 with a long-term goal of reaching net-zero emissions by 2070, the implementation becomes more pertinent.

And agreed the implementation is giving the teething problems for the end road users initially till the refineries/logistics/ manufacturer’s iron out design related issues and till we reach a level platform.

Thanks

[Nilesh5417]

While there has been enough debate above on environmental impact, let me also state that diverting arable land towards crops that support commercial production of ethanol is going to increasingly impact food security of the world's population.

[pravint]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Here are my 2 cents on this;

I really don’t think it’s being forced on us. Looking at the broader perspective and reducing the green house gases emission and since world is heading toward the carbon neutral regime, this is a welcome step forward. The basic reason to implement this is to minimize our dependence on the import of oil over a period of time and being one of the major importers of oil, it gives a big dent to the tax payers money, which flows out of country.
…

As an end user I dont see any price difference, be it bifuel or regular gasoline. In fact distilled ethanol is more costly (almost double) the price of gasoline.

If we want to talk about money flowing out of India, even the ethanol with such high price is going to fill pockets of politicians and sugar lobby, which in the end will either go to swiss banks or in real estate as black money.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by pravint

As an end user I dont see any price difference ,be it bifuel or regular gasoline.
In fact distilled ethanol is more costly(almost double ) the price of gasoline.

Sorry, I didn’t understand how ethanol costs “almost double” of gasoline. Can you pls substantiate it with data.

Study shows, Ethanol used for blending costs from Rs 45-63/litre depending on the feedstock.

End user doesn’t see the price difference because petrol is subject to excise duty and GST is levied on ethanol.

Excise duty on petrol ~ Rs33/litre
GST on ethanol ~ 2.3-3.2/litre (5% on Agri product depending on the feedstock)

If certain %age of ethanol is blended with the petrol, that’s clear revenue loss (around Rs30/litre, if my math is correct) to central government. Although it’s beneficial for the environment.

If we want to talk about money flowing out of India, even the ethanol with such high price is going to fill pockets of politicians and sugar lobby, which in the end will either go to swiss banks or in real estate as black money.

I can comment technically/logically on the subject. However this is completely out of my domain to put any further comments on this.

[pravint]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Sorry, I didn’t understand how ethanol costs “almost double” of gasoline. Can you pls substantiate it with data.

Study shows, Ethanol used for blending costs from Rs 45-63/litre depending on the feedstock.

Here is recent news article stating ethanol price per litre is 65.60 Rs/Litre
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...2.cms?from=mdr

Attaching the video from engineering explained about ethanol and how America was wrong about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU

[shankar.balan]

Ethanol addition or should I say ‘adulteration’ in our fuel is fuelled (pun absolutely intended) by the Corn Lobby in America and by the Sugarcane Lobby in India.
I fail to see how it can be ‘green’.
Considering that Sugar is the No 1 Killer.
And Sugarcane requires far more water than we have, in a drought prone water starved country like ours.