[Bibendum90949]

So it's here, very much here - the Ethanol blended petrol playing havoc with fuel systems and components. i've just got the first taste of it after my Gypsy has gone to the mechanic for it's yearly oil changes and other running repairs before the start of another off road season. It being a modified off road spec Gypsy, it's rarely used on the road.




The runs which it see are weekly once or so to keep the battery juice going, about 10-15 kms. Hence I don't fill more than 7-8 litres petrol at a time. It's tanked up only when a trip is lined up and just before it commences. Even then, there must be always min 5 litres fuel in the tank. While this is what I do generally to upkeep the vehicle, many a times the vehicle was parked for 3 weeks on the trot owing to me going out of station etc.

The car had misfiring issues on last couple of occassions I drove. Upon investigating further, it's found that the fuel tank was plagued with rust and even the fuel pump and float has rusted beyond recognition. I can't think of any other villain than the E10,E15 petrol which we all have to fill inevitably to our older non compatible engines/cars. My mechanic, a very experienced chap, is also of the same opinion and so are few other experts whom I spoke to. He's saying he has seen similar cases in motorcycle fuel tanks and few other cars, especially those that doesn't run on a regular basis.

Damage to the pocket is 15k and below parts are getting replaced. Cleaning/Servicing them was an option though but no guarantee of it functioning as intended. With my Gypsy likely to be at all sorts of offbeat places at odd hours and inclement weather, I didn't want to take a chance to do that and get stranded, especially with something as important as fuel systems. Hence changing the following parts.

Fuel Tank
Fuel Pump
Fuel Float
Spark Plugs
Rubber hoses(most of them)

Besides, throttle body and injectors have been cleaned though they were largely looking good to the naked eye.

It appears like we've to find a way to mitigate this problem or accept to live with the problem and bear the repair cost every now and then or worse be prepared to get stranded out of the blue. Cars that are not driven on a regular basis are going to bear the brunt more I suppose and take a hit on reliability. We've enough threads here discussing the perils of using ethanol blended fuel on older generation engines.

There are additives available to safeguard the ethanol damages but all are extremely expensive. Here's one such option priced at ₹1900 which can treat roughly 20 litres petrol. This translates to ~ ₹200 per litre(fuel+additive). I am buying this and planning to mix it with petrol whenever car gets parked for longer duration. Hope it can salvage the unfortunate plight to some extend



So it's advisable to use your older gen petrol cars,or any car for that matter, on a regular basis to save yourself from these hassles and maintenance expenses. The vehicle is slated to be back today evening after the repairs. Fingers crossed.

How I wish a PIL is filed to make ethanol free petrol made available. Enough has been written and discussed on the topic in our forum itself. I just don't want to go there. This is the sad reality and it appears like one has to live with it. I just wonder how the vintage car owners are maintaining their cars. I dread to think of similar damages to those beauties. With Gypsy, one can still breath easy since parts are always available and much cheaper barring few.

Given the situation, what are the best possible and practical solutions/options one has to protect our dear old vehicles from the menace of ethanol? All this damage is with E10, E15. It's anybody's guess what would the scene be like with E 20. . Used up the max two emoticons per post, and quite rightly the apt one.

Mods, please move to appropriate section if not found at the right place.

[shankar.balan]

@Bibendum:

Your White and Green Gypsys are both quite old.
I can personally vouch for the Green one because it has a new tank and float valve and all. Done during the full restoration I undertook in 2018-2019.

Unless lab-tested and proven I would not blindly buy the theory that the entire damage is due to ethanol since ethanol blending is a more recent phenomenon.
The amount of rust visible on the internals cannot be solely and directly ascribed to ethanol in my opinion. Age and generally less use has some part to play here.
Yes as I have shared with you and others personally before, we think this Sta-Bil product may help. There is a more expensive product from Lucas too.
These fuel stabilizers were originally suggested to me by our common friend Keroo from Tbhp -(Kedar) more than 1 year ago. I am putting this in my Cooper and my Gypsy also now and have suggested it to others as well.

But one thing the Govt must do is to allow us the choice to pay and buy standard fuel so as to be able to use our Ethanol non-compliant vehicles and the lovely vintage vehicles too.

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

@Bibendum:

Your White and Green Gypsys are both quite old.
I can personally vouch for the Green one because it has a new tank and float valve and all. Done during the full restoration I undertook in 2018-2019.

Unless lab-tested and proven I would not blindly buy the theory that the entire damage is due to ethanol since ethanol blending is a more recent phenomenon.
The amount of rust visible on the internals cannot be solely and directly ascribed to ethanol in my opinion. Age and generally less use has some part to play here.

Yes I agree completely with you and I did think about that. This rust isn't something which has developed overnight. There's no denying the fact that ethanol isn't a friend to our car's fuel systems. We've been getting E10 since 2 years if I'm not wrong and E15 off late. Wouldn't this be a long term(2-3 years) effect of that combined with intermittent use of the vehicle? Why I say so because the car has been having misfiring issues for sometime. It was running perfectly the whole of 2021 and a good part of '22 too. It's just that only now I asked the mechanic to have a thorough check and we unearthed this.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Yes I agree completely with you and I did think about that. This rust isn't something which has developed overnight. There's no denying the fact that ethanol isn't a friend to our car's fuel systems. We've been getting E10 since 2 years if I'm not wrong and E15 off late. Wouldn't this be a long term effect of that combined with intermittent use of the vehicle? Why I say so because the car has been having misfiring issues for sometime. It's just that only now I asked the mechanic to have a thorough check and we unearthed this.

Bro,
Do you remember when in 2021 May. my Cooper developed headaches?

And remember the diagnosis about the aged and cruddy Fuel Filter, the aged PCV valve, the membrane and all?

Well, I drive that car with great care since then, after those essential repairs and parts replacements and cleaning all the injectors and changing all the ignition coils to higher performance ones and the spark plugs to Iridium ones.

I never stomp on the accelerator madly, always taking the revs up and speeds up in a more controlled manner since then.

Why? Because I absolutely dread the ‘warning light’ and ‘misfiring’ and ‘combustion cylinder 3 misfire’ and ‘limp mode’.

But I drive it. We have taken it to Ooty and Coorg and Chikmagalur and Madras and Valparai and Coimbatore and all, multiple times.

I am however, very careful of the petrol I fill and the STP or ProcTane Octane Booster Juice that I add to every tank.

@robimahanta came to my rescue with his OBD those days and Aniruddh and Umesh of Aeon helped me to set the car right with a lot of those imported and expensive parts.

Now let us use Sta-Bil or Lucas or similar juice and see if it helps. I ve posted about this ‘juice’ on the main Ethanol Blend thread also.

There are a couple more things to be researched on parts which we can buy and change for Ethanol damage prevention.

Couple of links here - (pertaining to the Cooper though)

Let us practise preventive measures. I guess thats the best we can do.

[Shreyans_Jain]

There is only one solution at this time.

Hindustan Petroleum’s Power 100.

This is the only petrol currently on sale that is 100% petrol and zero ethanol. It costs 160 rupees a liter but that is cheaper than the price of constant worry, breakdowns and repairs.

Fact is that all car owners are getting screwed right now. They are killing our machines bought with our hard earned money, and we can only watch.

[condor]

+1 to what Shankar has said in Post #2 here. The amount of rust seen in those pics looks like has happened over time, and not just over past few months.

[Bhargav7]

I am unsure what stops private players like Shell and Nayara from selling non-blended petrol. Indeed, there will be a lot of demand in the near future when the ethanol blending goes beyond 10%.

I hope they launch it soon. At this point, most of us are no longer worried about price as well. We just need petrol.

[tharian]

I have been using a 1972 FIAT 1100D since 2017. It belongs to a fellow member who has moved out of the country and left the car with me so that it doesn't remain unused.
Few months ago it crossed a lakh kms on the odo and as far as I know, with no engine work.
The car is fired up mid-week for few minutes, but not taken out and on the weekend, I take for a drive which is around 7-10 kms. Otherwise the car is idle. I used to top up the tank as well to avoid visiting the petrol bunk often and the visit to the pump used to be once in 3 months. Now, I don't top up everytime, but most of the time, there is quarter to half tank fuel in the tank.

A month ago, the engine took long cranks to fire up on a cold start and this was if the car was left idle for more than couple of days. Finally when it fired up, I had to give it some gas to prevent it from turning off which was not the case earlier as it would idle even on a cold engine with no accelerator input. And then once the engine reaches operating temperature, it wouldn't idle and turn off as well. I thought the fuel pump was acting up again since these were the same symptoms that were present a couple of years ago when the fuel pump had failed. I stopped taking the car out except for starting it and letting it warm up once a week and was planning on taking the car to a mech to fix the pump.
Weirdly, one fine day, all the symptoms vanished and the engine was back to its normal self. It starts in half a crank or at the most couple of cranks if left idle for few days, idles perfectly, runs fine even after heating up.
This had happened once before, but for a short time when the engine would die and I had to increase the revs considerably to avoid the car from stalling in traffic.

My guess is rust in the tank blocking the fuel lines and then clearing itself up. Rust in the tank for an old car like this is no surprise.
The engine runs fine otherwise and I use System G every time I fill fuel. Haven't found any difference either from how the car behaved 6 years ago and today. There may be negative effects of ethanol blend fuel which probably hasn't reached a stage on this car that it shows and needs to be fixed.

[Jeroen]

As other members mentioned, doubtful if all this rust is caused by ethanol.

There is no doubt that ethanol can cause havoc with the various components in a fuel system. The older the car, the more likely you will get problems.

Here in Europe I can still get ethanol free petrol. It costs more than regular E10 blended petrol. But that is a price I happily pay for my four old cars!

About all these fuel additions, none of them get rid of the ethanol. They all work the same, they delay the effects of ethanol. So if you don’t drive, and fill up regularly, you might still get problems.

Good luck,
Jeroen

[A M]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Hence I don't fill more than 7-8 litres petrol at a time.

This reminds me of college days when Rs.100/- of petrol every few days, that translates to roughly 2-2.5L @ Rs.40-45/L in those days, was a custom with every student. I was once told by a very experienced mechanic to shun this practice and resort to tankful to tankful method to avoid rusting of the fuel tank as rust does not form if fuel is always in contact with the metal.
Since your vehicle is fairly aged, that might be the reason for rusting in your case rather than ethanol blending.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

I don't fill more than 7-8 litres petrol at a time. It's tanked up only when a trip is lined up and just before it commences. Even then, there must be always min 5 litres fuel in the tank. While this is what I do generally to upkeep the vehicle, many a times the vehicle was parked for 3 weeks on the trot owing to me going out of station etc.

This is where the root of your problem lies. Coming from the chemical background within Oil & Gas Industry, let me put in my 2 cents;

Ethanol is hygroscopic/hydrophyllic, meaning that it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The more the percentage of the blend in the fuel, the more capabiliy of absorbing the moisture. This can lead to storage problems, as water can accumulate in the fuel tank and cause accelerated corrosion. In addition, the oxidation of ethanol leads to the creation of corrosive by-products that damage engine components over time.

Ethanol-blended fuels left idle in the tank can start “phasing.” Phase separation is when ethanol in the fuel absorbs too much water (over certain percentage, different for different percentage of blending), and separates from gasoline by dropping to the bottom of the tank since the ethanol and water mixture that results from phase separation is heavier than petrol (formation of colloidal solution). Once a phase separation happens, it’s a non-reversible process. In general, no additive will help after this separation happens. The easiest way to avoid phase separation is to keep the fuel tank "Almost" full at all times. Fuel additive helps to avoid phase separation, but before it happens in actual.

Eventually if we will try to crank the engine after phase separation has happened, you are bound to have the problems with all the systems involved. Throwing warning lights, is the first to start with.

Generally, petrol engines are low compression engines and the metallurgy used in the construction is aluminum, ethanol reacts with aluminum and is susceptible to rapid corrosion rates, termed as as "alcoholate corrosion", which generally happens at elevated temperatures. I won't touch it here, as This will go off tangent.

If this all wasn’t enough, Presence of the oxygen compound in the ethanol also associate it with microbial contamination.

So, what we can do as a preventive maintenance -

1. Add non-alcohol fuel stabilizer/additive in your fuel system at all times. This will prevent phase separation.

2. Try to utilize your vehicle on regular basis and don’t keep it idle for longer periods.

3. If you don’t intend to use the vehicle for longer period, you have 2 options, either keep the tank almost full with fuel (less chances of moisture being trapped) or keep it all empty.

4. Make sure to buy the fuel from reputable petrol pumps, in my opinion, reputable petrol pumps are, where the turnover of the fuel product is continuously happening.

5. Old plastic/rubber parts should be regularly inspected and should be replaced if they are not compatible with ethanol blended fuel.

Cheers

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

So, what we can do as a preventive maintenance -

1. Add non-alcohol fuel stabilizer/additive in your fuel system at all times. This will prevent phase separation.

2. Try to utilize your vehicle on regular basis and don’t keep it idle for longer periods.

3. If you don’t intend to use the vehicle for longer period, you have 2 options, either keep the tank almost full with fuel (less chances of moisture being trapped) or keep it all empty.

4. Make sure to buy the fuel from reputable petrol pumps, in my opinion, reputable petrol pumps are, where the turnover of the fuel product is continuously happening.

5. Old plastic/rubber parts should be regularly inspected and should be replaced if they are not compatible with ethanol blended fuel.

Cheers

Wonderfully clear explanation.

When you say dont keep it idle for ‘longer periods’ how do you define what exactly such a ‘longer period’ is?

A week?
A fortnight?
Or ?

Thanks a lot!

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

When you say dont keep it idle for ‘longer periods’ how do you define what exactly such a ‘longer period’ is?

A week?
A fortnight?
Or ?

Technically the "longer duration" will mean when or how long it will take for the phase separation to take place in ethanol blended fuel.

Let me elucidate a bit further, you can deduce the answer to your query based on that,

Water in the car fuel tank/Storage locations will continue to be absorbed into the ethanol-blended fuel until it reaches a saturation point. It’s a continuous process. Now we don’t know here, how much time that will take, as it will depend on various factors. With E10 fuel at 15°C, this saturation point is at approximately 0.5% water to the volume of fuel. Once the blended fuel reaches this saturation level (depending on the absorbed moisture from the underground tanks where its stored in the first place, condensation in the tank, water leakages into the fuel storage tanks and the atmospheric humidity level, which keeps on varying from place to place) the ethanol-water mixture separates from the fuel and falls to the bottom.

The phase separation is generally detected at the Fuel pumps/Tank farms, where they monitor water detection in the tanks/water finding paste (which is at the bottom of the tank) /with dispenser filters. Next time you go for refueling, ask them how they ensure the quality of the blended fuel. It is anticipated that the fuel in the vehicle/cars will be continuously utilized/burned.

Before reaching the phase separation (the problematic area), an alternate phenomenon happens, at less percentage of water, which is called as “partial phase separation”. (Won’t get into more details and complicate it further). But this, partial phase separation is a reversible/temporary phenomenon, if the tank of fuel is agitated at this point (while driving which will eventually happen) the ethanol-water will be re-absorbed into the fuel and partial phase separation will cease to exist. Which explains that it's better to keep moving your cars.

So economically, to check the blended fuel makes sense only when we are handling huge fuel quantities at petrol pumps or tank farms where fuel is stored and such prediction is automated with continuous early detection of the problem. Blended fuel Samples can be taken and send to lab for testing. However, for small car users like us, it’s better to keep using our cars regularly and keep the fuel in rotation or in short Keep revving and keep the "longer period" as minimum as possible

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Technically the "longer duration" will mean when or how long it will take for the phase separation to take place in ethanol blended fuel.

So economically, to check the blended fuel makes sense only when we are handling huge fuel quantities at petrol pumps or tank farms where fuel is stored and such prediction is automated with continuous early detection of the problem. Blended fuel Samples can be taken and send to lab for testing. However, for small car users like us, it’s better to keep using our cars regularly and keep the fuel in rotation or in short Keep revving and keep the "longer period" as minimum as possible

Fantastic inputs. Really appreciate your clarity.
What is your opinion of these fuel stabilisers (screenshots attached)?
Or would you be able to point us towards any alternatives?
And I would value any inputs at all that you may have, on the third screenshot of the Flex Fuel kit.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Fantastic inputs. Really appreciate your clarity.
What is your opinion of these fuel stabilisers (screenshots attached)?
Or would you be able to point us towards any alternatives?
And I would value any inputs at all that you may have, on the third screenshot of the Flex Fuel kit.

Thanks for your comments.

Coming from an Oil and gas industry, one thing I can tell you for sure, adding anything to the fuel is MOSTLY a marketing gimmick of various companies. It’s a big big industry and uncle SAM rules the roost. Thumb rule- If in doubt or want to use any additive, the best bet is to consult your car manufacturer. They are the best judge. For modern cars with a catalytic converter installed there are a few additives available that would do the trick.

These additives won’t harm for sure, but at the same time won’t give any added advantages too, unless they are backed-up with some serious tests results. Most of them will be sold in the market with “conditions applied” strategy.

Correct me if I’m wrong. The last attachment is a Bluetooth sensor for letting you know how much ethanol is in the blend, how that will be beneficial for you ? If the sole purpose is to know the ethanol in the blend, then I would suggest a simple ethanol tester available in the market. Unfortunately, I don’t have any experience on this Bluetooth sensor based kit, but I would have serious issue with the sensor based calibration over a period of time to get accurate results, so won’t be able to comment on it.