[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Thanks for your comments.

Coming from an Oil and gas industry, one thing I can tell you for sure, adding anything to the fuel is MOSTLY a marketing gimmick of various so won’t be able to comment on it.

Excellent and to the point! Thanks again. Our other friend on the forum @Hserus the ‘oil’ man, is also of a similar opinion about additives. I guess these are in a sense partially effective and won’t harm. And they definitely play a role by also acting as a sort of a soothing ‘salve’ to the mind of the concerned Car owner. Another member @Kosfactor also is a non believer of additives.
But personally I would rather invest in additives like Proctane and STP Octane booster juice rather than just live with this stupid ethanol and do nothing about it.

Coming to this Bluetooth thing, I am glad you answered the way you did. Problem is that when one gets worried then one casts about in multiple directions like a fish caught at the end of the line. Am glad there is a knowledgeable forum like this one, in which one can check and validate things and learn about stuff that genuinely works and is useful and stuff that doesn’t.

The other question I had for you, and this is the real nub of the matter. My car and many other cars, tell us that they can drink a max of E10. What can we do and indeed, what shall we do, when the noose inexorably tightens around our necks with this gradual E15 and E20?

The worst thing is that they don’t mark the Ethanol content and the process is not at all transparent here. At this moment there isnt even a choice to pay more and buy normal ethanol free petrol!

1. What will happen to our max E10 compatible cars if the government supplies and feeds only E15 and E20 to all the Petrol pumps?
2. Does IOCL XP95 (which is what I use) have more than E10 in it?
3. Is it true that XP 100 is Ethanol free?

[ninjatalli]

Wonderful points @NOMADSK. Thank you for sharing these here. A few clarifications regarding the suggested bullet points in your earlier post:
1. Does this apply to both petrol and diesel? Or is it more specific to one fuel (petrol as the above discussion refers to)?
2. Many of us, when leaving the car unused for long durations, ask a friend or family member to keep the car running. Is there a reasonable amount of running / driving around suggested? Or would running the car stationary for a while (say 30 mins - 1 hour) also suffice?
3. I have also heard suggestions of adding some engine oil as a precaution - can I assume that also would not do any much benefit?

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

1. Does this apply to both petrol and diesel?
2.sk a friend or family member to keep the car running. Is there a reasonable amount of running / driving around suggested? Or would running the car stationary for a while (say 30 mins - 1 hour) also suffice?
3. I have also heard suggestions of adding some engine oil as a precaution -?

While we wait for NomadSK I will step in with just a little input.
1. Petrol is the fuel where they are adding a lot of ethanol but it is already rumoured that they are testing ethanol addition in Diesel too. Best be prepared.
2. Like NomadSK has earlier pointed out there is no substitute for using the car regularly and running it and allowing all the fluids to circulate and all the systems and all moving parts to work. Leaving the car idle fot long is a bad practice. Switching on and idling the car is not really a substitute for driving it. (The Italian Tune Up!)
3.This 2T oil hack is something Ive heard too from people but if at all it works it will only likely work in older cars. Probably more likely useable in carburetted cars and bikes than those with Electronic Fuel Injection systems, because the tolerances in these Electronically controlled engines are much tighter and less forgiving and hence may not take kindly to engine oil mixed in the petrol.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

The other question I had for you, and this is the real nub of the matter. My car and many other cars, tell us that they can drink a max of E10. What can we do and indeed, what shall we do, when the noose inexorably tightens around our necks with this gradual E15 and E20?

The worst thing is that they don’t mark the Ethanol content and the process is not at all transparent here. At this moment there isnt even a choice to pay more and buy normal ethanol free petrol!

1. What will happen to our max E10 compatible cars if the government supplies and feeds only E15 and E20 to all the Petrol pumps?
2. Does IOCL XP95 (which is what I use) have more than E10 in it?
3. Is it true that XP 100 is Ethanol free?

E20 petrol is on full fledged sale here in Delhi. As for your query on what happens, well, yesterday night, I had tanked up my 2012 Jazz at a reputed bunk in Delhi. Within 10 minutes of filling up, the car started jerking, misfiring and later would just not respond to throttle inputs. Car is currently at the Honda dealership, awaiting opening up of the fuel tank. Most likely diagnosis is water in fuel, compliments of E20. The dealership’s night guard said they are getting cars with such problems on a daily basis.

Ethanol % of every individual incoming lot will be known to the owner of the fuel bunk. But they have no control over what % blend they will get from the depot. Attendants are invariably completely oblivious.

IOCL’s XP95 is E12 as on date. It used to be E10 a few months back, but I can confirm it is E12 now. Ethanol % is increasing, steadily and silently.

HPCL’s Power100 (I incorrectly mentioned it as XP100 in my earlier post) is ethanol free, but again, as of now.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

IOCL’s XP95 is E12 as on date. It used to be E10 a few months back, but I can confirm it is E12 now. Ethanol % is increasing, steadily and silently.

HPCL’s Power100 (I incorrectly mentioned it as XP100 in my earlier post) is ethanol free, but again, as of now.

Wow. This is BAD news indeed. What about the rest of India?
And how do you say you are able to confirm that XP95 is E12?
Is there a way of invoking RTI and getting accurate, transparent information?

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Wow. This is BAD news indeed. What about the rest of India?
And how do you say you are able to confirm that XP95 is E12?
Is there a way of invoking RTI and getting accurate, transparent information?

We have a fuel bunk in the family, so I am fairly abreast with the developments.

Sharing a limited screen grab from the ‘system’.



As you can see, the fuel spec is clearly mentioned - XP95, BS6 grade and E12. This image is from the last week of December 2022, and the ethanol content for XP95 was still 12% as of yesterday.

This information is provided by the OMC for every individual delivery to a fuel bunk. Like I said, the petrol pump owner will know, as he has access to this information. No need to file RTIs on this.

Ethanol % can change from upstream and with no prior intimation. Dealers have no control on it. They have to sell what they get.

Earlier, a BHPian had shared a tweet from IOCL in another thread, confirming ethanol % in XP95 to be 10%.

[Turbanator]

I stumbled upon this thread. Can this all be due to the water?


Ethanol–gasoline blends (EGBs) can easily absorb large amounts of water because of the presence of ethanol. Acidic compounds and ions can be dissolved in water, and these substances can have corrosive effects on metallic construction materials.


https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...p-lokasil.html

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Hence I don't fill more than 7-8 litres petrol at a time. It's tanked up only when a trip is lined up and just before it commences. Even then, there must be always min 5 litres fuel in the tank.

Originally Posted by NomadSK

3. If you don’t intend to use the vehicle for longer period, you have 2 options, either keep the tank almost full with fuel (less chances of moisture being trapped) or keep it all empty.

I remember my ancient family driver telling me this old tip to keep a petrol tank almost full when lying unused. These were Hindustan Ambassadors and coupled with the variable fuel in those days, used to rust the fuel tanks regularly.

[Blooming Flower]

While other members have rightly pointed out the amount of rust is not solely caused by E10 fuel it is proven that ethanol has a drastic effect on existing ancillary fuel systems. It's interesting to note E20 and higher-rated vehicles and flex-fuel ones need changes mostly in the fuel line and hoses. Rubbers are the most susceptible to damage from ethanol blends. The main engine block requires very minor alteration for flex-fuel compatibility compared to the polymeric/elastomeric components. Plastic tanks are gaining popularity with OEMs as they eliminated the rusting issue as well as contribute to weight reduction. Suitable material with cost-effective manufacturing is the greatest challenge for flex-fuel vehicles. E0 availability in future is really doubtful, and this might silently age the older cars quicker than they are supposed to.

Also, keeping a tank to the brim ensures lesser chances of such rusting issues inside the metal fuel tank.

[NomadSK]

Here are my inputs below for the concerns,

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

1. What will happen to our max E10 compatible cars if the government supplies and feeds only E15 and E20 to all the Petrol pumps?
2. Does IOCL XP95 (which is what I use) have more than E10 in it?
3. Is it true that XP 100 is Ethanol free?

1. Government cannot do this, simply because there are many stake holders in the process, Oil Industry/Auto Manufacturers/Equipment suppliers/Ethanol manufacturers/End users. They will have the ensure all blend levels are available in the market. That doesnt mean all petrol bunks will have the kind of blend you are looking for, you may have to go around blocks to find the bunk which is providing the fuel you need. Government will have to provide a level playing field for the blend range, blend level and octane number. When we say E10, it doesn’t definitely mean 10% of ethanol in the blend, it’s the average range as specified in the standards and oil industry has to follow it. Moreover, Belding is not done in the refinery where gasoline is produced. It's mostly done in the tank farms.

2. As mentioned earlier it’s the range in which the blend is done, they may say it E10, but in actual the value may vary within the range. Surely it won’t go out of the range.

3. No idea about XP100, if its ethanol free, but if you are not sure, ask for the last delivery ticket from the petrol pump to ensure and clear off your doubts.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

1. Does this apply to both petrol and diesel? Or is it more specific to one fuel (petrol as the above discussion refers to)?
2. Many of us, when leaving the car unused for long durations, ask a friend or family member to keep the car running. Is there a reasonable amount of running / driving around suggested? Or would running the car stationary for a while (say 30 mins - 1 hour) also suffice?
3. I have also heard suggestions of adding some engine oil as a precaution - can I assume that also would not do any much benefit?

1. So far it applies only for Petrol fuels, because the octane number of ethanol is higher as compared to its cetane value. Ethanol use in spark-ignited engine is relatively easy, since the properties of ethanol resembles that of petrol. However, work is going on for diesel blending too. Although, ethanol use in compression ignition engines is challenging, in that case either the engine or fuel needs to be modified. Its a work in progress for diesels. I will have various questions, as ethanol differs considerably from HSD on Cetane number/Heating value/Self ignition under compression/Vaporization/Boiling Point/Lubricity

2. As mentioned by Shankar, for ethanol blended fuel agitation and churning of the fuel is important unlike in gasoline, where just engine running can be sufficient.

3. In general I'm not a fan of adding any additive to the fuel, unless it shows some robust results and benefits. Regular Cleaning your MAF and throttle body will be more beneficial than adding some unknown additives. However, if you are of the opinion that it helps you, then you should go ahead.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

IOCL’s XP95 is E12 as on date. It used to be E10 a few months back, but I can confirm it is E12 now. Ethanol % is increasing, steadily and silently.

As mentioned before, it works in the "blend level range".

Originally Posted by Turbanator

I stumbled upon this thread. Can this all be due to the water?
Ethanol–gasoline blends (EGBs) can easily absorb large amounts of water because of the presence of ethanol. Acidic compounds and ions can be dissolved in water, and these substances can have corrosive effects on metallic construction materials.

That’s true, ethanol being hygroscopic, will absorb moisture/water from the air, even if there is no other source to get water. Amount of water ethanol can absorb in a blend, is a fixed percentage only, after crossing this percentage level, it will form a colloidal solution and settle at the bottom of the tank.

For people who want to know more on E20 blending, can refer to IS-17943 BIS code for further knowledge. This is where any changes would be reflected first. Unfortunately, I don't have the copy as of now, trying to look for one.

Next time remember, If fuel is getting expensive, it’s not because of the crude prices going up, it can be corn prices are being regulated.

Last but not the least, Thank you "WATER" for all the Good and Bad things, it keeps us on toes, whether healthwise or workwise

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

1. Government cannot do this, simply because there are many stake holders in the process, Oil Industry/Auto Manufacturers/Equipment suppliers/Ethanol manufacturers/End users. They will have the ensure all blend levels are available in the market.

Sir, it has already happened. It’s not hypothetical anymore. Here in Delhi NCR, apart for that 160bucks a liter Power100, there is no petrol of any kind from any make that is E10 or less. Everything has more than 10% ethanol. E12 and E15 for normal unleaded petrol has been the norm for many months now, and now E20 is also being sold here.

We are already well past the 10% threshold, increasing steadily and silently. And there is nothing you and me can do about it. Our position as consumers is like that frog being boiled so slowly, it doesn’t even realise what is happening.

[ads295]

I think a simple solution at least for these low-running cars is to separate the ethanol from the tank yourself, mechanically.
All it takes is to add a little water to the petrol and the ethanol (being hygroscopic) will absorb the water and separate out clearly. Then it's just a matter of pouring it out.
There are many tutorials available online.
In fact, due to the hygroscopic nature of ethanol, it is bound to absorb moisture from the environment and separate out naturally if left in a humid area for a period of time. Since the ethanol separates out and falls to the bottom of the tank/container (owing to the inherent density of CH4+H2O mixture), it is logical to assume that rust issues at the bottom will increase, along with issues with cranking and running of engines, since fuel pumps or outlets are usually located at the bottom of the tank.
We've even had informational posters come up at petrol stations explaining this phenomenon (they clearly mentioned that fuel is now blended with ethanol which was not the case earlier) as the customers apparently came back to the station to complain about starting issues whereas they actually had water in their tanks.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Sir, it has already happened. It’s not hypothetical anymore. Here in Delhi NCR, apart for that 160bucks a liter Power100, there is no petrol of any kind from any make that is E10 or less. Everything has more than 10% ethanol. E12 and E15 for normal unleaded petrol has been the norm for many months now, and now E20 is also being sold here.

If this is the case, then its a serious concern. Generally labeling of the fuel is one of the basic standard requirement, whether during transportation or during dispensing.

And before it is being supplied to the end user, some approving authorities, from Oil industry and Auto Industry represneted by SIAM has to give its nod, That's what I believe.

[Chhanda Das]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

... changing the following parts.
Fuel Tank
Fuel Pump
Fuel Float
Spark Plugs
Rubber hoses(most of them)

Given the situation, what are the best possible and practical solutions/options one has to protect our dear old vehicles from the menace of ethanol? All this damage is with E10, E15.

As others mentioned above, both petrol and ethanol are hygroscopic in nature. So unless you keep the fuel flowing by using the vehicle regularly, there is not much that you can do with the regular parts. However, have you considered replacing the metal fuel tank with a fiberglass one ? By your own admission, your Gypsy is modified. So why not consider the fuel pump and float from a vehicle with higher ethanol blend percentage compatibility for your Gypsy ? You can follow the same route for the nitrile rubber hoses as well. That way you can get rid of the rust/corrosion issue in these areas almost permanently. I hope this helps

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Ethanol % can change from upstream and with no prior intimation. Dealers have no control on it. They have to sell what they get.
.

So any petrol bunk may dispense E20 petrol and we'd be none the wiser for it?

I've been told by other members on the forum that we'll always have a choice to fill up from E10 (or lesser/Ethanol free) pumps at every bunk. Looks like that's incorrect information.