[KrishnaMohan]

Japanese vs European Horsepower

Hello Team-BHP fraternity,

I'm KrishnaMohan & this being my first post, I would like to invite the views of fellow members over the difference in power/toque retention between Japanese engines (read Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki et all) and their European counterparts (read VW/Skoda, Fiat, KTM, Renault, Ford included).

I'm much more of a biker than a gearhead and would put forward the examples in the biking community first. Take for example a KTM RC 200 & a Yamaha R15. Both machines are built for performance & performance alone. Both sport best-in-class technologies in their segment, as in liquid-cooled, four-valve motors and 6-speed transmission. Right out of the showroom, both machines are the fastest in their class. But as the years go by and the kilometres increase, it feels like the KTM has lost its edge somewhat. On the other hand, the Yamaha feels just as fast as it did on day 1. I know it has a lot to do with the maintenance and upkeep of the vehicle, but assuming that both machines have good upkeep, the Yamaha would still feel like the one which lost less power over the years.

The main ethos of Japanese brands for the most part is efficiency, reliability, longevity and smoothness. Even when they make a performance-oriented machine, it, sometimes, may not outrun its Euro counterpart, but it will definitely outlive it. Drive the first-gen VW Vento (1.6L petrol) and the first-gen Honda City (1.5 VTec) today and you will understand what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about which machine is the fastest here, but the machine with minimal power loss over the years. I know that in both the examples I cited (Yamaha & Honda), the engines have Variable valve/Lift/Timing technologies. But still, the Japanese motor feels buttery smooth, silent, efficient and just as powerful even after a million kilometres on the ODO. Can a Euro motor do the same? With the exception of a few very well-engineered motors, most can't. The basic rule of thumb for making more power from a motor is bumping up the compression ratio, introducing more valves, make the engine components harder & lighter. I feel the beauty of a Japanese motor is that even with the added complexity of more moving parts (VTec, slip & assist clutch, etc.), it still retains more power than its Euro rivals.

But is all of this a placebo since I couldn't provide any concrete evidence of the same or is there more than what meets the eye? These are my two cents on the matter. Forum members with driving experience of a variety of motors can shed more light on this.

[saikishor]

One basic, absolutely basic difference I can make out in a jap vs eu contest is that, japs require minimal maintenance when compared to their euro rivals. Japanese machines are over engineered IMO(looking at you Honda Goldwing), and thus result in some good characteristics.

Thing with euro bikes/cars is, you have to look after and take care of them like your girlfriend. Pamper them with a lot of love and care. Preventive maintenance, detailing sessions, whatever comes to your mind in keeping the vehicle as good as new. Key takeaway IMO is PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE. Get it serviced a couple of kms before the service interval, and no one else can keep you as happy as a euro machine.

Coming to Japs, because of the engineering prowess that they inherit, they last for a lifetime or even outlast their owner(Innova, Fortuner enter the chat). Jokes aside, these machines are built to last no matter how much load or abuse you throw at them. I mean look at the number of 1st&2nd gen Activa's, old Splendors, first gen Innova's, 3rd gen City's etc are purring around town happily. These machines require minimal maintenance.

Another takeaway I have is, somehow I feel Jap machines have souls which euro machines clearly lack. I love my 390 Duke to the end of the moon and back but somehow I find it to lack a soul of its own. Ride a Japanese bike(something as tiny as an R15 or heck even an Activa) and you will understand what I'm trying to express.

[amit_snk]

Mettalergy, Japan has great prowess in this field, they can make the best piston rings that can last reaaalllly long. Very very simple explanation to this phenomenon. Many European companies used to send there performance machines/engines to Yamaha for final fine tuning to extract absolute performance from there engines.

Any body with a degree in mettalergy can put forward his/her views to put more light into this topic, most of us would love to learn more about it

[voldemort]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Another takeaway I have is, somehow I feel Jap machines have souls which euro machines clearly lack. I love my 390 Duke to the end of the moon and back but somehow I find it to lack a soul of its own. Ride a Japanese bike(something as tiny as an R15 or heck even an Activa) and you will understand what I'm trying to express.

Strange. A while ago I have thought about the "souls" of cars and felt the exact opposite. I feel European cars have soul, which the Japs lack.

Nissan GTR and Acura NSX are no doubt great cars, but I'll choose the Porsche Cayman, 911, or even the R8 precisely because to me, they have souls. (I know I compared across wide price bands).

Yes I fully agree that European cars tend to be less reliable and more expensive, but I prefer them nevertheless.

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by amit_snk

Mettalergy..

Any body with a degree in mettalergy can put forward his/her views to put more light into this topic, most of us would love to learn more about it

I don't have a degree in Mettalergy (Metallurgy) but i think you are right. Basic dimensional/design parameters of IC Engines can be found in design data book but what the book wont tell you is which metal or alloys to use.

Practically everything in Automotive engineering is dictated by material science. Them Japs know a thing or two about material science since the days of making the finest Katana.

[Small Bot]

Quick OT call out: Saying 'Japs' is derogatory and can be considered an ethnic slur. I know nobody here has said that intentionally. But it's probably better to say 'Japanese' in full.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

[Livnletcarsliv]

My 2 cents as per my understanding as follows.

I probably will attribute this difference to the attitude/culture of European engineering and Japanese engineering.

The focus of German/European engineering is on opulence, luxury, performance, handling, etc. On the other hand Japanese engineering is focussed on reliability, longevity, value for money, product lifecycle, etc. Europeans always try to give the next level experience to minimum number of customers. Japanese however wants to give the right/appropriate experience to maximum customers.

The 2 main aspects here are the TARGET AUDIENCE and TARGET MARKET. Europeans have mastered low volumes and giving luxurious experience. Japanese have mastered high volumes and giving high value. Of course with some exceptions.

Still S-Class is considered benchmark for luxury and ride quality. So obviously the focus of the company and its R&D will be more about that. What ever said and done, a S-class is any day better than a LS in terms of their purpose/positioning. Similarly a LC200/300 is any day better than a G-Class/Defender again for the obvious reasons of their purpose/positioning.

[Baristyro]

When it comes to experience, I come near the next to none end of the spectrum.

Having recently shifted to native place, I came across my grandfather's Hero Honda Splendor, it's probably a BS2 model and is atleast 20 years old.

When I first rode it, I was absolutely astonished by it's performance. The initial pick up was something I had never experienced before. The acceleration was very brisk and I was left surprised at how easily it was overtaking vehicles well above it's class.

As a token of gratitude towards this amazing machine, I took it to my neighborhood garage for a quick spruce up service. There came the shock when it drained such little amount engine oil, almost looked like black dahi(curd). The bike was performing like that with burnt up clutch plates and scanty engine oil!

After the service, new seals, new clutch plates, fresh oils, it has turned into a different beast altogether! It took me a couple days to learn how to control all this torque. It thumps! I never knew a Splendor could thump?! I never knew that out of all machines that exist, a Splendor would have me fall in love with it. I spend sleepless nights wondering how to extract more and more performance from this "commuter" class 100cc motorcycle.

So far I've given it a new chain sproket set after which the ride has become subliminal. Next on the cards is a carb refresh (new jets, slide and needle), and new shiny spoked rims. Maybe some petrol additives to clean up the fuel lines and extract more performance. It has never had it's engine opened and I sincerely hope it never has to.

I'm yet to experience a European counterpart but this piece of Japanese engineering has absolutely left me preaching their prowess! No wonder it still smashes the sales charts!

[1LR-GUE]

My opinion here -
1. In India atleast, I think the engine performance and longevity is dependent on the quality of fuel used. Japanese engines are slightly less complex (most don't have turbos, etc.), use locally derived components (whereas VAGs initially used Euro-spec continental injectors) and are better tuned for Indian quality fuels.

I personally believe this is the reason japanese cars (especially the petrols) feel exactly the same after many years.

2. Experts please correct me if I am wrong - I feel metallurgy (in cars atleast) has little role here and me thinks the Europeans and Japanese are equally matched. Case in point are the 911s. Their engines seem to loose less HP over long period of time.

3. Keeping financial and business views aside, if Japanese made better engines, then why did Toyota choose BMW and its engines for supra? Why not commission Mazda or Subaru? Also why is Toyota Gazoo racing based in Germany?

4. Take Cosworth - I think it is one of the best engine tuners/makers of all time. That V12 in valkyrie is an all time great. I am taking about cosworth here because, Nationality has no role in engine performance. It has all to do with a company's location (Cosworth is in UK - the land of racing and F1), it's tools, the data it has collected over years and years of consultations to other companies.


My conclusion - I think Nationality of the car has little importance for engine performance. It has all to do with a company having the right knowledge and tools - Japanese are masters of this business philosophy.

Thanks.

[theabstractmind]

There could be some truth. Based on my personal experience:

1. Cars - Suzuki engines do get gruff over a period of time. But, that Honda IVTEC! It switches on as good as it's first day even after some decent kilometres.

2. Bikes / Scooters - Don't have much experience here. But my ownership of RX says it requires a hell lot of maintenance. But, that Honda! I had rode a 15 year old Japanese engine Hero Honda a couple of decades ago. It was butter smooth! Even the gear shits were smooth.

Performance ignored, refinement surely seems better on the Japanese engines in general, and the reliability and longevity, too.

[karthikg87]

I have to completely agree here. I purchased my first bike an Yamaha FZ 16 in 2009. I pretty much abused it in the timely maintenance department. I once rode it for ~3 years with neither changing engine oil nor getting it serviced. Man! once basic maintenance was done it was as beautiful to ride as a new one. I still regret selling it in 2018.

My father who was completely against buying an Yamaha at that time turned turtle and wanted only an Yamaha scooty when he wanted to purchase one in 2019.

[thirdmainroad]

I strongly believe it’s the dust in India that do the vehicles in. 100000 km and they start feeling old. Whereas in Sri Lanka, Thailand cars feel new even if the have over 5L on the odo!

[greenhorn]

I'm not sure that Japanese cars have superior engineering as a blanket statement.

Subaru engines - Known to blow head gaskets
Takata - Everyone knows about their airbags
Honda - their modern turbocharged engines continue to have oil dilution issues - No verdict on if the issue is solved
Toyota - Similar issues with transition to turbocharging - their iForce V6's have had multiple reports of Wastegate issues needing turbo replacement
Nissan - had issues with their CVT's in several NA cars like their best selling Rogue
Mazda, Yamaha, Suzuki - All caught cheating in emissions scandals


I think the best we can say is that the legacy tech that's tried and tested on japanese cars are very reliable. Though you can say the same about germans too, but since the germans are always trying to innovate, it carries with it the penalty of risk as well. With Japanese cars, you get reliability, but you get cars that are technically on par with cars that the germans built 10-15 years ago.

[gururajrv]

IMHO, when it comes to Japanese, from what I've consistently observed, their approach, atleast in / for the Indian market has been extremely conservative in terms of the drivetrains provided to their line up of cars. I can barely count the number of performance oriented cars / engines provided to the Indian market. They don't want to go the complicated route of adding Turbo-Petrols or higher capacity diesels.

Europeans / Germans are a different league altogether. They go all guns blazing (VW/Skoda) where their diesels / petrols are ballistic and the builds are amazing and offer great safety too. I will not talk about reliability as it's a different topic altogether.

Reliability with Japanese are unmatchable because they are conservative always. Their NA Petrols / Hybrids are basic in nature and not complex as compared to their European / German counterparts. Everything basically comes with a price, which is at customers' discretion

My vote is for German/ European engines in specific!

[invidious]

Interesting query. But I wonder why leave out the American cars from the comparison. India and Korea may not have as long a global pedigree but surely one must compare the Maericans in the mix as well.