[TheWanderer]

My relative is currently struggling with a major issue with his TATA Tiago AMT and the company seems to be trying to avoid taking responsibility of this major issue.

The issue that he is facing is as follows:
- While the vehicle is running, the car automatically moves from "D" mode to "Manual" mode and selects some random gear. This happened few times. He immediately took the car to the service centre, but they sent him back saying it may be some battery issue.
- Later, the problem occurred again. Also, in one instance, when the vehicle was started, before even doing anything, the gear indication in the display showed 5.

Following is the message/mail he has sent to the TATA Motors and the service/customer care IDs.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I own a Tata Tiago XZA 1.2 P Vehicle from March 2017. The car has been running smoothly and properly maintained by me and serviced regularly at Tata Motors authorised service centres.

For the past few days, I have come across trouble with sudden malfunctioning of automatic gear systems (VIDEO ATTACHED). I had reported it to the service centre then itself and on a preliminary analysis they suggested it might be due to battery charge variations. But, the problem occurred again and I approached them again.
Now, after a thorough check-up they informed me that the problem is with AMT assembly unit and due to TCU complaint. It needs a replacement at a cost of approx. Rs93000/-.
The extended warranty I had taken had expired one year back. A vital part of the vehicle needing a replacement within 5-6years is a rarity and is a huge burden on the customer.
------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqn1BKzhzcw

Till now, based on the emails and tweets he has sent, there have been some generic responses like they are looking into this and have authorised appropriate people to look into this (some contacts have been provided). No concrete "good-will" measures have been proposed in written form, but orally, some small discounts have been offered.

Few points
- Looking at the fact that AMT gear box is the USP of this model and one of the most critical part, a major failure in this system within 5 years of purchase seems to indicate a major reliability issue (We typically expect the key components like engine and gearbox cars to run for 15-20 years!).
- In all communications till now, not much information is forthcoming from the service centre/company side. Whenever the issue is highlighted, only a general response is being provided, without providing any details one exactly why and how this failure occurred.
- Based on the response till now, looks like the service centre/company is trying to pass this off as an issue for which they are not responsible (and as if this can happen with regular use!) and are trying to get the customer cough up a large sum to get this replaced.

- What are your opinions?
- Has anyone faced similar issues?
- Any suggestions on how to take this forward further?

[fhdowntheline]

Quite frankly, your relative should take comfort that an AMT unit which is probably half-gen older has lasted 5 years without significant issues. We already know the precaution around even more sophisticated AT systems like DCT, and the advice to take extended warranty for that. Heck, I have taken extended warranty even for my manual Tiago. No one will give any formal assurance of transmission systems lasting 7-10 years etc. Most of the Japanese torque converter ATs do last for a long time, but the owner moves on to another car by then.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Quite frankly, your relative should take comfort that an AMT unit which is probably half-gen older has lasted 5 years without significant issues.

2017 MY, and we are glad that the gearbox lasted 5 Years without issues, wow!

What sort of manufacturers design gearboxes that have a life of 5 or 7 Years? Even the government usually take 15 Years RTO; what makes you think that the gearbox is a replaceable part?

I have zilch experience in AMT but haven't seen any DCT failing on any of the cars, especially if we talk about anything manufactured after circa 2000.

Originally Posted by TheWanderer

- What are your opinions?
- Has anyone faced similar issues?
- Any suggestions on how to take this forward further?

Manufacturers will be fully aware of issues on a particular component, and as a large brand, they should owe a responsibility. It costs much less to an OEM to buy such assemblies, and there is no need to earn money on such repairs. You should press for full or partial rebates on the repairs. You can wait for others to pitch in with their experiences first. But Emails to TATA regional offices will be helpful. Can escalate to their HQs too.

TATA should owe up and pass goodwill rebates on such cases, in my opinion.

[corvus corax]

but haven't seen any DCT failing on any of the cars, especially if we talk about anything manufactured after circa 2000

So you aren't aware of the DCT failures from the VW stable or you don't consider them 'failures' because of the propounded design flaw?

[GTO]

Feeling very sad for AMT owners. As we have frequently seen, it's not cheap (in the long run), it's jerky and it suffers from poor reliability.

What we really need are after-market specialists who can repair AMTs & CVTs. It is these gearboxes that need the most support.

Torque-converter ATs are the best for India IMHO.

I am going to write to Tata and try getting some kind of a goodwill warranty for this car owner.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by corvus corax

So you aren't aware of the DCT failures from the VW stable or you don't consider them 'failures' because of the propounded design flaw?

Thanks for reminding and correcting me. Somewhere, I completely lost it.

I meant the regular Auto transmissions (Torque converters)

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

What sort of manufacturers design gearboxes that have a life of 5 or 7 Years? ... what makes you think that the gearbox is a replaceable part?

Several Automatic transmissions have poor reliability record, and the list features several well known manufacturers. Nissan CVT, Ford and Hyundai DCT, VAG DQ200, heck even Ferrari makes an appearance with the F1 transmission.
Most US brands offer 5 years standard and 7-10 years extended warranty (but usually at prices that are enough to buy a new powertrain)

[Raj55]

Having owned a car with AMT (Toyota Aygo 2012) and having suffered many glitches and finally a total break down that needed replacement of actuator (the hydraulic part that actually shifts the gears for you), I have plenty of sympathy for any owner of cars with AMT. It is a gear box that has thankfully been superseded by CVT in Europe. AMT is like a time bomb and usually lasts only about 4 to 5 years before it fails and it is actually the "actuator" that starts hunting for the correct gear and sometimes choses neutral in the middle of a drive and then one fine day gives up altogether. Repair of the actuator is very expensive. My advise to any one is that if you do not have a local cheap mechanic who is a wizard with AMT transmission for cheap repairs of AMT, get rid of the car before it fails.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Several Automatic transmissions have poor reliability record, and the list features several well known manufacturers. Nissan CVT, Ford and Hyundai DCT, VAG DQ200, heck even Ferrari makes an appearance with the F1 transmission.

Maybe I have been living in a cave, but people justifying failure of a less than 5 year old car as it's a norm

Anyways, it will be apt for such manufacturers to duly warn their customers that designed life of their Gearbox is 5 Years and is per Global prevailing norms.

[TheWanderer]

Originally Posted by GTO

I am going to write to Tata and try getting some kind of a goodwill warranty for this car owner.

Thanks GTO for the efforts. If you have any success, please do let us know. Can pass you more details, if required.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

We already know the precaution around even more sophisticated AT systems like DCT, and the advice to take extended warranty for that

DCT is known for it's failure and I assumed that it is because of it's complexity in design. AMT was supposed to be the simplest automatic technology and I thought it would be better in reliability!
I do understand that sometimes things fail, but I was assuming that an AMT system, which cannot be abused much by a driver (as user can just put in D and drive, rest is all controlled by the internal logic) would last more than an abused manual gear box! Hope Tata can pitch in and do something based on goodwill and to keep their reputation high.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Manufacturers will be fully aware of issues on a particular component, and as a large brand, they should owe a responsibility. It costs much less to an OEM to buy such assemblies, and there is no need to earn money on such repairs. You should press for full or partial rebates on the repairs. But Emails to TATA regional offices will be helpful. Can escalate to their HQs too.
TATA should owe up and pass goodwill rebates on such cases, in my opinion.

Thanks, that was my thinking too. Hoping for a positive response from Tata.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Maybe I have been living in a cave, but people justifying failure of a less than 5 year old car as it's a norm

Anyways, it will be apt for such manufacturers to duly warn their customers that designed life of their Gearbox is 5 Years and is per Global prevailing norms.

I think we in India have been used to reliable manual transmissions, so we tend to have the same expectations from auto boxes. In the US, powertrains in the budget segment cars all have one or another known issue that will crop up at the 5-7 year old mark. Ford - DCT issues. Honda - oil dilution issues in the turbo engines. Subaru - head gasket issues. Nissan - CVT. Toyota and Honda NA engines are some of the few known reliable powertrains. Hyundai, GM and Chrysler stuff have to many things failing to be known for one issue in particular

[shivamk11]

I'm facing a similar issue in my Tiago AMT. The car randomly goes into manual mode while the gear lever stays in auto mode and also going in limp mode for a while before I can get it to move again. One quick fix is to turn off ignition and turn it on again. It used to happen once in a few months earlier but now it's happening very often and whenever it happens the check engine light and ABS light turn on. The service center in my area has said that the clutch has worn out and even ordered the part after taking some advance from me but honestly I doubt that's the actual issue. Attaching the image of errors I got from my OBD device.

If someone can help me then I'll be really glad.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by TheWanderer

Thanks GTO for the efforts. If you have any success, please do let us know. Can pass you more details, if required.


DCT is known for it's failure and I assumed that it is because of it's complexity in design. AMT was supposed to be the simplest automatic technology and I thought it would be better in reliability!
I do understand that sometimes things fail, but I was assuming that an AMT system, which cannot be abused much by a driver (as user can just put in D and drive, rest is all controlled by the internal logic) would last more than an abused manual gear box!.

I think (with the caveat of not having owned an AMT car) that the Indian urban traffic cycle of repeated signals, breakers, potholes, wide-variety in the speed of other vehicles, not to mention their individual driver skills, is to blame for the overall low reliability. While the system may be preprogrammed to shift at certain speeds to achieve good mileage, the variation in speeds from 0-60 kph for the aforementioned reasons is very high, and perhaps results in the mechanical actuator being a bit overworked. In a pure manual , one has the control over feathering the clutch and stretching the engine sometimes to avoid frequent gearshifts, especially in cars which have good low-end torque. Yes, there is a manual mode in AMT, but its not quite the same as a pure manual. Those who are long term users of AMT having used their cars in both AT and manual modes may please comment better.

[Raj55]

Most of the AMT problems are going to be related to the actuator in the AMT set up as I said earlier. Clutches don't pack up that easily in such new cars. Gear hunting or wrong gear is typical of actuator failure. When the clutch does get worn out after 8 or 10 years or so in an AMT car then it shifts the gears late and beeps a number of times letting you know that all is not well i.e. the clutch is slipping We have experienced both the problems in our Aygo that we ultimately got rid of. The first actuator failure occurred after 4 years and it was repaired involving actuator replacement by Toyota. Without warranty we would have to shell out 1500 Euros! It ran well for another 5 years and then it was the turn for worn out clutch with constant beeping during automated gear shifts. We were out of warranty then and Toyota Sweden wanted 1200 Euros to replace the clutch (requires a special tool that only Toyota has) and then retune the whole set up (again a Toyota speciality programme required). So in short the AMT is a simple concept where an actuator is used to select gear in a manual transmission car. The problem is the mechanism of the actuator itself that is so complicated and so unreliable. Bottom line for us a family with two cars, never buy a car with AMT. Now we have one Mazda with traditional automatic gear and another a Toyota with CVT, both reliable. Toyota CVT s are very reliable. You see them in their Lexus too!

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

I think we in India have been used to reliable manual transmissions, so we tend to have the same expectations from auto boxes. In the US, powertrains in the budget segment cars all have one or another known issue that will crop up at the 5-7 year old mark. Ford - DCT issues. Honda - oil dilution issues in the turbo engines. Subaru - head gasket issues. Nissan - CVT. Toyota and Honda NA engines are some of the few known reliable powertrains. Hyundai, GM and Chrysler stuff have to many things failing to be known for one issue in particular

True. The manual transmission reliability has been taken for granted by us, whereas in markets which has more of automatic transmission market share, many cars that are 5+ years old are wholly junked just because there is a problem with the transmission and owners find it too expensive to repair them.