[RahulNagaraj]

Thanks to Kenith Almeida for sending this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP share page!

I went through the forum and this post got me interested.

I've repaired the AMT unit of my 2015 Celerio myself and there is a simple trick to do it if the damage is not major. I own a FNG. AMT jerks or get jammed due to metal emery or fine dust in the clutch actuator, clutch is not to blame- I repeat clutch is not to be blamed (I have changed 3 clutch sets for resolving jerk issues, the clutch plate was like brand new all the time.

Step 1: Get the entire unit out, there are only 3 screws holding it in place, it should not be disassembled and removed else the oil spills everywhere, the entire unit must be removed as one.

Step 2: Check the colour of the oil, it has to be golden like sunflower oil, Grey or black oil means there is a need to change the oil.

Step 3: Remove the filter, it has an approx. length of 4 inches and 2.5 inches diameter, there is a star socket under it, it can only be opened with power tools and not a torque wrench.

Step 4: Unscrew the entire filter and to your surprise, there will be thick grey fluid, Its actuator oil mixed with fine metal particles from the amt unit. take a magnet and stir in it you will find sub-micron metal filing in it.

Step 5: If you do not find thick grey fluid here, then no problem your AMT hydraulics, AMT has another issue, put the filter back and go to an authorized dealer and get your AMT unit re-calibrated, costs 1003 rupees with GST. (1% of the people will get away with this method follow.

Step 6: onwards for the 99% unlucky ones) Step 6. This is where we need to disassemble the unit in a systematic manner.

Step 7: Drain the grey liquid from the chamber where the filter fits ( unfortunately you cannot buy this hydraulic filter from any authorized parts dealer as this filter was made in Collab with SIAC and Magneti Marelli and the origins of this filter are Chinese, My friend a BHP member contacted Leoshashi for the same, there is no part code for this filter)

Step 8: Get yourself an AMT oil, do not use the ATF fluid or red ATF or brake fluid ever. The oil that I use is Bantex power, Dexron-VI ATF 1 liter. In this case, you will need 2 cans of oil approx. 1.2 litres combined not more than 2 litres.

The one made by Honda is also available. It is packed in 800 ml - 1 liter red or white color container with red cap, the oil is clear in color, Bantex oil is gold in color. Ive seen some FNG's using red color ATF fluids, they gum up later. Bantex is some kind of repackaged oil, its locally available, couldn't find online links to the product page.

Step 9: Use eye protection like a safety goggle or face shield here. Open the actuator cover: It is a cylinder 6 inches long with a rubber boot on it. this actuator has a small cover at its end. The cover is secured with a circlip. Remove the circlip using the circlip pliers. the cover has a 7 cm x 4 cm square button on it. Use a plier and simply pull this cover, there is no spring behind this unit so no worries, the oil may shoot in the direction of your face, use eye protection. The plug (cover) has an o-ring, inspect it.

Step 10: Pull and push the actuator extension coming out of the boot, it is flexible and moves in and out. By doing so you will remove a lot of emery inside this cylinder. keep on doing it until you are sure that the cylinder is moving freely, there is a sensor on top of the housing, it's a magnetic pickup unit, don't try to remove it.

Step 11: Pour some fresh AMT oil into this cylinder and do the back and forth process to make sure that the new oil has replaced the old one. Seal the actuator back as it was disassembled.

Step 12: Things will get messy now, use a large tray and apron for the next operation. remove and separate the oil container and sub-assembly of the AMT unit. There are a few green coloured O rings, keep them safe.

Step 13: Once you remove the oil container oil spills out everywhere, drain every drop of oil, use rust off or oil degreaser inside the oil container, you will see a ton of emery coming out from the crevices of the AMT sub-assembly. Clean it thoroughly, use a spray like WD40 to thin out the greasy substance. The rust off I use is made by Wurth or related brand, it should be rubber friendly.

Step 14: Keep the unit subassembly tilted to allow draining of remaining fluids by gravity.

Step 15: after an hour or so. once the unit is cleared off all the fluids, grease the o rings and assemble the unit back.

Step 16: Put in new oil and reassemble the unit back on the gearbox Oil can be topped up anytime but I prefer before putting the unit back on the gearbox for detecting leaks.

Step 17: Just give ignition with the key, do not start the car. Let the hydraulic motor recirculate new oil.

Step 18: After a minute or so. start the car cycle through D and R mode. and stop.

Step 19: If everything works fine great else you may have to slightly calibrate the unit until it works satisfactory, this is done the same way as you adjust the manual clutch. The mechanic knows how to do it.

Step 20: go for a short drive and return back to the FNG, Remove the AMT unit again and repeat steps 4-6-8-9-10-11. Do not disassemble the entire unit just the filter and actuator cylinder to remove the remaining debris. Fill in fresh oil in the cylinder, not the container (don't worry about air bubbles, they end up getting back in the oil container) and fit the unit back on the gearbox.

Step 21: Take your car to the authorized service centre. and do a calibration with their scanner, which takes 20 mins costs Rs 1003 with GST, once done you are good to go. This exercise will cost Rs 4-5K if the prevention is done once you start to feel jerks, if gears get stuck then there is a 50-50 chance of overhauling else replacing the entire unit.

My car works fine, we drive it to work, a fellow BHPian is the eyewitness of all the things I improved with my car and how it turned out to give results.

[Keneida]

Hello, I just got my membership approved. Prior to approval and a mail from @GTO, I had mailed my 20-21 points overhauling of AMT steps (Maruti WagonR AMT Failure | Repair cost of 83,000 rupees) to BHP mods. I am planning to make a video of the process ( a bit busy with work ).

Also, I saw the pics posted by @rahulnagaraj. All the cables must stay in the engine bay, So disconnect the sockets from the unit, it makes process easy.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Keneida

Hello, I just got my membership approved. Prior to approval and a mail from @GTO, I had mailed my 20-21 points overhauling of AMT steps (Maruti WagonR AMT Failure | Repair cost of 83,000 rupees) to BHP mods. I am planning to make a video of the process ( a bit busy with work ).

Hi Keneida, thanks for the informative description on the whole process of overhauling the AMT. I had one question in mind. During the replacement of the fluid especially at the clutch solenoid, what happens if there is any air trapped in the fluid lines? Would it get automatically bled out of the system during the repeated gear changes or would it get stuck in the system? The bit about cleaning the clutch solenoid and replacing the filter/fluid is very interesting. But in this process I do not want to introduce air into the system or worse brick the AMT unit itself since I am sure the only way to go then would be to replace the unit.

Also I had another query in mind. Would replacing the oil in the reservoir do any good to the overall performance of the AMT? I am not able to see any pictures in your description and try to understand the location of the filter. If this is possible without removing the AMT unit, I would want to try replacing the oil and the filter, and then repeat this process until the old oil has been somewhat replaced with the fresh one. Is this possible?

[Keneida]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Hi Keneida, thanks for the informative description on the whole process of overhauling the AMT. I had one question in mind. During the replacement of the fluid especially at the clutch solenoid, what happens if there is any air trapped in the fluid lines? Would it get automatically bled out of the system during the repeated gear changes or would it get stuck in the system? The bit about cleaning the clutch solenoid and replacing the filter/fluid is very interesting. But in this process I do not want to introduce air into the system or worse brick the AMT unit itself since I am sure the only way to go then would be to replace the unit.

Also I had another query in mind. Would replacing the oil in the reservoir do any good to the overall performance of the AMT? I am not able to see any pictures in your description and try to understand the location of the filter. If this is possible without removing the AMT unit, I would want to try replacing the oil and the filter, and then repeat this process until the old oil has been somewhat replaced with the fresh one. Is this possible?

Hello @Audioholic, I am working on making a well documented procedure for TBHP. I have recently joined TBHP so it will take some time for me to get used to the interface, especially how the quotes work. So, Its a hydraulic solenoid/actuator for Maruti Suzuki. I was afraid of air lock, I had prepared myself for that uncertainty by dialing a vendor in second hand market. But upon pushing in and out of actuator the trapped air went on to accumulate in the oil reservoir, so trapped air finds a way out that's well engineered, hence In all the steps mentioned the oil stays in the system only specific bits like filter and actuator get isolated unless a complete disassembly. There are violent gear shifts and juddering if air is trapped, best way is to keep the ignition on and let the hydraulic motor do its job for a minute or 2 (you can hear the sound), while doing so keep the oil filler cap open. This is to be done with the help of a experienced mechanic.

Regarding oil change, It would not help as there is no drain plug, even if you manage to take out the oil container, The culprit is Metal Emery, The best way to eliminate it is to find a brand new filter which sadly has no identification in MS service books. I am going to write to Magnetti Marelli India for the same #Righttorepair. I am attaching some pics of the filter. Right now the method I've suggested is similar to dialysis with manual intervention through filter chamber and actuator module.

Regarding performance: The difference is day and night, I had a back to back test drive of A6 and Celerio, For some time I felt that AMT was performing brilliantly it was still apples to oranges but once you get some muscle memory from something superior like a DSG then you could nitpick minor flaws. This was when I had a new clutch and the AMT had undergone the dialysis, now the clutch plate is settled in so old days are back. Still I feel AMT has the potential if executed well.

Also, My car was from the batch of early adopters for AMT, The gearbox sealant is still present on the outer periphery of the casing, meaning it was modified on shop floor to fit in the shifter mechanism for AMT unit ( which is different for Manual transmission ), ideally the sealant is not exposed, nor have I ever disassembled the gearbox so this could only happen if the sealant was applied manually.

[vishy76]

Originally Posted by Keneida

Hello @Audioholic, I am working on making a well documented procedure for TBHP. I have recently joined TBHP so it will take some time for me to get used to the interface, especially how the quotes work. So, Its a hydraulic solenoid/actuator for Maruti Suzuki. I was afraid of air lock, I had prepared myself for that uncertainty by dialing a vendor in second hand market. But upon pushing in and out of actuator the trapped air went on to accumulate in the oil reservoir, so trapped air finds a way out that's well engineered, hence In all the steps mentioned the oil stays in the system only specific bits like filter and actuator get isolated unless a complete disassembly. There are violent gear shifts and juddering if air is trapped, best way is to keep the ignition on and let the hydraulic motor do its job for a minute or 2 (you can hear the sound), while doing so keep the oil filler cap open. This is to be done with the help of a experienced mechanic.

Thanks a lot for all this info. Your R&D is invaluable for a lot of folks on and off this forum.

Coming to this "filter", I don't quite think this is a filter to the best of my limited knowledge. I believe this is a pressure accumulator. Coincidentally, the DQ200 DSG from VAG uses a very similar looking part, and in what is another coincidence, this same part is infamous for failing for a reason very similar to what you stated. The seats where this part tends to sit get abraded and form emery which contaminates the oil. Another weak point is the rubber gasket that seals it to the valve body.









The pressure accumulator is responsible for generating and maintaining a very high hydraulic fluid pressure inside the actuator body.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Keneida

I am planning to make a video of the process ( a bit busy with work ).

Moving this out to a new thread as it could potentially help lakhs of AMT owners. Please do share the video here. Thanks!

[Keneida]

Originally Posted by vishy76

Coincidentally, the DQ200 DSG from VAG uses a very similar looking part, and in what is another coincidence, this same part is infamous for failing for a reason very similar to what you stated. The seats where this part tends to sit get abraded and form emery which contaminates the oil. Another weak point is the rubber gasket that seals it to the valve body.

Now the dots are connecting. Initially I thought that this was a poppet type filter which opened up once pressure was built in. Now, I am sure that its accumulator because the threads are similar to ones I used to see in Oil and Gas fittings. The Accumulator does store a considerable amount of contaminated oil. So the best course of action is to replace it at every 25K to 30K Km or based on usage pattern. I am trying to find the contact details of Magnetti Marelli India office in Haryana.

[Tgo]

This is an interesting post I am hooked onto. Appreciate your investigative efforts and your sharing them with us.

Originally Posted by Keneida

The culprit is Metal Emery

Keen to know what causes the Metal Emery? Is it a poorly designed oil causing excessive wear, or is it the non serviceable nature of the filter which allows build-up? It is difficult to comprehend how this little system with lesser moving parts than say, a gearbox or an engine, can have a build-up of metal emery.

I think, Hyundai’s electronic actuator based system would be more durable in this respect.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Keneida

Now the dots are connecting. Initially I thought that this was a poppet type filter which opened up once pressure was built in. Now, I am sure that its accumulator because the threads are similar to ones I used to see in Oil and Gas fittings. The Accumulator does store a considerable amount of contaminated oil. So the best course of action is to replace it at every 25K to 30K Km or based on usage pattern. I am trying to find the contact details of Magnetti Marelli India office in Haryana.

Hi, I don't think the Accumulator needs to be replaced. Instead if you perform Oil discharge function through the scan tool it releases almost all the oil in the Accumulator. After this the oil is drained into the reservoir tank from where it can be replaced. I'm planning to do this once I confirm the availability of this function on the Diagnostic tool my FNG uses. Otherwise it's MASS for this job.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by Tgo

I
Keen to know what causes the Metal Emery?...

I think, Hyundai’s electronic actuator based system would be more durable in this respect.

I had the same two questions. Why so much wear and no means of keeping the metal particles out of the oil. Also this "oil" seems expensive, why?
This is a great opportunity for someone to come up with an aftermarket addon filter and additional "oil" reservoir to remove these abrasive particles and keep the actuator clean.

Is Hyundai's electrical system (ZF Sachs) better than Magneti's hydraulic system? Did Tata move from Magnetti's hydraulic system in the Nano to the ZF one in the Nexon?

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by mvadg

I had the same two questions. Why so much wear and no means of keeping the metal particles out of the oil. Also this "oil" seems expensive, why?
This is a great opportunity for someone to come up with an aftermarket addon filter and additional "oil" reservoir to remove these abrasive particles and keep the actuator clean.

Is Hyundai's electrical system (ZF Sachs) better than Magneti's hydraulic system? Did Tata move from Magnetti's hydraulic system in the Nano to the ZF one in the Nexon?

I thought Tata still used Magnetti Marelli. The biggest challenge for any AMT unit is how it fares in the longrun. Since the AMT is designed to operate on a normal transmission, it is known that as transmissions age, we encounter various issues, like clutch getting harder, gears might become difficult to engage, clutch wear would change the bite point, etc. Hence, it is difficult to judge between two types of AMT based on how the driving experience is in a brand new car. I had this experience driving a Renault Kwid AMT which had covered 27k kms. It was horrible.

While the wear and tear of an all-electronic setup is much lesser and can be actually nil, what would matter is how powerful it is in order to adapt to the changing health of the transmission itself. If you have seen, while Ford DCT was completely electronic compared to VWs DSG which is hydraulic, both have seen their share of issues. With a hydraulic setup, generally the actuating power is higher per weight and volume. For an electric solenoid to give you the same power output, it has to be much bigger and robust. On the other hand, the electric actuators give you the capability of finer control.

Hence, both have their pros and cons, and while in Magnetti AMT you will have failure of the hydraulics, in the electric setup there could be solenoid failures as the transmission ages and work gets harder. All in all, the issue with these failures is the sort of use it is put in our traffic conditions and repeated application of the clutch compared to travelling the same distance in a much developed country with better road and traffic infra.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by audioholic

I thought Tata still used Magnetti Marelli...

All in all, the issue with these failures is the sort of use it is put in our traffic conditions and repeated application of the clutch compared to travelling the same distance in a much developed country with better road and traffic infra.

Thank you for the insightful comments. Yes, they should make the AMT more robust for Indian conditions.

According to this it is ZF, but don't know if they mean the manual gearbox:

[audioholic]

Today I attempted a change of the AMT oil on my Celerio. It has already done 58k kms and has been put to as much abuse as possible. Hence I wanted to experiment this.

Ideally we must perform Oil discharge using the SDT or any equivalent scan tool. What this function does is releases pressure in the AMT system and moves most of the oil back to the reservoir which can then be extracted out. But in my case I initially thought of getting it done with my FNG which had a scan tool. But I couldn't go there. Hence tried to do this at home.

Oil reservoir which can be easily accessed:


AMT actuator fluid was procured from Boodmo thanks to Leoshashi who found the part number and the link to the product as it is not listed in the parts catalogue. https://boodmo.com/catalog/part-amt_...0_ml-50726289/

As for the requisites, I had a 20ml syringe with a flexible hose attached to extract the oil. A measurement beaker is also necessary to measure the quantity of oil that is extracted so as to fill the same back into the reservoir.



Another important point when we don't do oil discharge is to disconnect battery and leave it for a few hours. This will naturally reduce pressure in the system and bring back a good amount of oil into the reservoir. And keeping the battery disconnected will prevent the AMT pump from running and building up pressure on its own, since it works even with ignition off and driver door open.

I managed to extract around 200ml of the oil until the syringe started drawing in air since the tank is shaped weirdly and couldnt somewhat reach the bottom. You can see the state of the old oil, which looks horribly black



Compared to the new fluid:



As far as I know the whole system holds around 450-500ml of oil and I was only able to replace half. Will repeat this procedure again to clean up more of the oil. The only difference that can be felt is that the clutch release action is a bit smoother than before, apart from that not any other difference can be observed.

[Keneida]

So Team, here is the video. On how to clean the AMT actuator and the accumulator.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!At7oafITJwc1hVUC...kTYZ2?e=74M8mx

[Mortis]

Originally Posted by Keneida

So Team, here is the video. On how to clean the AMT actuator and the accumulator.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!At7oafITJwc1hVUC...kTYZ2?e=74M8mx

Thanks. I'm sure a lot of AMT owners would appreciate it. How often would you say this needs to be done ? Every 20k kms/2 years ?

Also can an inline oil filter be fitted anywhere and would it help ?