[iron.head]

Originally Posted by vishy76

Would beg to differ. CVT transmissions are a lot more complex than any AMT out there. In the case of this user, the AMT actuator body was replaced and the rest of the GB was more or less left alone. In the case of a CVT, the entire gearbox will have to be overhauled and not many people know how to do it. Dealerships won't even touch the GB. They will replace it entirely.

I do agree that AMTs in general are garbage especially for most enthusiasts including me, but let's not make claims like these. CVT gearboxes have a better reliability record than most AMTs, but they are far more complex and expensive to overhaul and replace.

My apologies, I generalized what I have seen here in Canada. In 10 kilometers of my house there are 3 workshops that only do transmission overhauls. The average 10-15 year old car here is an automatic and these workshops specialize and work only on transmission overhauls. From replacing only the torque converter to a full overhaul they do all the repairs for half the price of a new transmission. The average life of a CVT transmission is anywhere between 150,000 to 250,000 kms and after such use spending on a transmission overhaul does not seem unfair. My 2011 Corolla S is at 110,000 kms with 2 transmission oil replacement services (only 1 is required at this mileage) and my friends tell me that it drives like "new", pulls amazingly.

In the AMT scenario, what else differs between the AMT tech and a manual transmission other than this AMT actuator?

[sandeepmohan]

These junk Italian derived (or made) AMT kits need to be thrown in the bin. A colleague experienced the exact same behavior in her Fiat 500. The car would pop out of gear. You are caught off guard! Not all of us are car geeks and look on the instrument cluster. You expect everything to work without a hitch. The car went back a few times to the dealer where they said they "fixed" the issue and it was not. She finally traded the car for a Skoda Fabia 1.2 fitted with a TQ gearbox.

There are reliable AMT gearboxes out there, mostly found on trucks. They are built to such high standards due to the loads and miles these trucks put on them. Drivers are now familiar with how they work, leading to less failure of such a gearbox.

[iron.head]

Unfortunately the new Baleno is also coming with an "AMT" autobox!

[arungoks]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

1. The hydraulic type (mostly supplied by Magneti Marelli) - used by Maruti, Tata. These are usually black boxes for OEMs. So, I think, OEM dealerships don't know much to repair these at component level, apart from repair kits agreed with supplier. For any repair that needs bit more than the 'kit', whole unit needs to be replaced. Moreover, it'll take high set of skills for detailed repair, which are usually not available at dealer workshops.

When I last spoke to MASS technician, he said now they open and change child parts inside the AMT unit. I specifically asked him if he meant the Magneti Marelli unit, he said yes. MS now won't replace the entire unit under warranty if the issue could be fixed by child parts. Not sure if this can be done.

[mvadg]

The Robotized Manual Transmission (RMT) is far less complex than the TC, DSG and CVT. (I am using "RMT" to refer to a generic AMT)

We need to know the following:

• Are the car manufacturers and the suppliers of the RMT making improvements to avoid such failures?
• Is there any way to know which version of the RMT box is installed on a vehicle?
• All businesses in India form cartels against their customers by default, is there any serious attempt by the government to safeguard customer interests by making them pay for such failures, and recall cars to replace such potentially dangerous defective units?
• Why are commercial trucks all over the world switching to the RMT, if the technology is unreliable? What learnings from the truck RMTs can be used to improve car RMTs?

Which variant (RMT supplier, target vehicle) is the most reliable in India? Across the world?

I found this interesting thread which shows that people are able to fix RMTs by replacing failed parts:

https://www.corsa-c.co.uk/threads/ea...-a-fix.482698/

I drive a Corsa C easytronic, which is great with no problems, but I just bought another one, from a friend which has the dreaded ....F.... non starter transmission fault. On reading many discussions on line, many list their problems, saying main agents are rip off merchants, many garages just do not understand Easytronic, so stay away, or quote massive prices.

So I thought I would take this car on as a project, fixing it myself, and in doing so, put it on here for some help, but mostly to take it to a fixed end, and listing everything I do on this site. Hopefully to help many others.

This will be my third project, since I retired. The first was a Renault Scenic, with Automatic transmission problems. Quoted £1600 to repair, in the end cost me £50 for parts, £50 for oil, and I bought a clone Renault Can (diagnostic tool)for £150 which I later sold for £100. So that job cost me £150 quid and a couple of days spread over 2 weeks. My last project was a Ford Fusion Durashift, told to scrap it,(car was worth well over £2000) in the end cost me £340 quid and 3 or 4 days messing around spread over 4 weeks. I did a full spread about the Fusion on the Ford site, and I would Like to do the same here with the Corsa.

Shows that our businesses need the right incentives to persuade them to go the repair route, rather than the easy and profitable replace route.

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by arungoks

When I last spoke to MASS technician, he said now they open and change child parts inside the AMT unit. I specifically asked him if he meant the Magneti Marelli unit, he said yes. MS now won't replace the entire unit under warranty if the issue could be fixed by child parts. Not sure if this can be done.

Thanks for the update. However, am I thinking too much when I say, this is done only in case of 'units under warranty', where cost is borne by the OEM or supplier. But for 'units out-of-warranty', full unit is replaced as its billed to customer.

May be I am getting paranoid.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by Contrapunto

AMT is one of the most frankentein technologies out their- the worst of both worlds in the long term. I always recommend to family and friends that they are better off with a good pre-owned auto (TC/ CVT) that these flaky, failure prone AMTs.

Unfortunately word-of-month advice stand no chance against slick advertisement and pressure from family members who desire a "new" car. All of them ignored my advice of course :-)

Are you sure? People don't buy TC, DSG and CVT automatics because of poor efficiency and/or high initial costs. You will find many horror stories about TC, CVT and DSG automatics here on TBHP. Because of the low initial cost, many more people (relatively) have bought AMT automatics and therefore many more stories about their failures. I could not even find a MASS that would change the ATF in my Astar a few years ago. People have abandoned their TC automatic cars after a failure, because no one will touch them.

I don't know if Indian consumers will be able to force manufacturers into making more reliable AMTs and into making their makers improve their driving characteristics. But given enough time, money and other pressures, I am sure the AMT can be improved to rival the other automatics.

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by mvadg

Because of the low initial cost, many more people (relatively) have bought AMT automatics and therefore many more stories about their failures.

Correct. AMT sales have far exceeded the other automatics. And higher the sales number, higher are the reported issues. Though in terms of PPM or % it may be far less. It's my gut feeling, I don't have data to support this hypothesis.

[tharian]

I wonder if driving in manual mode will increase the life of any of the AMT parts.
The other day I was driving my month old AMT WagonR in traffic and realized it keeps changing gears between 1-2 a lot, which was not necessary. Keeping in mind that the gearbox is the same manual gearbox and so is the clutch, maybe this is affecting the reliability.
By using the manual mode, the gear will stay in 1st without having to shift between 1 and 2 and every two seconds.

Having said that, I feel this technology is not for highly congested roads and is something which if understood on how to be used, can be reliable.

[iron.head]

Maruti and few other manufacturers (mostly influenced by Maruti's way of doing business) often discount on features/better quality/technology for a minor save in cost per vehicle. The large volume translates to a higher saving but that number does not concern the customer as significantly.

The entire discussion on making AMT more usable/repairable is futile if it gets determined that the impact to the customer is 10,000 bucks (and 10x repair expense later). Keeping in mind the additional cost of outsourcing AMT components Vs. manufacturers probably having acquired all the know how to build CVTs in house.

IMO Maruti is the flagbearer of destroying the entire market with volume roll-outs of sub-standard products/technology/practices for saving pesky amounts per vehicle. #Rant

Unrelated thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...r-failure.html

[MaheshY1]

One of my contacts running a used Alto K10 AMT faced this issue. I asked him to escalate it to wherever necessary. I wanted him to highlight the following things when escalating:
1. that the price of repair of AMT is way more than a new AMT itself. AMTs carry a 50k premium over manual
2. If this is a common problem then why Maruti don't offer a child part for this
3. A brand known for reliability and democratizing automatics can't run away when the technology fails and make it a cash cow

He didn't have to go this far. While the child part is still not available, AFAIK, the issue was resolved for 12 - 13k. He then bought a new Nexon petrol AMT. He wants an automatic now in his car; no matter what kind.

The dealerships are probably replacing the whole thing because:
1. it's easier (Less labour effort)
2. it makes more money

I'd rather pay twice the actual labour cost than suffer the full part replacement just so the dealer could make 5k more.

-----
About AMT Automatics: I'm a big fan of the technology. It follows the Pareto's principle quite well and does most of what I expect from it for a nominal cost.

DCTs have such poor reliability record that VW group pulled it from affordable cars. Ford replaced it with TCs in EcoSport.

The fluid coupling in the TCs saps power and efficiency, especially in crawling and stop-and-go traffic. Basically, it'll suck your tank dry if you use it in the conditions for which you're buying it. CVTs and AMTs are my go-to automatics.

TC ATs have had billions of miles to refine the technology. AMTs are fairly new. They deserve some time to polish out the issues. AMTs also deserve credit for making automatics, in general, acceptable in India.

About TC Automatics
Spending additional 50-80k upfront for a TC doesn't guarantee a smooth ownership experience. It has poor efficiency. And if you have to take it for running repairs, it'll become even more difficult for us to say that the repair is overpriced. After all, so is the technology and the hardware. I've driven the Brio TC AT and I found it extremely difficult to get it to select the gear I want. With the Nano AMT, K10 AMT, Nexon AMT, my experience was far better in terms of gear selection - be it for sedate driving or for a quick boost to overtake.

Considering the efficiency losses and opportunity cost, I'll happily buy the AMT even if it adds some repair bills during the ownership. What I can't digest is paying 65 - 70k for AMT. 55k is the sweet spot for me.

About ACMT
The ACMT (auto clutch manual) with turbo engine seems like the perfect compromise and a good combination. Low cost. Change gears manually. Let the electronics deal with the clutch modulation in traffic. No efficiency penalty.

Turbo-diesel with ACMT is my dream combination.

[condor]

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

1. that the price of repair of AMT is way more than a new AMT itself. AMTs carry a 50k premium over manual

Good point !

While the child part is still not available, AFAIK, the issue was resolved for 12 - 13k.

Can you get details of what was done ? Will help the person in question, and may be if anyone else comes across this issue.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Thanks to Kenith Almeida for sending this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP share page!

A video with subtitles would be of immense help.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by RahulNagaraj

Thanks to Jaideep Singh for sending this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts

The service advisor at Surakshaa Bommanahalli just told me that they do open up the actuator for repairs - both for under warranty and out of warranty cars. I guess this customer was cheated by his MASS.