[agambhandari]

Introduction


As I have been getting deeper into coding cars recently, I have gotten more used to the diagnostics side of the many available programs as well. For VAG cars, the easiest to use option is VCDS (Ross Tech LLC, PA, USA). The main advantage being that it combines most of the important diagnostics and coding options in one app in a more user friendly fashion.
And as can be seen on the forum, the DQ200 still seems to send shocks through the spines of many uninitiated (as it used to for me as well). But with a good number of enthusiasts considering to get a pre owned GT TSI DSG and an updated version of the DQ200 now on offer with Taigun/Kushaq, it continues to remain a relevant topic of discussion (more so on this forum as compared to the General Market).

The original issue with mechatronics has been more or less sorted in newer cars (2014 onwards) but the clutches do still seem to wear out faster than expected for a Dual Clutch gearbox. Wearing it out isn’t unexpected(it is a wear and tear part after all) but doing so at not very high mileage (at 50-60k Kms on the Odo) is disappointing and is currently the only Achilles heal of this fantastic piece of machinery.
So the premise of this thread is obvious, how to check the state of the DQ200 clutches in any given car. Present and Past. This would be useful for any curious owner or a potential buyer of a used car with this gearbox (GT TSI is an eternal forum favourite). Let’s Dive in!

Measuring Blocks

With the car stationary, engine running but in P or N. In VCDS, open the Auto Trans Module (02-Auto Trans) and open Measured Value Blocks. These are the various parameters that are available for monitoring for the purpose of Diagnosis by VAG technicians. But the biggest issue is that most are unlabelled and you could spend potentially hours figuring out which ones are important and how to go about interpreting them. This is where the Self Study Program (SSP-94) linked below helped me out. Only thing you need to know is that the two clutches are labelled K1 and K2.



The last 2 points are the most important for us.
“The state of the clutch K1 can be determined by reading the MVB 95-97, whereas the state of the clutch K2
can be determined by reading the MVB 115-117 .It is possible to determine the current position of the adjuster
for K1 in the MVB 91 and for K2, in the MVB 111 “
So for Clutch K1 the following values need to be monitored.


So how does it look like on VCDS? Here is a snapshot of the readings from my 2019 GT TSI, currently done around 18k kms.



“95.1 minus 97.1 must be greater than 2 mm,
Due to insufficient clutch play, shifting of the input shaft occurs. (This will be entered in the fault memory.)
See example No. 2 and a low difference in value of the blocks 95.1 minus 97.1.
97.2 minus 96.3 must be greater than 1 mm,
At a lower value the maximum torque is not transmitted and a clutch slippage occurs. The vehicle may start to jolt
when driving in higher gears or when accelerating. (This will be entered in the fault memory) “

for Clutch K2 the following values need to be monitored.



115.1 minus 117.1 must be greater than 2 mm,
Due to insufficient clutch play, shifting of the input shaft occurs. (This will be entered in the fault memory.)
See example No. 2 and a low difference in value of the blocks 117.1 minus 115.1.
117.2 minus 116.3 must be greater than 1 mm,
At a lower value the maximum torque is not transmitted and a clutch slippage occurs.The vehicle may start to jolt
when driving in higher gears or when accelerating (This will be entered in the fault memory)


As can be seen, the values seem to be well within the normal limit and much higher than the 2 mm and 1mm as described. From my observation of about 10 DQ200 equipped cars, these calculated values approach the 2mm and 1mm as the Odo of the car increases but remains Within Normal limits if the clutches are engaging properly and the Gearbox working normally. Thus a higher value of these readings indicates a potentially longer clutch life remaining from the time of measurement. But definitely a car driven on highway for 50k kms would have lesser wear on the clutch as compared to a car that has done the same mileage in city with peak traffic, so don’t judge the car purely based on the odo.
Also MVB 235-244 and 245-254 can be checked to see any previously recorded fault.

Bonus MVB
Just an interesting tidbit visible in the system is the number of times the clutches have been engaged in the lifetime of the car. Maybe so that you can be happy about the fact that you have an AT and your left leg can thank you for sparing it.

[agambhandari]

Closing Thoughts



DQ200 clearly isn’t for everyone. I still maintain that I probably would have bought an MT TSI Polo( if it were available at the time I bought it ) purely to avoid it. But living with it for nearly 3 years now I would not have it any other way. The shifts are faaast when you need them to be and imperceptible when you want them to be. It is a better gearbox than most of us would be at working a Manual. And this gearbox is a big part of the exciting puzzle that is the GT TSI. It rows through gears like nobody’s business and that’s what makes the car feel fast(er than it probably is). This is something that has gone missing in the newer Polo TSI AT with the torque converter Aisin Gearbox. I also test drove the Kushaq 1.5 DSG and while I was quick to complain that the engine in it is just too linear compared to the 1.2 TSi, I’m glad to share that the DSG was still as snappy as it is in the Polo.

A well maintained GT TSI is a great entry point for most enthusiasts and I have shared this info on the forum so as to shed some light onto the unkown. and to dispel the fears that many have about buying a car with one. With the mechatronic unit now being more reliable, the days of randomly being stranded are definitely behind us and the Clutch pack is the only real thing to keep a note of. And Even when it does eventually Pack up (sorry for the Pun ) , replacement parts are readily available and can be done by an experienced installer as documented by a good friend and fellow Bhpian Viraat13 here (DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI).

P.S. And do install those paddle shifters that you are thinking about! Its probably the most Fun Mod that can be added to this car. I can’t imagine driving my car without it now.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[androdev]

Fantastic post. Can be very valuable to anyone thinking of buying used cars equipped with this gearbox - not just humble Polo. Dual clutch transmission really fascinates me and I read every word of your post. No gearbox is more exciting to drive than a properly programmed dual clutch ones and DQ200, for all its shortcomings, is one of the best in business. On a Polo, it feels incredible. Like you said, paddles are a must for an enthusiast.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by agambhandari

DQ200 clearly isn’t for everyone.

....

And Even when it does eventually Pack up (sorry for the Pun ) , replacement parts are readily available and can be done by an experienced installer as documented by a good friend and fellow Bhpian Viraat13 here (DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI).

P.S. And do install those paddle shifters that you are thinking about! Its probably the most Fun Mod that can be added to this car. I can’t imagine driving my car without it now.
Attachment 2220950

Great thread Agam!

I'd explored all these details while I was working on my car but I wasn't able to dedicate the time needed to fully understand it. Of course, in my case I had already physically seen the state of the clutch pack, so there was nothing more to learn.

Anyway, I don't think you have to worry about clutch failure on your car. Your low running isn't going to cause problems for the rest of your ownership period.

[abhishek46]

Wonderfully researched & helpful thread!

The wearing out of the clutch pack of even a normal MT Gearbox at 50K Kms, is not at all surprising. It all depends on usage conditions.

The real differentiator here is the cost.
Replacing the Clutch & Flywheel of a normal MT hatch cost between Rs15-25000.
The same replacement on the DSG is supposedly expected to cost around Rs1lakh (If done at VW Service).

[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by androdev

Fantastic post... I read every word of your post. No gearbox is more exciting to drive than a properly programmed dual clutch ones and DQ200, for all its shortcomings, is one of the best in business. On a Polo, it feels incredible. Like you said, paddles are a must for an enthusiast.

Thanks for your kind words, I have a TCU remap as well on my car which has corrected the overly jerky nature of this gearbox in S mode and hopes to correct the overheating issue in b2b traffic. Lets see how it pans out in the long run.

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Great thread Agam!

I'd explored all these details while I was working on my car but I wasn't able to dedicate the time needed to fully understand it. Of course, in my case I had already physically seen the state of the clutch pack, so there was nothing more to learn.

Anyway, I don't think you have to worry about clutch failure on your car. Your low running isn't going to cause problems for the rest of your ownership period.

Haha, thanks. Yes im not worried about the clutch failure, just ended up going deep into vcds and found something interesting to share.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

Wonderfully researched & helpful thread!

The real differentiator here is the cost.
Replacing the Clutch & Flywheel of a normal MT hatch cost between Rs15-25000.
The same replacement on the DSG is supposedly expected to cost around Rs1lakh (If done at VW Service).

Agreed, that's why a good FNG can definitely save your butt in these situations, with a good 30-40 percent savings on these prices.

[lordrayden]

Brilliant write up!

To the point of the DSG gearbox being more reliable now; While we do have loads of horror stories about DSG gearbox failures. Looking at it anecdotally, it seems that most of these stories are from older models of VW cars. Does anyone know of newer models of VW cars with the DQ200 having gearbox failures?

[anarchy_99]

Your clutch 1 engagement count is 3 times of your clutch 2.
Seems abnormal to me.

[anandpadhye]

Awesome information Agam

Among other things, number of times clutch 1 and 2 engaged is a nice data - I had always wanted to track this to see how much strain my left leg/knee has sustained over last 15 years of driving Do they also log the number of times each gear has been engaged?

[Whiteburner]

My Vento dsg seems to be stalling more frequently now a days and I'm expecting clutch is worn out considering the 2 lakh kms odo. Any help appreciated and also changed battery to amaron recently

[jinojohnt]

Wow! I was just reading through the below link to understand what additional data can VCDS read compared to OBD-II.
https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-vc...wner-needs-it/
One constraint is that the VCDS is generally VIN locked, meaning you can diagnose only one or two cars with a single VCDS. "Unlimited car" VCDS is available, but prohibitively expensive (only workshops may be able to afford it).
Is a similar tool for simple cars available? Would have been great to have an OBD like tool to diagnose the condition of clutch bands of regular Torque converter Automatics.

[aadiaksh]

In my Ameo 1.5 TDI DSG, on starting the car and enganing gears, there is a lag of 2 to 3 seconds from engagement to power delivery. I have brought this up to VW SA and he says all the parameters are within tolerance and only clutch setting is required. He says there is only 1mm difference and it is within tolerance. Now I know what it means. Thank you.

However, I still ask, is the lag between engagement and power delivery normal? It was not the case when the car was new.

And if it is not normal, what to do?

Note: I've already had one flywheel replacement under warranty (around 60K) and another one scheduled again under extended warranty (around 105K).

[nirvpanch15]

Amazing write up @Aman !! Super helpful !!

I am itching to buy a pre-owned Skoda Octavia 2019 1.8 TSI AT with same DSG gearbox. It has around 40K on the ODO and its Petrol.
Just a disclaimer, I know nothing about Cars in general and you may find some of the questions rookie.

Just wanted some questions answered from experts here

1. Will this request be entertained by Skoda authorized service center If I were to just walk in the service center on any day ?
2. In worst case scenario, if I have to replace Clutch, will it last almost same kilometers or similar if not ( of course if driven carefully ) as original clutch. Basically, I want to understand if the genuine parts are as good as the factory ones.
3. What other diagnostic parameters should I check before making buying decision which may help me identify the potential future expenses ?
4. As this is BS4 engine and I plan to keep this for good 5-6 years at least, will there be any issues using 20% ethanol Fuel on this engine ?
5. What are the immediate expenses should i expect considering it has done 40K kms? I am hoping its not tampered and reading is genuine but would be happy to learn if there are any techniques which can be used to detect ODO tampering as well.

[AsphaltNomad]

Originally Posted by agambhandari

This would be useful for any curious owner or a potential buyer of a used car with this gearbox (GT TSI is an eternal forum favourite). Let’s Dive in!

Great thread! Thanks for the comprehensive info provided. I drive a 2016 Octavia equipped with DQ200 and relatively low running (55k done so far). Could you provide some pointers on what to look for when buying VCDS? I do not intend to do any coding just try to learn more about the car.