[Altocumulus]

Not going into the technical aspects, if the coolant not being changed is the reason given for warranty being void, they should not have approved your extended warranty. If they did they should honor it else refund the money you paid for it. Push for the latter now since you have anyways moved to an FNG.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

Do you see the shiny spots on the bak of the pulley. These spots will show that it was torqued correctly.

I could not figure out much but could see the spots covered in grease. Not sure what to make of it.

Originally Posted by Indiguy

But of course, the service center is reneging on the warranty claim and the reasons given are absolutely unbelievable. My daily drive is a 5.4L 4x4 in the middle east, didn't change the coolant for 9 years / 100,000 kms, just topped up. When a coolant hose burst recently, i lost half the coolant, topped up with tap water and drove for 3 months in 40 to 50 deg C ambient before replacing the coolant, and the engine temperature never budged from normal.

I'd put all the facts on paper, ask a Lawyer to draft a letter brimming with legal jargon and demand that the car be repaired under the warranty within 7 days, failing which you would have it repaired elsewhere reserving the right to claim all costs through the appropriate forum. If the letter won't bear results, go ahead with repairs while keeping records of all costs, and subsequently take a decision on pursuing the matter through the consumer courts.

I have waited for them for more than 2 weeks now, though I did not send any mail / letter drafted by a lawyer. But I am thinking of getting it drafted now saying we waited for this long and went ahead with repairs. Haven't discussed it yet with any lawyer, will keep you posted on this once I do.

Originally Posted by Altocumulus

Not going into the technical aspects, if the coolant not being changed is the reason given for warranty being void, they should not have approved your extended warranty. If they did they should honor it else refund the money you paid for it. Push for the latter now since you have anyways moved to an FNG.

Yes this is my next plan, will be shooting a mail to their heads tomorrow. Since they claim this to be coolant issue and if they knew a coolant would cause major issues like this then why did they even approve the warranty only to deny repairs under it later, will be my question.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by prguru

I could not figure out much but could see the spots covered in grease. Not sure what to make of it.
Attachment 2143824

Looks like your pulley bolt has not been torqued correctly or the mechanic forgot to tighten it at all. That is also the reason your seal leaked. The timing belt sprocket has just to move out a few millimeters to clear the oil seal. Perhaps 2 or 3 mm. On my car it clears in about a millimeter.

Has the timing belt ever been replaced? Looks like you have been driving for some time with a loose bolt.
Have him pull out the sprocket and and show you the swelling of the seal. There will be none. This damage to your car is clearly not your fault at all. Tell them to fix it with no discussions. If he does not seek legal advice.
You are lucky they gave it all to you in writing. Renault is looking at some bad publicity. Better still if you get a journalist interested in writing a piece about it and apply pressure.
Anybody can sell cars and run a workshop but their real skills show in customer service.

Something similar happened to me last summer. My timing belt was replaced in December and while on holiday my fan belt snapped causing some damage inside the engine bay. The rollers and tensioner were damaged.The local VW dealer fixed it for me for which I paid 1400 euros

2 months later it happened again and this time I noticed that the servo pulley was mounted inside out.

My VW dealer took responsibility and replaced the belt again free of charge and paid me my 1400 euros back.
There was no discussion. They just told me that they will reimburse me and fix it and they did.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

Has the timing belt ever been replaced? Looks like you have been driving for some time with a loose bolt.

Yes it was replaced about 10k kms ago at the A.S.S as per their service schedule.

Have him pull out the sprocket and and show you the swelling of the seal. There will be none.

Will check this but there was some oil residue on the pulley. If the seal is intact it will tell a different story then. I got the car out of A.S.S and decided to get it fixed from a trusted F.N.G. Even mailing to top leaders at Renault did not make a difference and all they did was to forward my mail to the same service manager who went about the same story again and I did not want to waste anymore time. They did not give me in writing or email but I have the recording of two of their SA's and their Service Manager also repeating the same story and trying to convince me to drop pursuing for warranty claim and shooting mails to their bosses.

If any lawyers are reading this please DM me, need some information.

My VW dealer took responsibility and replaced the belt again free of charge and paid me my 1400 euros back.
There was no discussion. They just told me that they will reimburse me and fix it and they did.

There it is a different story and the laws are very strict and fines hefty ! Here customers are taken for granted. I am disappointed at Renault's apathy towards a customer with a valid case, they did not even bother to assign an expert mechanic to look into it or have a Renault mechanic talk to me to understand the problem.

[prguru]

Update :

The FNG gave me this plan of looking for a good used part and if that is not available he said he will order for a new one ( 15 days waiting period ) but luckily he was able to find a good shaft of the exact specification ( 110 PS, 6 speed gearbox ) which fit perfectly.

Got the replacement parts i.e the crank shaft and its pulley.
Left side image is old pulley and the right side one is new ( used one )

Attachment 2146324

The below image shows old cam shaft and the new one on the right.


The below image shows the lower engine block with the new cam shaft and the older camshaft kept at the top. There was no damage to the pistons or to the valves which came as a good news for me as it saves me additional cost and time.



Based on everybody's comments and what I have seen, this is what could have happened causing the timing to slip:

• The bolt (as in the below picture) to secure the timing pulley was not properly tightened / torqued
  
  
• As a result the pulley pin got loosened and moved backwards slightly and in due course of time and upon constantly hitting the crank shaft the pin wore out and it widened the groove on the crank shaft causing the timing to slip

The story cooked up by the A.S.S

Oil seal bulged due to heat and engine oil fell on the timing belt causing timing to jump

My observation : The crank shaft is held in place firmly by three things marked below and it cannot just slip if some amount of oil falls on it. Shaft moves horizontally and parallel to the ground and oil seal is on the crank shaft and it will not trickle down drop by drop when the car is parked etc

• Bolt, marked 1 in the below picture
• Pulley pin marked 2 in the below picture
• Toothed timing belt marked 3 in the picture

Please note : this image was taken from the internet and not from my car. A bigger pulley which holds the drive belt will sit above the timing pulley and one bolt will hold both drive belt pulley and timing pulley.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by prguru

Update :

The FNG gave me this plan of looking for a good used part and if that is not available he said he will order for a new one ( 15 days waiting period ) but luckily he was able to find a good shaft of the exact specification ( 110 PS, 6 speed gearbox ) which fit perfectly.

Got the replacement parts i.e the crank shaft and its pulley.
Left side image is old pulley and the right side one is new ( used one )
Attachment 2146323
Attachment 2146324

The below image shows old cam shaft and the new one on the right.
Attachment 2146325

The below image shows the lower engine block with the new cam shaft and the older camshaft kept at the top. There was no damage to the pistons or to the valves which came as a good news for me as it saves me additional cost and time.

Attachment 2146326

Based on everybody's comments and what I have seen, this is what could have happened causing the timing to slip:

• The bolt (as in the below picture) to secure the timing pulley was not properly tightened / torqued
  Attachment 2146329
  
• As a result the pulley pin got loosened and moved backwards slightly and in due course of time and upon constantly hitting the crank shaft the pin wore out and it widened the groove on the crank shaft causing the timing to slip

Attachment 2146327

The story cooked up by the A.S.S

Oil seal bulged due to heat and engine oil fell on the timing belt causing timing to jump

My observation : The crank shaft is held in place firmly by three things marked below and it cannot just slip if some amount of oil falls on it. Shaft moves horizontally and parallel to the ground and oil seal is on the crank shaft and it will not trickle down drop by drop when the car is parked etc

• Bolt, marked 1 in the below picture
• Pulley pin marked 2 in the below picture
• Toothed timing belt marked 3 in the picture

Please note : this image was taken from the internet and not from my car. A bigger pulley which holds the drive belt will sit above the timing pulley and one bolt will hold both drive belt pulley and timing pulley.

The bolt is tightened with some serious torque. You can also ask him to use some LockTite thread locker in liquid for or better still with their locking tape.
Hope you car gets a clean bill og health soon without emptying your wallet.

[Tgo]

Originally Posted by prguru

My observation : The crank shaft is held in place firmly by three things marked below and it cannot just slip if some amount of oil falls on it. Shaft moves horizontally and parallel to the ground and oil seal is on the crank shaft and it will not trickle down drop by drop when the car is parked etc

• Bolt, marked 1 in the below picture
• Pulley pin marked 2 in the below picture
• Toothed timing belt marked 3 in the picture

Just for better understanding of all have put up this sketch which roughly shows the arrangement of the various parts.



Correction to your observation:

• Axial movement of crankshaft is not dependent on the tightness of the pulley bolt. It is restricted by the thrust washers inside the crankcase.
• The bolt is only sandwiching the components mounted on the ends of the crankshaft - Washer, Aux. Belt Pulley, Timing Pulley, Key and the Crank Shaft (Left to right in the sketch above)
• Key is common for both the pulleys. Part of it engages with the timing pulley and a small part of it with the Aux. Pulley.
• The washer sits flush with the aux belt pulley flange and covering the key so that the key does not slide out (in left direction as per sketch above)

What actually happened:

1. Bolt got loose - due to not tightening it as per procedure when new timing belt was installed at 64k km.
2. Key moved out a bit and the vibrations aided the key to eat into the key-way (slot it sits in) on the crankshaft developing play.
3. Heat of repeated hammering of the loose key into the surrounding components could allow some oil to escape from the heated seal-shaft interface due to lower viscosity of oil in that area due to additional heat build up. However, seal is not damaged catastrophically. It is only what is called weeping of fluid - not a leak.
4. Your timing never slipped. That is the reason your cylinder head, valves and pistons did not get damaged. It is just that the enlarged key way (slot) that is causing minor timing mismatch and associated NVH due to play in the timing pulley to crankshaft attachment.

Renault just latched onto the oil in the area and said seal is damaged due to not changing the coolant. Their technicians were silent about the play in the pulley. That is something you were suspecting to be the root cause from day ONE.

So much for AUTHORIZED service under the Renault umbrella.

PS: Do not use Loctite as I saw the bolt hole has antiseize (copper coloured paste) in it from the earlier pictures. If you are using it, use the semi-permanent one.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by Tgo

Just for better understanding of all have put up this sketch which roughly shows the arrangement of the various parts.

Thankyou for this detailed illustration

[*]Your timing never slipped. That is the reason your cylinder head, valves and pistons did not get damaged.

This came as a huge relief, would have costed a lot more to replace these as well

So much for AUTHORIZED service under the Renault umbrella.

Took delivery of the car from FNG, below parts were replaced :

• Crankshaft
• Timing belt
• Timing pulley
• Auxiliary pulley
• Coolant
• Engine oil
• 1 fuel injector
• Oil seals and oil filter

Old parts from the car :




FNG has advised to drive around the city for sometime and check the coolant level and observe for any oil leakage etc. NVH level has come down though the engine sounds a bit different while in idle.


Request to owners of Renault / other cars: If you have warranty please have everything done on time ( including coolant if its Renault car ) so that you don't give a change to A.S.S to cook up some story and deny warranty like how it happened in my case. I feel they will be waiting for a chance to deny warranty and mount huge bills on the customer.

[Kosfactor]

How much did all this cost vs the Renault estimate?

Injectors are replaced as a set, was it refurbished or a brand new part?

[Tgo]

Originally Posted by prguru

Took delivery of the car from FNG, below parts were replaced :

Congratulations on finally getting the car back. At this moment the engine noise would be less of a concern than the Coolant and Oil level. Keep a close eye on that for the next 5000 km.

The engine noise I faced has gone completely. I don't remember when it happened but its completely gone now.

[prguru]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

How much did all this cost vs the Renault estimate?
Injectors are replaced as a set, was it refurbished or a brand new part?

They said they got an almost new FI and it was not a refurbished part. It worked out for less than half the price quoted by A.S.S, will DM you the breakup.


I guess a new one at the A.S.S costs approx 28K, so with this much cost involved I think they will replace individually otherwise the cost will be too high to replace a set of 4 at one go.

Originally Posted by Tgo

Congratulations on finally getting the car back. At this moment the engine noise would be less of a concern than the Coolant and Oil level. Keep a close eye on that for the next 5000 km.

Thankyou and sure will monitor coolant and oil levels closely

The engine noise I faced has gone completely. I don't remember when it happened but its completely gone now.

Nice, any idea how many kms you have driven from the time the noise was evident till now. Both are different issues but just guessing mine could as well take the same amount of driving.

[Tgo]

Originally Posted by prguru

Nice, any idea how many kms you have driven from the time the noise was evident till now. Both are different issues but just guessing mine could as well take the same amount of driving.

About 20k kms. It might have normalised around the 8-10k mark. Don’t remember exactly as the car was with dad.