[chetanhanda]

Originally Posted by Desert fox

I would like to ask,before 2000,when cars were running on carb's,we were running on header's without a Ecu re-map-Why cant it be taken at that?

because if you read the posts in sequence the context was ..

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

Stage 2) Full exhaust system from cylinder head flange onwards (not just freeflowing muffler) along with rejetting/remapping/piggyback

so as per this, why would u think of remapping the ECU on a carb system ? because ECU's are not present in a carb system.Im not being sarcastic but I think you know what I mean.
what does that leave us with ? MPFI with ECU and not a pre-2000 carb system. so if its a ECU on a MPFI its better to have a remap depending on the level of tune of the car for better use of the exhaust mods.

Originally Posted by Desert fox

And rest since for one iam confused i would request you to place the real facts below the 'Quote's'.

ok
1] remap has been answered by ananth and rdkarthik, its good to have it depending onthe level of your tune
2] 12 bhp on 1.6 engines based on dyno chart of modified USDM/JDM engines cannot be related to stock Indian 1.5 litre engines, with lower octane fuel and ECU's detuned for indian conditions
3] detailed posts with efforts were being made to differentiate stock indian from engine in dynochart to show that we cannot get same power gains here on stock. why should anyone say they are similar ... wouldn't that imply to others and negate the discussion of stock 1.5 is @ diff level from JDM/USDM to generate those BHP gains ??

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

Mods I know this may start a fight ..but I would like to disagree
I think Vip3r has created more confusion on this thread than contribution.

Boss, if you want to target me, atleast do it in a logical way, backed up by facts.

1. I STILL don't know if you need a remap for a set of headers. Then you should need a remap everytime it rains or you go to Ooty. No one has sufficiently explained how a set of headers, which can give you a maximum of 10% more efficiency, needs a remap.

2. It is a motherloving STOCK engine. STOCK JDM D15 is 134 bhp, and there are TONNES of cars running them in India. I'm sorry if the word STOCK does not enter your head, because I distinctly remember a moderator clarifying my statement earlier on this SAME thread.

[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by elf

Why would you incline towards the cone if the volume of air being sucked in is the same, irrespective of the design of the filter (cone or replacement)? All other factors remain the same - the filtration material in both is the same (K&N for example), it's only the design of the filter that's presumably sucking in more air. Which we all know is bull.

Ok maybe I didnt say it right. I would incline towards a cone in cases where the flow loss through my stock filter housing would be greater at high rpm.

Look at a stock filter housing and see how many times the air flow path changes. This amounts to significant pressure drop at higher rpms because the flow becomes more turbulent.

If you really want to optimize your intake setup (meaning neither too big nor too small) then you can do so by bench-testing it with a flow bench. I would say it hurts nothing if you go to a bigger filter.

[chetanhanda]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

2. It is a motherloving STOCK engine. STOCK JDM D15 is 134 bhp, and there are TONNES of cars running them in India. I'm sorry if the word STOCK does not enter your head, because I distinctly remember a moderator clarifying my statement earlier on this SAME thread.

ok then asnswer my questions.
1] do u think it is correct to compare those dyno charts with our engines ?
2] do u think this post for comparing swapped JDM/USDM engines ?
3] if I swap a K20 engine in a OHC in india and look at the dynochart then it makes up for 0.001% of the total OHC's in India, so does that mean OHC's in india can make similar power gains ?
why are you bringing swapped engines ? did you read my comments on the
charts before comparing your 0.001% number of swapped hondas..

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

3] if I swap a K20 engine in a OHC in india and look at the dynochart then it makes up for 0.001% of the total OHC's in India, so does that mean OHC's in india can make similar power gains ?
why are you bringing swapped engines

Chetan , no one is talking about SWAPPED engines here .. It is infact true what v1p3r has posted .. We are talking about bolt on parts giving performance gains (or in this case which dont) .. By changing the intake manifold , headers , ECU on the indian D15 you can infact get to that magical figure of 134bhp (thai engine dyno figure) rather than wasting money on other stuff like porting , increasing compression etc .. What would you go for ?? These bolt on parts or let some tuner work on your engine to make power ..

Also I dont see how one can remap a certain ECU on our cars .. The only thing you can do on the ECU (atleast most cars being sold here) is remove the limiter and thats about it .. Or go in for a standalone or a piggyback .. Which would again amount to a SWAP as you put it .. So how do you intend to remap after a header change unless you swap an ECU ??

[rdkarthik]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I STILL don't know if you need a remap for a set of headers. Then you should need a remap everytime it rains or you go to Ooty. No one has sufficiently explained how a set of headers, which can give you a maximum of 10% more efficiency, needs a remap.

On cars with a carburettors whenever the volumetric efficiency of an engine changes (mods to intake,exhaust,head,etc), it is to an extent self adjusted. More the airflow through the venturi, more the fuel thats sucked in. Same applies to ECUs that work with a Manifold Air Flow Sensor, as it DIRECTLY measures airflow...

But this does not happen on cars that work on with Manifold Air Presure Sensors or Throttle position.. The airflow is calculated based on manifold pressure/throttle angle and volumetric efficiency (VE). So when there is a change in VE due to diff headers, to extract the most power off an engine, the OE fuel map is'nt good enough. Same applies to ignition tuning as well, the curve has to change for best results.

I am not saying a remap is a must, you will have gains (not the best) with OE mapping, but for the highest possible gains, you cannot do with OE maps.

[ananthkamath]

Originally Posted by rdkarthik

On cars with a carburettors whenever the volumetric efficiency of an engine changes (mods to intake,exhaust,head,etc), it is to an extent self adjusted. More the airflow through the venturi, more the fuel thats sucked in.

I have a problem with this statement. Having worked with carburetted engines (actually, only with carburetted engines), I can emphatically say that this is not true!!!


Maybe you meant to emphasize "to an extent" more than I think you did, but fuel flow is most definitely NOT adjusted and compensated for automatically. The fuel flow is set by jets and emulsion tubes with fixed orifices which flow at their maximum capacity ALL the time, and therefore are physically incapable of delivering more fuel. You HAVE to re-jet everytime you do anything to improve vol. efficiency.

[Sideways]

Talking about air filters, I havent seen any body mention seperate filters for the breather. I don't know how much of a gain in power these provide, but it only makes sense to isolate the breather from the air intake. I am open to your views and opinions.

For the uninformed, there is a pipe which runs from the valve door cover into your intake pipe. this is known as the breather hose. This and the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve help to release excessive internal pressures in an engine. Too much build up of internal pressure will lead to engine damage and before that a plethora of issues. I will not go into details and for those interested in reading up further on the topic, I would request them to click on the following link - PCV valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now what actually happens is that when there is excessive build up of pressure inside the engine the PCV opens up and the pressure from inside the engine is released. Now this air can and will contain oil, water vapour, unburnt fuel etc. ideally these should have been vented into the atmosphere, but due to emission norms etc. they are conveniently routed into the air intake and these gases re enter the engine along with fresh air. can you imagine the amount of rubbish re-entering the engine ?

many of you must have heard the term "Oil Catch Tank", this is one of the methods employed in re routing the breather. they are expensive and are marketed as a performance / engine dress up prodcut. In my opinion it's not worth the money (some run into several hundreds of Dollars).

A more cost effective measure would be a seperate filter which can be hooked onto the breather hose. most modern CAI / free flow air filter kits come with these. I have no idea as to what the performance gains will be like, but the very fact that we are avoiding all the rubbish re entering the engine coupled with the hot air, itself puts me at ease.

Would apprecite of someone could put in some pictures which will demonstrate the above.

[chetanhanda]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Chetan , no one is talking about SWAPPED engines here ..

hmm how can anyone run a stock JDM in a Indian civic without a SWAP ?
guess v1p3r is talking about tonnes of these..see below.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

2. It is a motherloving STOCK engine. STOCK JDM D15 is 134 bhp, and there are TONNES of cars running them in India. I'm sorry if the word STOCK does not enter your head,

so this is where the SWAPPED JDM stock engines are running.. In Indian civcs..

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

It is infact true what v1p3r has posted .. We are talking about bolt on parts giving performance gains (or in this case which dont) .. By changing the intake manifold , headers , ECU on the indian D15 you can infact get to that magical figure of 134bhp (thai engine dyno figure) rather than wasting money on other stuff like porting , increasing compression etc .. What would you go for ?? These bolt on parts or let some tuner work on your engine to make power ..

where is all this comming from ? where are the parameters being changed ? when the dyno chart was posted in this thread did anyone also mention at that time it was not applicable to Indian engines ? then why post it ? what if I post a dyno chart of a "top fuel" dragster and say its possible to get 25 BHP gain with headers.
I can also say if I upgrade my engine with forged internals, supercharger, standalone EMS,intake manifold,bigger injectors, drag spec clutch , direct port NOS etc etc etc etc then I can make 200 BHP which is closer to the power of a USDM Acura RSX. Instead of porting ,polishing my Indian D15, and then applying the headers and getting 10-12 BHP gain.
so will this will prove that the dyno chart is showing power gains feasible in a Indian civic becoz I can upgrade it to 200 BHP.??

again let me explain the original context
1] dynochart for xyz engine posted
2] I argued that same gains not possible for Indian engine
did anyone mention this "Thai engine" at that time ? why this change of direction?

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Also I dont see how one can remap a certain ECU on our cars .. The only thing you can do on the ECU (atleast most cars being sold here) is remove the limiter and thats about it .. Or go in for a standalone or a piggyback .. Which would again amount to a SWAP as you put it .. So how do you intend to remap after a header change unless you swap an ECU ??

again to remind everyone what the original context was!!
question was asked if remap is reqd
answer is = ideally and theoratically yes, depending on the level of tune of the car, its "good to have" but not an absolute must . this was clarified very nicely by Rdkarthik,ananth and myself
question was not if the Indian stock ECU can be swapped or remapped ? that question should have been asked after we said "yes remap would be better".

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Then you should need a remap everytime it rains or you go to Ooty

does travelling to Ooty change your engine specs so much ? is the engine so hyper tuned so its that sensitive ?

[chetanhanda]

Originally Posted by Sideways

For the uninformed, there is a pipe which runs from the valve door cover into your intake pipe. this is known as the breather hose. This and the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve help to release excessive internal pressures in an engine.

nice idea...
I had mentioned it in my post abt TB spacers(but not along the lines of rerouting the airsupply)

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

8] TB spacers
so whats the point of this extra swirling of air in the intake plenum ? is going to help us. ?it doesnt mix a thing except maybe the vapor coming through the PCV..

also the EGR valve opens into the intake plenum.
This maybe also adding stuff into the intake along with the PCV.

[mclaren1885]

Dude , i sincerely request you to kindly take your time and read twice before you post .. Its kinda getting difficult to understand your posts .. And adding more to the confusion ..

Who even said anything about a civic here ?? The D15 is the OHC vtec engine man .. NOT THE CIVIC ..

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to warn about what bolt on parts give only MHP and what actually give out bhp gains .. Its in this context that the intake manifold , ECU of the Thai Vtec (which are sold as stock by the company and no aftermarket upgrades) engines came up .. In that case according to what you say , even changing the stock air filter , headers , exhaust would also be considered as a SWAP .. And i dont think you can achieve 200 bhp by doing any of the above mentioned mods by you certainly not on a 1.6L engine ..

We are talking about TWO SAME engines with one or two components changed in order to cope up with our fuel availability in India ..

I dont know if you know the state of affairs in India , but i would anyday prefer changing the intake manifold , ECU from a thai vtec than letting a tuner port or work on the VTEC engine .. With these changes you are guaranteed of the bhp gains .. And yes the engine specs and design of the Thai JDM stock engines (engines being sold across the globe except in india) and the Indian VTEC engine are the SAME .. Except for these parts .. And keep in mind that you aren't still opening the engine ..

I request you to kindly read the posts twice before adding more and confusing the rest .. Also please do put up facts and figures and not just arbitrarily shooting off talking about 200 bhp gains and top fuel dragsters .. For more info on the Thai engine and Indian engine , do make use of your friend .. Google .. Or search the forum , its been posted already ..

[rdkarthik]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

I have a problem with this statement. Having worked with carburetted engines (actually, only with carburetted engines), I can emphatically say that this is not true!!!


Maybe you meant to emphasize "to an extent" more than I think you did, but fuel flow is most definitely NOT adjusted and compensated for automatically. The fuel flow is set by jets and emulsion tubes with fixed orifices which flow at their maximum capacity ALL the time, and therefore are physically incapable of delivering more fuel. You HAVE to re-jet everytime you do anything to improve vol. efficiency.

I was under the impression fuel flow by jets and emulsion tubes from factory was capable of flowing a "little" more than what is needed for calculated max air flow, before they choke ...... I guess i may be wrong here.. But i would like to know, what happens when i am at full throttle, say from 1000 rpm right upto 8000 rpm? Is it like fuel flow (from the main jet? ) remains the same (max flow) the entire range ?

[Sideways]

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

also the EGR valve opens into the intake plenum.
This maybe also adding stuff into the intake along with the PCV.

Ya but you need the EGR to be there unlike the breather connection to the air intake which can be disconnectd cause it does not matter if you disconnect it. It's like an appendix operation. Organ doesnt do too much but can cause a whole lotta trouble.

EGR you need to keep there cause it keeps combustion temps down. So it's a necessary evil.

And by re routing the breather, imagine, no more sticky dirty fouled up throttle bodies, fouled sensors etc. Plus you also avoid hot air from inside the engine from going into the intake. I am sure there will be some gains, not too much though.

[chetanhanda]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Dude , i sincerely request you to kindly take your time and read twice before you post .. Its kinda getting difficult to understand your posts .. And adding more to the confusion ..

Who even said anything about a civic here ?? The D15 is the OHC vtec engine man .. NOT THE CIVIC ..

I mean the OHC, becoz my USDM civic = OHC in India
I know CIVIC is diff from OHC in india, I have an OHC in India

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to warn about what bolt on parts give only MHP and what actually give out bhp gains ..

I know , becoz I started this thread

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Its in this context that the intake manifold , ECU of the Thai Vtec (which are sold as stock by the company and no aftermarket upgrades) engines came up .. In that case according to what you say , even changing the stock air filter , headers , exhaust would also be considered as a SWAP .. And i dont think you can achieve 200 bhp by doing any of the above mentioned mods by you certainly not on a 1.6L engine ..

We are talking about TWO SAME engines with one or two components changed in order to cope up with our fuel availability in India ..

why dont you just come to the point and answer my question abt the dyno chart ?

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

I dont know if you know the state of affairs in India , but i would anyday prefer changing the intake manifold , ECU from a thai vtec than letting a tuner port or work on the VTEC engine .. With these changes you are guaranteed of the bhp gains .. And yes the engine specs and design of the Thai JDM stock engines (engines being sold across the globe except in india) and the Indian VTEC engine are the SAME .. Except for these parts .. And keep in mind that you aren't still opening the engine ..

but why go along that path.why even go there ?
thread is for saying "dont expect such high gains in INDIAN cars by looking at dyno charts of a modded D16 becoz OHC in india is not near the engine specs on that dyno chart"
dont go off topic by bringing in a new dimension like swaps and similarity to JDM and Thai engines like v1p3r

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

I request you to kindly read the posts twice before adding more and confusing the rest .. Also please do put up facts and figures and not just arbitrarily shooting off talking about 200 bhp gains and top fuel dragsters .. For more info on the Thai engine and Indian engine , do make use of your friend .. Google .. Or search the forum , its been posted already ..

why dont you read this thread from where the argument started.
step 1

Originally Posted by v1p3r

You've missed headers. I've seen them give upto 12 bhp on 1.6 litre engines.

step 2

Originally Posted by ported_head

Here is a link showing comparisons for some D series engine headers, they have dyno charts for some of the headers. Some make 10 whp peak. Of course dynos can be manipulated...
D-Series Header Comparison

step 3
my argument abt ..not expecting 12 BHP gain on indian OHC

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

ok..
lets go through each chart one by one ..and lets assume the Dyno is not manipulated for this..

step 4
now stick to the root cause of ths argument
should "12bhp gain on 1.6" and "dynochart" be posted on this thread which says "dude dont bolton headers and expect so much power"

[Sideways]

And just another question - Why have you guys ruled out lightened flywheels ? Please understand that cetain mods work well in a package. A lightened flywheel in combination with a short (close ratio) gearbox will be a superb mod.