[Turrrb0]

Originally Posted by RSR

From all this, it is quite obvious that the Venue (QX & QXi) clearly shares its platform with the K2 Verna (HC & HCi) and also the Elantra (ADi)!

I REST MY CASE!

That was a 5-star post, RSR. Thank you for sharing!

Coming to my point, although the platforms are the same and based on the K2, the differences between the two are glaringly obvious..
What is the use of our Indian venue being based on the K2 platform, when almost all of the good bits are not present.. the floor pan is nothing, and there is not hot pressed steel.
Although it is proved that the supposedly inferior K1 is not used.. they have happily brought the K2 down to the level of K1.

Not very confidence inspiring to see and I don't see any real merit in the car being based on the K2.
Would it have been possible and cost effective to beef up the K1 rather than have a cut short K2?


IIRC ford got royally bashed for exactly this during the whole K-Truss time..

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by Seenz

So the Hyundai Venue and Kia Sonet seem to have made a massive upgrade from being based on K1 platform to K2 platform (sorry to be specific QXi platform)

Originally Posted by RSR

Did I ever, ever mention the Indian Venue will ace any crash test or did I ever, ever try to prove the Indian Venue or Sonet are very safe cars???

Due to my work, I have acquired a particular taste in bodies, underbodies in particular, and chassis. I have observed the Hyundai vehicles, and others, up-close; and would like to share my observations (minus the sarcasm).

But before that some generic information for everyone's consumption (you guys may add/ correct whatever I missed) :

Material Grades :
Commonly used steel grades in Indian cars are in range of 240, 340, 440, 560, 790. Higher the grade, forming becomes difficult at room temperature and defects like spring back & cracking occur.

Hot Stamping :
Hot stamping is the process to form (shape) steel panels or sheet metal parts at elevated temperatures. It's usually adopted for Very High/ Ultra High Strength grades (980MPa and above).

Capability of Indian suppliers for Hot stamping has developed over past few years and few International players have also jumped in. So, sourcing hot stamped parts or UHSS parts is much easier now compared to 4-5 years back.

Structure Shapes :
Its basic engineering fact that shape of a structure plays important role is its performance. The most common example we see in our lives is I-section beams (which are usually mild steels).

Knowing magnitude and direction of force or torsion is vital while evaluating a structures. e.g. I-section beams are excellent in vertical loading, but very poor in sideway loading on its web. Their capability for torsional loads is limited.

Shape, thickness, material grade, magnitude and direction of force/ torsion, joining process are very important while commenting on capability of any structure.

Internal Reinforcements :
That's the area which I have seen manipulated by OEMs when they launch International models in India. Ford went a step ahead and removed even the visible reinforcement from Endeavour. In most cases, it's the bean counters that prevail over the engineers. However, in some cases, it can be an engineering decision as well.

Platform :
Very loosely used and abused term, not just on Team-BHP but else whereas well. It's a set of parameters defining a design concept/ architecture. This varies from OEM to OEM. Platform terminology has no practical significance outside and is used for aligning internal teams, engineering, production and others. For past few years, marketing has jumped onto this term 'platform' to justify everything. Heartect, Omega the LandRover pedigree, Captur - Kaptur, K1-K2 and many more.

Two vehicles having same platform doesn't always mean that everything in the structure will always be same. There can be subtle and not-so-subtle changes.

Example :

• OEM A defines a certain set of parameters as a platform for its internal use.
• OEM B defines a certain set of parameters as a platform for its internal use.
• These two set of parameters may be common, some-what common or entirely different.
• OEM A may vary these set of parameters within a range to develop vehicles for different segments, and yet call platform for these segments by same name.
• OEM B may vary these set of parameters within a range to develop vehicles for different segments, and but call the platform for these segments by different names.
• OEMs may also choose entirely different set of parameters or ranges for same segment or adjacent segment vehicles depending on various factors. In such case they definitely name them as different platforms.

Now coming to the topic at hand :

• Based on my own observations, I do agree with RSR as far as how the underbody structures appear for the mentioned Hyundai vehicles.
• Can't comment on the material grades used in various models/ versions as haven't tested those. In my opinion, High Strength Steel, Ultra High Strength Steel or anything else is just a marketing name unless the associated Tensile Strength values are released by OEMs.
• As both of you (and others) have mentioned, underbody structures of Indian versions and International versions of Hyundai vehicles might be same or not. Can't be concluded just by looking at underbodies.
• However, going by past experience, I feel Indian customers usually get raw deal. Reasons for this are many, can be discussed separately. So, I myself feel (no evidence till now), that Indian versions of Hyundai cars (and other OEMs as well) are not at par with International versions.
• In my opinion, for marketing 'global models' in India, same crash testing (EuroNCAP etc.) on Indian market vehicles must be made mandatory.

Originally Posted by Seenz

Now you ask what happened to 3 students. Well they crashed in a parked truck on the Delhi-Rohtak highway.

I sympathize with your anguish and pray no one loses life in such a way.

However, an accident between a car and a truck is usually going to end bad for occupants of car. It's just physics. Some vehicles may fare better that others, but each accident is different and multitude of factors come into play. I am not even going into the human aspects.

It is practically impossible to design and test for each scenario. The current set of tests, even Euro-NCAP, are very limited. Testing for vehicles for only few sets of conditions. That said, atleast this should be made mandatory, every life is precious.


Current Scenario :
NCAPs are not mandatory across even developed markets like EU. Only few countries mandate NCAP. It's the campaigns by certain organizations that has raised awareness amongst customers in these markets and OEMs have been forced to follow the suit.

In India, the regulatory crash testing is almost as same level as regulatory crash testing in Europe. But its the lack of awareness that has allowed manufacturers to sell lesser products in India. Recently only, Tata is trying to break this barrier.

[cy_auto_enthu]

While some members might feel that this thread is going off track but i think it touches a very important question when someone can do with leser space. The choice is 6 airbags plus a platform K1 or K2( Not sure maybe a K1-K2 Hybrid) or a K2 Platform of seltos with 2 airbags and lesser features.

it would be good if someone has the expertise in this area and can comment on which would be a better choice from safety perspective leaving other factors aside.

[kkstile]

Senior-BHPian RSR has really opened a can of worms regarding the rumours and incorrect information spread across automotive media on the various platforms being used in Indian specific versions of car models. I request the mods to create a separate thread (maybe like "Buying a new car thread") which has details of all the currently sold cars in India and the platform used. Because the NCAP results are not available for all cars, such a thread would be really useful to gauge the crash-worthiness and perceived safety.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by RSR

Now, if a roadside reviewer on YouTube says something like "Venue & Sonet are built on the Santro platform", one can just laugh heartily at his/her sheer automobile illiteracy. If a pathetic auto journalist at an archaic auto rag or a video review joker on the idiot box utters stuff like "Indian Venue is built on a completely different platform compared to the global Venue", one can just dismiss the ignorant dinosaur who gets paid by auto companies to put down a rival's product.

I always thought that Venue is made from the accent/Elantra platform because of someone I had met during the vehicle's launch but some BHPians were quoting certain sources online that claimed otherwise and my subsequent attempt to reach Hyundai to clarify did not work.

Thanks for clarifying this, Venue felt solid just like Creta and Verna.

[BashfulKlutz]

Originally Posted by RSR

Now, if a roadside reviewer on YouTube says something like "Venue & Sonet are built on the Santro platform", one can just laugh heartily at his/her sheer automobile illiteracy.

It's Time To Bust A Pair Of Mighty Myths!

Mighty MYTH number 1: Venue & Sonet are built on the Santro platform

Simple FACT: Venue & Sonet have got absolutely nothing, nil, nada to do with the Santro platform. The large 1.5 U2 CRDi simply cannot be accomodated into the small Santro platform!

Thanks an umptillion for this post, RSR sir! This was one of the reasons why despite liking the Venue and Sonet with the turbo-petrol and turbo-diesel engines, I was hesitant about them at first. The Sonet and Venue's base variants are actually very well-priced for what they offer, at least that's what I personally believe. But thank you so much for busting myths about the other platforms as well. I've bookmarked your post.

[Gaur]

Monocoque of Indian Verna (HCi) sedan:

Attachment 2057554

The above image of India Verna looks of a Left hand drive vehicle considering the steering shaft opening on the left side.



Monocoque of Indian Elantra (ADi):

Attachment 2057556

Similarly for the India Elantra, steering shaft opening on Left side

: As clarified by other senior members the Platform classification is a very subjective decision for manufacturers, each having their own definition.
: As a thumbrule Wheelbase/Track Width/Engine/Gearbox combination/Basic underbody structure are common criterias to define a platform.
In some cases even the manufacturing line is a part of the understanding of a common platform.

[landcruiser123]

@RSR - thanks for sharing. If you don't mind, can you share the source of these diagrams? Do you work with Hyundai?

I'm glad to see the very similar platforms between the international and Indian variants. I'm hoping that we see more 5* rated cars when GNCAP pick randomly for their tests.

[Seenz]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

Current Scenario :
NCAPs are not mandatory across even developed markets like EU. Only few countries mandate NCAP. It's the campaigns by certain organizations that has raised awareness amongst customers in these markets and OEMs have been forced to follow the suit.

In India, the regulatory crash testing is almost as same level as regulatory crash testing in Europe. But its the lack of awareness that has allowed manufacturers to sell lesser products in India. Recently only, Tata is trying to break this barrier.

Outstanding post! Because a spade is called a spade here. And this is why I love Team-BHP and why I have been able to learn so much from Team-BHP.

• Ethics and Business do not go hand in hand for some car manufacturers. If someone wants to have a deep look, Please read through the book 'Faster Higher Farther : The Volkswagen Scandal'. You will find the scale of corporate treachery and greed by VAG group astounding. There is nothing black and white in business world, only shades of grey. If you feel Indians are honest people and only Americans and Europeans are lords of capitalism, Please go through the book 'Ranbaxy : A Bottle of lies'. The crux is 'If they think they can get away with doing something, they will not hesitate to do that thing'.
  
  
• For the establishment of the fact that Venue and Sonet is based on K2 or QXi or Elantra or Verna platform, I have just one question:- "By what authority?" Did I miss something that we have Hyundai India official representation or announcement specifying this fact?
  
  
• Senior BHPian RSR provided his thorough analysis with evidence and most BHPians including myself agreed with his point of view. I am scratching my head how this fact was set in concrete without Hyundai India being a party to such action. The last I checked Team-BHP was an automotive forum for enthusiasts and did not decide facts about platforms of cars.
  
  
• I am constantly harping on the same fact because I want readers and BHPians to make an informed decision. That being based on Verna or Creta platform does not make Hyundai Venue and Kia Sonet safe cars. Indian manufactured Verna and Creta too have not been crash tested by Global NCAP. So their safety record is also as good as anyone's guess. I wonder why such eagerness to upgrade Venue and Sonet from Santro K1 platform to K2 Elantra or Verna platform. Is the Santro K1 platform which underpins Santro, Grand i10 Nios and Hyundai Aura such an inferior platform that it is Venue's dishonour to be based on K1 platform? Well I did not find Tata Motors providing such a step motherly treatment to Tiago.
  
  
• Obviously I will eat my words whenever these cars pass Global NCAP crash tests with flying colours. Till then BHPians or readers who think that Hyundai cars are safe, I would say more power to you. Its your opinion, your money and its a free world. Make the most of it. This will be my last post on this topic and thread.

Regards

[RSR]

Originally Posted by Gaur

The above image of India Verna looks of a Left hand drive vehicle considering the steering shaft opening on the left side.

Similarly for the India Elantra, steering shaft opening on Left side

Those were the images I could get for the Indian versions, which are clearly suffixed with an "i", HCi for Indian Verna and ADi for Indian Elantra.

The Grand i10 Nios, which is an India-specific car (don't know if it is exported from here to LHD markets), also has it on the left side as can be seen in this image:

[RSR]

Originally Posted by JithinR

Please don't take the discussions going on in the thread personally.You have put forth a counter point (with evidence) against what a lot of people myself included who believed that the Venue/Sonet are based on the K1 platform.

It would be great if even Hyundai/Kia came out and validated it (but I am not holding my breath for that to happen). So, thanks for your effort.

You're welcome. Hyundai, sadly, did not even react when the shockingly ignorant auto journalist horde and their equally clueless admirers were spreading false, laughable mighty myths about the platform of the Venue.

I did write to them for clarification when the ignorant hordes were (deliberately or otherwise) spreading the mighty myths, but I got nothing beyond an automated acknowledgement message.

Do you really expect them to say something now, when the myths have been busted? I certainly don't.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Do you work with Hyundai?

Haha! I know it's very easy to believe I'm a Hyundai employee, but I am not one! Not only Hyundai, I don't work for Kia or any other group company or associate company or dealership either.

Originally Posted by Nithesh_M

but can you let us know where you got these chassis images from for all these products? Does Hyundai publish it somewhere?

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

If you don't mind, can you share the source of these diagrams?

Yes, they do publish it on their special service website for independent repairers. It's called Global Service Way and access to the site is charged by the time one wants to spend.

The site is a huge treasure trove of information on all Hyundai models sold across the globe for the last two decades or so. Since First World countries require it by law for manufacturers to provide service manuals and other such information to independent garages to work on their cars, the site is quite popular in Europe, America and elsewhere. I don't know if independent garages in India use this treasure trove as much as those abroad.

I'm glad to see the very similar platforms between the international and Indian variants.

The platform of the QXi is the same as that of the QX, but there is a difference in the strength of steel used for some members. I've explained this in my original post.

So, the safety rating of the American or Australian Venue is not applicable to the Indian model. The Indian model's safety rating can only be determined after a test by Global NCAP.

I'm hoping that we see more 5* rated cars when GNCAP pick randomly for their tests.

So do I! I wish all manufacturers took safety more seriously.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I always thought that Venue is made from the accent/Elantra platform because of someone I had met during the vehicle's launch but some BHPians were quoting certain sources online that claimed otherwise and my subsequent attempt to reach Hyundai to clarify did not work.

Thanks for clarifying this, Venue felt solid just like Creta and Verna.

You're welcome. The initial information provided to you at the vehicle's launch was indeed the correct one!

I don't know how or when or why these mighty myths originated, but they certainly spread like wildfire, drowning out the actual facts.

Do remember that the rapidity with which falsity travels has been proverbial for centuries: “Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it,” wrote Jonathan Swift and that was way, way back in 1710.

[longhorn]

Originally Posted by RSR

What the hell has this got anything to do with NCAP or G-NCAP???

Did I ever, ever mention the Indian Venue will ace any crash test or did I ever, ever try to prove the Indian Venue or Sonet are very safe cars???

Or did I ever, ever mention that the Indian Venue is as safe as the international Venue???

In fact, I, yes, I was the one who showed the differences in the strength of the steel of some members between the QX and QXi!!!

If you are referring to my post, my apologies if you misread what I meant. I was merely replying to the general direction the thread was taking, after you rightly pointed out that the Venue is not based on the K1 platform of the Santro, but the K2 platform of the international Venue.

The diagrams you posted clearly show that the international Venue, while sharing the same platform as the Indian Venue, in my analysis, has critical reinforcements to prevent passenger cabin ingress in case of an accident, which the Indian Venue clearly lacks. Thereby, posts from other members that sounded like the Indian Venue is safe because it shares the same platform as the international Venue is simply not true. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

Moreover, the lack of reinforcements on the roof on both the Indian and international version lead me to believe that this would fare very poorly if the vehicle turns turtle, which I believe is not tested by NCAP. I'm open to correction on this, if it can be proved, but looking at the mild steel used for the entire roof, I doubt that will be the case.

Once again, my post is not intended to prove or disprove anyone, but to help members make an informed decision.

[dark.knight]

I refrain from posting on things like a) reliability b) safety and c) platform sharing, because if I have to individually respond to each misunderstanding, it'll take me too long and involve much debates, and also I believe fully that people are entitled to think what they want based on their personal experiences, right or wrong, and most of them have biases that cannot change anyway, and rightly so because unique views are the reason why just one product or brand doesn't dominate a sector, even the technically inferior/lower tier products have to sell at the end of the day. Ignorance is a democratic right and needn't necessarily be corrected.

Having said that, and having had some prior experience in ancillary car part production units, here's what we should know :

- Each manufacturer decides what platform sharing constitutes.

- Generally it does refer to floorpan, front and rear axles, wheelbase and steering shaft similarities. Not always though.

- Steel grades used can vary between platform, various combinations of mild steel, regular steel, high strength and ultra high strength may be used depending on the car engine and weight, to suit a larger car with a bigger engine or vice versa.

- Platform sharing also includes part sharing of which VW is the expert at, steering wheels, switch controls, stalks, seats etc.

- Similar car shape/structure platforms are built on the same production line. This is the reason platform sharing exists, it boosts production speed, lowers production costs, reduces R&D costs and improves quality. VW wouldn't have survived without that ideology.

Here's some entertainment for you guys, did you know the Rolls-Royce Ghost is based off of the BMW 7 Series platform? You do? How about these -

1) VW Touran (minivan) = Audi TT (sports coupe)

2) VW Phaeton (lux sedan) = Bentley Continental GT (superlux sedan)

3) Jeep Compass (SUV) = Mitsubishi Lancer (low slung sedan)

4) Hyundai Elantra = Dodge Dart

In a few cases, one model of the car sharing platform with another brand, costs 3 times the money of the original platform model. Does that mean the more expensive car is inferior? Not at all, as long as steel specifications, reinforcements and input quality are maintained, it is worth every penny.

Also this argument has been washed, rewashed, squeezed dry and hung out here for the past decade.. to those that absolutely want 5* Indian NCAP rating, buy only those models and be happy with them and don't waste a single moment wishing for an ideal combination of brand, reliability, safety, price and support, it has never happened until now and it never will.

[Gaur]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

In a few cases, one model of the car sharing platform with another brand, costs 3 times the money of the original platform model. Does that mean the more expensive car is inferior? Not at all, as long as steel specifications, reinforcements and input quality are maintained, it is worth every penny.

Many thanks for the valid points.

If I remember correctly the Tata X1 platform is the one on which Indica Vista/Manza/Bolt/Zest/Nexon are based and look at the difference in their performance level in term of safety.

Based on same platform still cant compare Vista and Nexon on safety.

The manufacturer may choose a low segment car as a parts bin to build a car belonging to a segment or two higher and improve it wherever needed to match segment requirements.
Thus a low segment car can become a platform for a much advanced higher segment vehicle.

[vsrivatsa]

Originally Posted by Seenz

We are all passionate enthusiasts here, not shareholders of Maruti, Hyundai, Tata or anyone else. However, this is time to call out cars which are not being tested under Global NCAP. We should not care even if the company claims that the structure or platform is made of Titanium or Vibranium alloy. We do not care if the car is based on K1 or K13 or even K150 platform, just slam that car into the barriers at Global NCAP and none of us keyboard warriors here will be wiser.

Excellent Post and written with a lot of humour and and the right amount of sarcasm needed to give a wake up call to the car manufacturers and shakes up the buyers as well to think a bit more. This should be forwarded to the Hyundai Group India Leadership

The K1/K2 debates has resulted in lot of off-topic but wonderful & informative posts on this thread. Given the important aspect of Safety that this particular post addresses, I would recommend for the Moderators to make this thread part of Hot Threads/Home Page if possible.