[Traveler]

Originally Posted by rahulv

I am in north Bangalore and I could not find adblue in any fuel station.

Does anyone know where to buy?

Most Authorized car service centers should have it. Contact your car dealer. I got it from PPS motors. Its still not available at petrol pumps.

[Axe77]

Guys - I feel really stupid writing this but I am completely clueless on the whole BS6 Adblue / ReGen / Highway vs City etc issues.

Is there any one place where I can get like a Dummy’s guide 101 understanding of all this. Almost every statement on this thread is complete Greek and Latin to me.

What are these different setups?
Is AdBlue only topped up service to service?
What’s the risk or significance of this?
What does ReGen mean in the context of BS6 diesel?
What is the significance of city vs highway driving? Does a BS6 diesel have to be driven on a highway every now and then? How frequently?
Is excessive city driving harmful to these new diesels?

I don’t want to bother people given how spectacularly noob like my questions are but if someone can point me to a good one stop resource to grasp all this it would be great.

Cheers

Originally Posted by audioholic

Guys, it has been a few months since the BS6 rollout and after the many discussions we have had over possible implications in the Indian market scene,
[*]How is the exhaust after-treatment handled in your car? What system(s) is used.[*]In your driving experience with the car, has the car required any manual regen? Or has it just been like driving any other car?[*]How frequent has the regen process happened and whether manual intervention was required?[*]If you have an SCR system in the car which requires AdBlue, what is the AdBlue consumption like?[*]Has there been any issues so far?[/list]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

I had engine warning light once owing to choked DPF. The car had to be taken for an active DPF regeneration at the service centre. On another occasion during a general check up before a long journey, the oxygen sensor was found to be clogged at 80% and hence required the regeneration.

The passive regeneration gets triggered when car is run at higher rpm's for a longer period. It means such rpm' s are never achieved in city limits and the regeneration will never take place and will eventually clog the DPF , and hence one will be faced with DPF clogs if car is used largely for city commutes even during BS6 regime.

Originally Posted by GTO

While some initial teething issues will be there (as Seltos owners found out), this will largely become a fill-it-shut-it-forget-it kind of exercise. Sure, AdBlue requires some additional effort such as topping up at services & a bump up in cost, but all of that is worth it when we consider the drastically reduced emissions.

I only recommend him to park a spare bottle of AdBlue in the boot, just in case.

Originally Posted by RSR

When diesel particulate filters were first introduced globally, owners faced a ton of problems with DPF clogging and regeneration issues.

We in India moved to DPFs rather late compared to most First World markets. So I guess we are getting the improved designs and owners won't have that much to complain about in the long run.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Axe77

What are these different setups?
Is AdBlue only topped up service to service?
What’s the risk or significance of this?
What does ReGen mean in the context of BS6 diesel?
What is the significance of city vs highway driving? Does a BS6 diesel have to be driven on a highway every now and then? How frequently?
Is excessive city driving harmful to these new diesels?

Given the limited resources I have, here are some brief notes on the various things you have asked:

DPF is a particulate filter as the name goes, and is used to reduce the pollution caused by soot in the diesel exhaust. Diesel engines have a smoking problem as we all know and to prevent this, the DPF concept was introduced many years ago and that would be essential for Euro 5 and later. The DPF will store soot particles in its pores, and when its temperature increases, these soot particles are completely burnt or oxidised to carbon dioxide. The increase in temperature is derived from the increase in exhaust temperature which happens when we use the car for longer distances. Sometimes when this is not possible, at least if the engine is idling for sometime, a few manufacturers artificially raise exhaust temperature by injecting diesel into the exhaust. If both these conditions are not possible, ie you use the car for short distances only all the time and never let the engine warm up, and neither idle it anytime, the DPF gets clogged over time and this will result in certain escalations.

SCR Selective Catalytic Reduction is a separate component from the DPF in most applications, at least functionally if not physically. SCR is used to reduce Nitrogen (Di)Oxide emissions from diesel engines which is again harmful. This is done by spraying Adblue(ammonia) over a material inside the SCR periodically. When the NOx gases pass through this material, the NOx gets converted to Nitrogen and Water vapor which is harmless to the environment. For this, the consumption of adblue varies based on the consumption of fuel though its rate of consumption is lesser than the fuel consumption rate.

LNT Lean NOx Trap is an alternative to SCR as mentioned above, but suitable for smaller engines. That is why in our market, it is mainly used in engines less than 2000cc in displacement. While there is no Adblue needed in this mechanism, to my best of knowledge it uses some of the diesel itself to regenerate over time and get the same reaction as an SCR system. However, it is not as effective as the SCR. But it is less complex and can be used in smaller setups.

Now, after one is clear with the above three terms, the next topic is what does your car have.
Example 1: The Innova has a DPF + SCR system on it. Adblue is needed.
Example 2: The Kia Seltos has a DPF + LNT system on it. No Adblue is needed.

IIRC there is no car less than 2000cc in India with an SCR, and vice versa for LNT. However some of the bigger engines can use a combination of DPF + SCR+ LNT(especially trucks) since their exhaust emissions are higher and of course, much more complex.

Regarding topup of Adblue: It depends. During ideal conditions, the consumption of Adblue is dependent on the usage which I havent figured out. In my Innova it is supposed to last 10k kms whereas it lasted around 7.5k kms. Since you get warned about its level very much in advance, there is practically no situation where you would be stranded somewhere. If you do not topup adblue, and completely run out of it, then the engine would not start once you turn it off after the Adblue goes empty. So even if you ever end up in this situation, better not turn off the engine and instead, drive down to a place where you can get Adblue. Well, you have 2400kms from the first warning till empty, so I cant imagine someone ignoring the warning for so long.

Regen as I had mentioned earlier, is these systems refreshing themselves. Regeneration can happen without you noticing it, like say you are driving on the highway, or in the city at a moderate speed continuously. The DPF gets hot and gets cleaned, while the LNT also purges itself clean. But the SCR does not need any regeneration as its a continuous process and does not depend on external conditions.

When are you in trouble with regen is when you never give the DPF a chance to do it itself. Lets say I take out the innova to nearby errands, and the engine always runs cold before I switch it off. There will be soot generated and stored in the DPF. And the DPF would wait until it reaches a certain level of concentration. Once that passes. it would warn the user to perform regeneration. If the user still ignores it, it would reach a point where the DPF is excessively clogged, and the service center would have to do a regen somehow. The more frequently you end up in this situation, the worse it gets for the DPF.

How to Regen as I mentioned earlier, depends on the vehicle. Some manufacturers warn you that a regen is required, and you have to drive with consistent throttle input(read as moderate to high engine speeds) so that the exhaust temperature can raise to the required level. Other manufacturers provide a switch, which will trigger regeneration and you just leave the engine idling. In the Innova, I can recognise whenever the DPF is regenerating by an increase in idling speed and the MID will show a drop in fuel economy. This will happen once around 150-200kms and will last for 5-10minutes if left at idle. While driving it would last for 5 minutes only and during this time, I avoid turning off the engine. If I inevitably turn off the engine, it continues next time I start the engine, again very noticeable through the change in idle speed. So far I have let it happen, and it has never prompted me to manually regen anytime till now.

So are diesels unsuitable for city use? Not exactly. They are unsuitable for short hops especially when you NEVER get to use it longer at least once in 100kms. Its okay to use it for errands today, and then tomorrow to go to office around 10kms away and it would just be fine. Also, if you are running the engine cold, then it is good to be easy on the throttle and in case of a manual transmission, never LUG the engine(which causes excess diesel to be injected and unburnt). That will be completely fine.

[chiranjitp]

Very informative post audioholic, thanks for sharing, clears a lot of doubt regarding BS VI diesel engines. One question from my side, how long can we expect these additional filters to last without needing replacement? Will they last the lifetime of a vehicle, like a catalytic converter, if maintained properly?

Originally Posted by audioholic

IIRC there is no car less than 2000cc in India with an SCR, and vice versa for LNT.

Slight correction, Bolero BS VI has a SCR based system & it is powered by a 1.5 litre 3 cylinder diesel engine.

A screenshot from a YouTube video:



Link to the YouTube video:

https://youtu.be/E-FpjuAOz18

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

One question from my side, how long can we expect these additional filters to last without needing replacement? Will they last the lifetime of a vehicle, like a catalytic converter, if maintained properly?

Slight correction, Bolero BS VI has a SCR based system & it is powered by a 1.5 litre 3 cylinder diesel engine.

Thanks for pointing that out, TBH I didn't even know that the Bolero comes with a 1.5L engine now. I always was of the feeling that its the 2.5/2.6L CRDE. I was outdated.

Well there were lot of hue and cry about DPF in the initial days across the world. But things seem to be ok lately. But the biggest surprise would be in India since it is the beginning of DPF and Adblue life. So we can only wait and watch and not speculate. I think as long as we use it the way it is supposed to be, and use BS6 diesel, it should be fine. And I bet it would also depend a lot on the vehicle and its manufacturer. If you have a cleaner diesel engine which is not prone to smoke, the load on the DPF is also less and such an engine with a DPF above its required capacity would be fantastic. Next comes maintenance aspects which could cause excessive soot such as a clogged air filter, faulty injector etc. Only long term ownership can tell.

[LONG_TOURER]

So my 2020 Tucson finally showed 'Low Urea' level on my instrument cluster and the car has so far clocked 7561kms. Since the due service is around 2.5k kms away, i thought of filling DEF all by myself. Now my question is should i fill the urea tank with Tata motors make DEF or should i go to hyundai ASS to get the DEF refilled ?

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by LONG_TOURER

So my 2020 Tucson finally showed 'Low Urea' level on my instrument cluster and the car has so far clocked 7561kms. Since the due service is around 2.5k kms away, i thought of filling DEF all by myself. Now my question is should i fill the urea tank with Tata motors make DEF or should i go to hyundai ASS to get the DEF refilled ?

DEF is like petrol/diesel. You can fill it of any brand. The composition is the same. In Europe and America, there is a dedicated dispenser for DEF in fuel pumps. Here manufacturers price their DEF based on their brand value.

So yea go ahead and fill the tata brand DEF

[LONG_TOURER]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

So yea go ahead and fill the tata brand DEF

Thank you for your quick response, i am going to fill her up tommorow and see if there is any difference in performance or exhaust note. Should do fine i guess.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by LONG_TOURER

if there is any difference in performance or exhaust note.

Yea, the exhausts gases will feel very bad after being treated with a competing TATA brand instead of Hyundai

Should do fine i guess

Obviously. Thankfully, these car manufacturers are not in the fuel retail business else, Skoda would have voided the warranty had we not filled at VW pump

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by LONG_TOURER

Thank you for your quick response, i am going to fill her up tommorow and see if there is any difference in performance or exhaust note. Should do fine i guess.

There wont be any difference in either. The only difference you will note in case of a bad quality DEF is a warning light on the instrument cluster if the DEF is not able to successfully work against the NOx emissions.

By the way if you have just got the warning for low DEF then there should still be a good amount of kms left before it is empty. So you may fill it up a bit later as well.

And while filing it be very careful of spillage as the liquid is corrosive and also harmful to the skin.

[ramprakashr]

My Hyundai Tucson's DEF Tank is at 50% after munching close to 4500 kms. DEF Tank capacity of Tucson is 14L. HPCL only had 20 litre buckets, while IOC COCO bunk had a 10 litre bucket, with one year shelf life and costing ₹55 per litre. Also procured a funnel from the neighbourhood store, just to be extra careful. Attaching photos.







Hope this helps. Thanks and stay safe.

[LONG_TOURER]

Originally Posted by ramprakashr

My Hyundai Tucson's DEF Tank is at 50% after munching close to 4500 kms. DEF Tank capacity of Tucson is 14L. HPCL only had 20 litre buckets, while IOC COCO bunk had a 10 litre bucket, with one year shelf life and costing ₹55 per litre.

That is nice. Well, i filled my Tucson with tata motors DEF which come with 10L container. Are you sure that Tucson comes with 14L DEF tank ? Because my Tucson is showing almost full Urea level when i refilled her up with 10L DEF. I got low urea level warning when odo was around 75xx kms.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

Very informative post audioholic, thanks for sharing, clears a lot of doubt regarding BS VI diesel engines. One question from my side, how long can we expect these additional filters to last without needing replacement? Will they last the lifetime of a vehicle, like a catalytic converter, if maintained properly?

Picked up a D75 Bolero recently and it comes with DPF and DEF, having read the Owners manual my understanding is that as long as there is decent enough exhaust velocity and heat the DPF regenerates, which kinda makes sense considering it is inline with the Ethos of the Italian Tune Up.

But if by chance we don't get to open her up due to lack of use or a decent highway nearby there's a Regeneration Mode we can set the car to run in, all you need is an open parking and a couple of minutes as once the Regeneration Mode is active the car takes over and does its job while we let it idle till the process completes on its own.

Truth be told I didn't give it much thought as the manual was self explanatory and only thought about it after spotting this thread.

Only reason for concern I felt is that as per the manual the car would throw an error if the DEF isn't of the prescribed concentration when poured in, which from user experience would need a refill with anywhere from 8~10k KM's depending on use.

P.S. Just recalled, not filling DEF or not regenerating DPF would send the car into limp mode, after duly warning the driver via the MID ofcourse.

Regards,
A.P.

[Nikhil Beke]

It's been more than one year since BS6 field become available, has anyone's frequency of DPF regeneration gone down since the introduction of former? I have booked Ford Freestyle TDCi BS6 and would be using it for City use as well as for highway use (150-200km) once in 2-3 weeks. Any worries? Specifically, Would I be needed to plan separate highway trips, specifically to let DPF regenerate? Sounds fun in the initial years of ownership, but as someone has pointed out above- may get tiresome later.

[SansGT]

Here is a video example of how the park regen feature works in the XUV300. Kudos to Mahindra for equipping this super essential feature. All BS6 diesels should come with this functionality.

https://youtu.be/iUH3yUW8cPc