[ds.raikkonen]

Recently, Hyundai and Harman have launched the 'HALOsonic' suite in the Genesis GV80 which has 'Road-Noise Active Noise Control (RANC)' technology to reduce in-cabin noise level by canceling out unwanted sound.

Debuting on the Genesis GV80 SUV, the system is based on Harman’s HALOsonic suite of noise management technologies and actively reduces noise in real time by emitting soundwaves inverted to the incoming noise.

The RANC control processor uses reference signals received from acceleration sensors placed strategically along the suspension and chassis to predict noise transferred into the cabin and to generate an anti-noise wave.

Compute time and signal transfer speed are optimized to allow for an analysis of the intruding noise and the generation of the anti-noise within milliseconds, thereby preventing the noise from reaching the occupants’ ears. Error microphones constantly monitor the system performance in each seat location.

In pursuing ways to lessen the environmental impact of vehicles and raise fuel efficiency, automakers are reducing vehicle weight, often by using less noise-dampening insulation in the car’s interior. The use of lighter materials, however, increases perceptible road noise inside the vehicle, which then penetrates the interior (and passenger ears) and also compromises the audio experience of the on-board infotainment system. The traditional NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness) methods have difficulties mitigating these issues satisfactorily – and these technologies also tend to add weight, which cancels out the fuel economy effect of using lighter materials.

My understanding is that it will cancel the 'unwanted' part and not the essential 'ambient noise', apart from reducing noise dampening material usage on cars in a bid to increase FE. Still, after using a noise canceling headphone, I've felt that it creates a slightly uncomfortable feeling or may be I am just not used to it. Thoughts?

[Keeleri_Achu]

Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

Recently, Hyundai and Harman have launched the 'HALOsonic' suite in the Genesis GV80 which has 'Road-Noise Active Noise Control (RANC)' technology to reduce in-cabin noise level by canceling out unwanted sound.

I hope they include the option to turn it off as well. I've never been a fan of using speakers to create artificial engine sounds. Some of these vehicles doesn't even give an option to turn it off . I seriously doubt that this is going to have a similar effect. I do hope I'm wrong.

My understanding is that it will cancel the 'unwanted' part and not the essential 'ambient noise', apart from reducing noise dampening material usage on cars in a bid to increase FE.

I hope they don't rely too much on 'tech' to reduce noise and give a generous amount of dampening materials. Genesis products have been punching a lot above their weight and with the rising popularity of Hyundai/Kia globally, they do have a bright future. A luxury car with poor NVH characteristics is going to be a disaster. The recently launched Sonata was criticized by many reviewers for having terrible sound insulation.

Still, after using a noise canceling headphone, I've felt that it creates a slightly uncomfortable feeling or may be I am just not used to it.

While I personally don't have any issues using an ANC headphone for extended periods, I've heard some of my friends complain of the same. Although IMO, the amount of noise cancelling depends on passive factors-the fit in/over the ear, as much as the active factors. That is the reason why almost all in-ear ANC headphones comes with a variety of buds to ensure the proper fit. If you put the case of cars in the same perspective, manufactures will still have to put a lot of emphasis in passive sound deadening, and only use active technologies for fine tuning.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

My understanding is that it will cancel the 'unwanted' part and not the essential 'ambient noise', apart from reducing noise dampening material usage on cars in a bid to increase FE. Still, after using a noise canceling headphone, I've felt that it creates a slightly uncomfortable feeling or may be I am just not used to it. Thoughts?

I'll put it in a way that anyone can understand it, all sound is, is vibration, there are only 2 ways to lessen or cut out a sound, one is to stop the vibrations from reaching the ear, or the other is to use vibrations which reaches the ear, but yet isnt interpreted by the brain as noise (white noise).

Silence is the most underrated virtue and luxury, however the noise cancelling aspect will add only to the last 5% luxury of complete silence and should be enabled only at times, 95% of the time as rightly said above, the passive sound deadening should be put to work.

[Jeroen]

I have been using active noise cancellation headsets for many years. Both as a pilot and as passenger on planes. I am very happy with them. I have only had various Bose types, very comfortable even wearing them for many hours.

I have never experienced active noise cancellation the way it appears to be implemented in this car. It does raise many question on how they actually do it. Noise cancellation in a headset is a very different thing from making this work in a car.

I assume it also responds to the actual speed/noises and adjusts. Would it adjust for the number of passengers in the car as that does change the acoustics. Etc

So unless we get some review on somebody knowledgeable testing the actual system in a variety of actual traffic conditions I find it difficult to come to any meaningful thoughts on this.

Jeroen

[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I have never experienced active noise cancellation the way it appears to be implemented in this car. It does raise many question on how they actually do it. Noise cancellation in a headset is a very different thing from making this work in a car.

I assume it also responds to the actual speed/noises and adjusts. Would it adjust for the number of passengers in the car as that does change the acoustics. Etc

From what I read about the system, it creates destructive interference with the sound waves created from road-tyre contact by predicting the sound frequency through sensors mounted on the suspension and creating an inverted wave. Its effectiveness is measured through microphones mounted on each seat.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

From what I read about the system, it creates destructive interference with the sound waves created from road-tyre contact by predicting the sound frequency through sensors mounted on the suspension and creating an inverted wave. Its effectiveness is measured through microphones mounted on each seat.

Sure, that is the basic. In practice it is very tricky doing this. It is one thing doing it in a acoustically optimised head set. Doing this in car interior is quite a different matter altogether. Car interiors are a nightmare acoustically speaking, with many different kind of surfaces at different angles. When you put only a driver in it, or a driver and four passengers makes a huge difference.

You need to get the inverted wave with the appropriate frequency into everybody’s ears at the right time, whilst there are all kinds of wave reflections, attenuations going on. Not easy at all.

Noise from a car is not just road-tyre related. The idea is to reduce traditional noise and vibration measure (e.g. less dampning material, less thick steel etc). That means potentially more and different kind of noises intruding into the interior. (Eg. engine, transmission, wheel bearings, air etc etc etc)

But even road tyre is speed related and you will get different sounds for different road surfaces. On the same road, same speed with heavy rain the sounds will be very different.

You only want to filter out certain frequencies, depending on various parameters. I am not an expert by any means. But many moons ago I did my thesis at naval college on noise and vibration predictions in merchant ships during the design phase. So the designer could quantify the effects of noise and vibration measures.

It will take quite some fancy hardware, software and some advanced algorithms to get this right. (I was programming in Fortran and Basic for my model , I am sure they have something more up to date.)

so without actually experiencing it in this particular car it is really anybody’s guess on what it will be like.

Jeroen

[kozhissery]

Is it not an old technology that was/is used in Honda cars. I do remember reading about this feature in accord (V6 I think) long time back. A search in net revealed the same

https://www.hondainfocenter.com/en/S...ion-ANC-System

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by kozhissery

Is it not an old technology that was/is used in Honda cars. I do remember reading about this feature in accord (V6 I think) long time back. A search in net revealed the same

The basic principle and technology has been around for a long time. It has been used in other industries as well (E.g. mining springs to mind)

But getting the technology up to the level that it is really useful and appreciated by the occupants is a very different matter. (and at a cost level that makes sense)

As I said, requires quite some advance stuff!

Just because something “in principle makes sense or is theoretically possible” is no guarantee the boffins can actually produce a solution that make sense and delivers on that promise.

Analogy: An electrically power assisted steering should, in theory and in principle, be much better than a Hydraulically power assisted steering. But that is certainly not (yet) the case in most electrically power assisted steering.

Jeroen

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You only want to filter out certain frequencies, depending on various parameters. I am not an expert by any means. But many moons ago I did my thesis at naval college on noise and vibration predictions in merchant ships during the design phase. So the designer could quantify the effects of noise and vibration measures.

It will take quite some fancy hardware, software and some advanced algorithms to get this right. (I was programming in Fortran and Basic for my model , I am sure they have something more up to date.)

In practice any tv which does dialogue enhancing does the same(in real time). Algorithm targets specific frequency range. I guess today's hardware and technology is far more sophisticated.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by nandrive

In practice any tv which does dialogue enhancing does the same(in real time). Algorithm targets specific frequency range. I guess today's hardware and technology is far more sophisticated.

I dont think so.
Dialogue enhancing is something completely different. Just a clever way of electronic filtering out the voice signal out of the rest and enhancing the voice over the rest. All done inside an electronic chip.

Active noice cancelation is much more complex. You need to measure all the noise/sound then decide what needs cancelling, not filtering. In r to cancel you need to generate a similar sound/Frequency with a 180o phase shift. The original sound and the one with the phase shift need to reach your inner earmdrum at the exact same time so they cancel each other out. This in an acoustically challenging environment.

One is electronic filtering, the other acoustic cancelation. Hence the different names .

Jeroen

Jeroen

[nandrive]

A good dialogue enhancer enhances only the speech part, leaves other contents untouched, (may be few remove noise as well). It does so by separating out speech frequencies, adding gain to only those frequencies and merging back the enhanced signal to the original signal. The Alexa devices ,do echo cancellation, without that speaker can not respond to user
commands when playing music. The Facebook portal device which tracks user movement has builtin sound source detection and sound direction tracking. Many phones come with wind noise cancellation/suppression.
Of course these things are complex and only few technology companies out there which provide solutions to these problems. We have the technology and cost effective hardware to get the job done.

[GTO]

I've driven cars with sound manipulation (BMW M5 with fake engine sounds, Audi E-Tron etc.) and these systems are very, very convincing. The feature is even entering semi-luxury cars like the Honda Accord. Have liked them so much that I never turned them off .

[Sahil]

Originally Posted by GTO

I've driven cars with sound manipulation (BMW M5 with fake engine sounds, Audi E-Tron etc.) and these systems are very, very convincing. The feature is even entering semi-luxury cars like the Honda Accord. Have liked them so much that I never turned them off .

Never thought I would hear YOU say this (would have liked to use a heartbroken emoji but there ain't any here )

I personally hate the fake sounds. Only cars I would find them acceptable are EVs. I first heard this when I test drove the C43 AMG and it's even there in our GLC when you put it in sports mode, I have stopped putting that car in that mode because of this.

[procrastinator]

I hope our Audio Gurus will be able to shed more light on technology details working to achieve it.

This was very much required.
I have not sat in a luxury car and cannot comment on road noise (or other noise) generated on highways that if they really need it or not. But for sure this piece of tech is doable and will be able to help cars that have low damping material to cancel the noise.

It will be interesting to see if this technology becomes cheap over the period that it can be utilized by volume cars.
And It will help to control the road noise in EVs.

[Reinhard]

I admire such technologies simply as a reflection of how intelligent & capable the human race has become. Remarkable people these who can think of such things & manage to make them a reality.

Also - these technologies after-all create a lot of direct & indirect jobs also in the ecosystem. So thats one more positive about it.

However - I fail to understand the need of all this. I don't get why humans are trying so desperately hard to be disconnected from the realities. So much so that fake experience during a car drive is needed. The way real experiences are loosing value to virtual once in absolutely everything, is quite amusing to me.