[coolkurt]

Besides the ethical standpoint, that you'll be polluting lesser, what's the advantage of waiting/insisting on BS6 for a car buyer? BS6 mileage is also slightly lower than BS4. Let's not consider government policies for now.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by coolkurt

If you buy a BS6 compliant car today, will your RC mention BS4 or BS6?

I was at the dealership and asked the same question. They showed me 2 RC smart-cards, one of BS-IV Ciaz and the other of BS-VI Wagon-R, both had only the engine cubic capacity mentioned but nothing about BS-xx

Originally Posted by coolkurt

Besides the ethical standpoint, that you'll be polluting lesser, what's the advantage of waiting/insisting on BS6 for a car buyer? BS6 mileage is also slightly lower than BS4. Let's not consider government policies for now.

The biggest advantage is higher resale value and marketability of a BS-VI vehicle.

For BS-IV buyers there will soon be a sweet spot - as per Economic Times / Quartz India, the piled up inventory of BS-IV new cars currently stands at 5,00,000 cars and three million two-wheelers!! IMO, just wait till Jan~Feb 2020 when manufacturers will be forced to announce auction of their excess inventory of BS-IV vehicles.

Today ask any average driver/owner about BS-VI and they stare at you blankly. After April 2020 when awareness catches up and people realize that their vehicle is just few years away from expiry, they will rush to sell it. There will soon be a glut of BS-III and BS-IV vehicles in the resale market. Many will have to sell at throwaway prices or junk value as govt may not allow re-registration of BS-III / BS-IV vehicles after 15 years or may steeply increase the re-registration fee + air pollution tax + impose mandatory fitness certificate renewal every 6 months like PUC.

[coolkurt]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I was at the dealership and asked the same question. They showed me 2 RC smart-cards, one of BS-IV Ciaz and the other of BS-VI Wagon-R, both had only the engine cubic capacity mentioned but nothing about BS-xx

Many will have to sell at throwaway prices or junk value as govt may not allow re-registration of BS-III / BS-IV vehicles after 15 years or may steeply increase the re-registration fee + air pollution tax + impose mandatory fitness certificate renewal every 6 months like PUC.

That brings me to my question. Assuming that in future there is a move to restrict Re-Registration of BS4 vehicles ( The FM has said BS4 cars bought now will be allowed to ply on the roads for its entire term but there's nothing specific on extension) , how will the government restrict BS4 cars from plying the roads, if nothing is mentioned on the RC? By just the registration date?

For someone who's bought a BS6 compliant car say the Kia Seltos, registered in Oct 2019, how will he/she prove that their car is BS6 compliant and hence eligible for an extension?

There is already a proposal to increase the Re-registration fee to Rs 15000, which is still nominal for someone who's maintained his car well and wants to stick to it. The vehicle scrappage policy will at best be optional and incentivized.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by coolkurt

For someone who's bought a BS6 compliant car say the Kia Seltos, registered in Oct 2019, how will he/she prove that their car is BS6 compliant and hence eligible for an extension?

There won't be a need to prove BS-VI compliance. The Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Bill 2019 now mandates linking all vehicle data and electronic
uploading of emissions test data (PUCC) to the VAHAN database.

Furthermore the PUCC centers have been directed to issue a printed PUCC to the owner and then upload the data; hand-written certificates won't be valid.

For re-registration, insurance renewal, ownership transfer, accident liability or any traffic violation, the moment they punch in the vehicle registration number I would expect to see all relevant details onscreen. Just having a BS-VI compliant engine won't be enough to be eligible for re-registration or Insurance renewal, the emission has to be within limits as-well.

[coolkurt]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

There won't be a need to prove BS-VI compliance. The Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Bill 2019 now mandates linking all vehicle data and electronic
uploading of emissions test data (PUCC) to the VAHAN database.

Furthermore the PUCC centers have been directed to issue a printed PUCC to the owner and then upload the data; hand-written certificates won't be valid.

.

In Delhi, it's already supposed to be linked and uploaded. However, I really don't think it still works properly. And there is 'adjustment' at the centre to pass the emission test.Let's see how it fares in the future.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

According to my knowledge most refineries won't be able to produce BS-VI fuels by the 2020 deadline...

Originally Posted by NH6

I am informed otherwise. Our domestic refiners are all geared up. BS 6 Fuel supply wont face issues.

Originally Posted by gauravanekar

Same information I have. The fuel will be ready and available.

Obviously, the Minister knows better! Here's confirmation of chiranjitp's statement that pan-India rollout of BS6 fuels will not happen on 1/4/2020:
https://khabar.ndtv.com/news/india/p...l-2020-2113746

Jaipur: Union Information and Broadcasting and Forest, Environment and Climate Change Minister Prakash Javadekar said in Jaipur on Tuesday that BS6 fuel will be available in many major cities of the country including Jaipur from April 1. After planting the plant at Malaviya National Institute of Technology (MNIT) campus here, Javadekar said that Rs 60 thousand crore has been invested for BS6 fuel and this will reduce the pollution caused by vehicles by 80-90 percent. . He informed that the government has prepared a National Clean Air Program for 122 cities of the country. In this, plans will be made for environmental protection according to the level of pollution of each city.

Javadekar said that as a result of efforts being made to save the environment in the country, the forest area of ​​the country has increased by 15 thousand square kilometers and now it has become 25 percent of the total area. We have to make efforts to increase it to 33 percent. He told that 840 students admitted to the institution this year have planted saplings in the campus itself, which is a commendable initiative. He said that such initiative should be taken in every educational institution, factory and other business premises so that we can build oxygen bank for ourselves.

(This news has not been edited by the NDTV team. It has been published directly from the Syndicate feed.)

As for his statement that BS6 fuel will reduce the pollution caused by vehicles by 80-90 percent - well, once again, I'd certainly hope so!!

[SideView]

Hello fellow Bhpians,

So as you can tell by the title, this is yet another BS6 thread. Rather than speculating I would take a measured approach on issues that could come up when running non-BS6 vehicle on BS6 fuel.

Why do I seek support of NCR Bhipans you ask?
Link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...s-advance.html (BS-VI fuel in all of NCR from today (01-Oct-2019), 6 months in advance)


What strange issues are our fellow NCR Bhpians facing since the start of this month, for people who are using BSIV or older vehicles ? Maybe its too early to tell, who knows? I shall try updating the thread as the time goes.
(Lets keep it related to fuel/engine related and not other, you know what I mean)


( Or Are they selling BSIV fuel as BSVI? How do we really know?) What all people do for publicity nowadays.


I have added a poll, please also summarize the issue noticed

[Hayek]

I am not that sure about whether a longitudinal engine configuration will be enough to solve the problems with Indian real world driving conditions leading to clogged DPFs.

Found a very interesting UK article on DPFs.

Key points that it makes:

1) DPFs are generally designed to burn off soot through passive regeneration - which requires driving at UK motorway speeds (60 mph) for 30-50 minutes on a regular basis. Barring some BHPians, virtually no one in India does that regularly. So Passive Regeneration will not work for most users.
2) They also use active regeneration - by injecting extra fuel to burn off the soot if the filter is 40% clogged. But even that requires a 10 minute drive at sustained speeds of more than 40 mph - once again impossible in most Indian cities for peak hour driving. If the active regeneration fails, the warning lights stay on - and this can lead to greater damage to the DPF which becomes fully clogged. And of course, the extra fuel burn galls our Kitna Deti Hai obsessed crowd.
3) Forced regeneration can be done by garages - but it is costly (GBP 100+) and not a 100% guaranteed fix
4) Some models move into limp home mode or won’t start with DPF errors
5) Poor maintenance, poor fuel quality and certain engine oils also damage DPFs. By the way, the clogged DPFs for Seltoses is probably due to urban driving cycles and not just due to BS 4 fuel.

In short, I am amazed how any manufacturer thinks that DPF equipped cars are viable in India.

The more I read on this topic, the more convinced I get that VAG and Maruti have made the right call here by abandoning diesels for the Indian market - and that other manufacturers will either face customer complaints (if they build fail safes to prevent cars with clogged DPFs from driving) or potential fines (if they let customers ignore DPF failures and keep polluting).

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by Hayek

1) DPFs are generally designed to burn off soot through passive regeneration - which requires driving at UK motorway speeds (60 mph) for 30-50 minutes on a regular basis. Barring some BHPians, virtually no one in India does that regularly. So Passive Regeneration will not work for most users.
2) They also use active regeneration - by injecting extra fuel to burn off the soot if the filter is 40% clogged. But even that requires a 10 minute drive at sustained speeds of more than 40 mph - once again impossible in most Indian cities for peak hour driving. If the active regeneration fails, the warning lights stay on - and this can lead to greater damage to the DPF which becomes fully clogged. And of course, the extra fuel burn galls our Kitna Deti Hai obsessed crowd.

When I was using a diesel Octavia (1.6 TDI), I was running many short trips in terms of distance as well as time - office was only 6km away (max speed 50km/h, took me about 10mins to get to office) and nearest shopping centre less than 2km away. Especially during winter, my usage was down to 450-500km a month. With this usage pattern, I did not have any DPF issues and never saw the DPF light come on, even in winters with temperatures dropping down to -28 degree Celsius on occasion and remaining below -10 degrees Celsius for weeks at a time. I have even seen the engine temperature dropping while the car was being driven at 40km/h I guess I have to thank active regeneration for keeping the DPF working. If a regeneration is interrupted because the car is switched off, the regeneration resumes the next time the car is driven. My car also had start/stop feature which automatically gets disabled if a regeneration is going on, so stopping at a signal or being stuck in traffic will not interrupt a regeneration.

I am not sure there would be DPF issues in Indian driving conditions if active regeneration works as intended. Of course, this means FE will take a nosedive as I have also experienced.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

(max speed 50km/h, took me about 10mins to get to office) and nearest shopping centre less than 2km away. Especially during winter, my usage was down to 450-500km a month. With this usage pattern,

I am not sure there would be DPF issues in Indian driving conditions if active regeneration works as intended. Of course, this means FE will take a nosedive as I have also experienced.

The problem is that urban speeds in India barely touch 20km/h. Other issue is whether drivers will heed the active regeneration norms

[AnandB]

If this is true of DPF then it is going to be a major problem here in India.

Are these issues only because of BS4 diesel or will remain with BS6 fuel as well?

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by ajmat

The problem is that urban speeds in India barely touch 20km/h. Other issue is whether drivers will heed the active regeneration norms

How does speed influence the process in normal use? Both my old Octavia and now the Karoq manuals mention:

We encourage you to avoid constant short journeys. This supports the correct function of the particulate filter.

There is no mention of driving at any speeds in normal use. Speeds are mentioned only in connection with the DPF warning light coming on.

My understanding is that the passive regeneration process takes care of clearing the DPF, but if the regeneration is interrupted too many times (by constant short journeys) then the DPF may get clogged and the DPF light will come on - and at that point some 15-20 minutes driving at constant high speeds is needed.

As I mentioned, I was almost always doing short journeys, but still did not see the DPF light ever come on.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

How does speed influence the process in normal use? Both my old Octavia and now the Karoq manuals mention:
.

Short and a lower speed mean that the engine many not reach the optimum temperature and also at such low speeds in low gear, the relative load and RPM burns more fuel and hence more particulate is emitted

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Short and a lower speed mean that the engine many not reach the optimum temperature and also at such low speeds in low gear, the relative load and RPM burns more fuel and hence more particulate is emitted

Not contradicting any of this, however, I have used DPF-equipped car in the similar conditions - short trips, low speed, engine unable to reach optimum temperature - and did not face issues. The speeds may have not been as low as urban conditions in India, but on the other hand temperatures have been far lower, almost always preventing engine from reaching optimum temperature (especially in winter). The big variable I see is the fuel quality available here and in India.

Of course, if the user is not aware of the DPF and active regeneration, it could end up being an expensive repair.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Not contradicting any of this, however, I have used DPF-equipped car in the similar conditions - short trips, low speed, engine unable to reach optimum temperature - and did not face issues. The speeds may have not been as low as urban conditions in India, but on the other hand temperatures have been far lower, almost always preventing engine from reaching optimum temperature (especially in winter). The big variable I see is the fuel quality available here and in India.

Of course, if the user is not aware of the DPF and active regeneration, it could end up being an expensive repair.

Those were my theories.

As you have mentioned, there are 3 variables

1: Type of usage
2: User knowledge - regarding regeneration
3: Quality of fuel

We contradict on 1: but 2 and 3, am in agreement. VAG may not want to take the risk for 2 and 3