[hserus]

Plenty of things - eg: water can enter and contaminate the oil, trace amounts of metals in the oil can oxidise, the detergents and other additives in the oil can break down etc.

This is a useful note on the subject - https://www.yourmechanic.com/article...e-of-motor-oil

Anyway if the oil looks clear and pours freely, without any extra viscosity or sediment / crystallisation then you should be good to go.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Guys,

Just one thought. Oil is derived from crude which has been stable across millions of years. Unless there are some additives which make it perishable, I dont think that a petroleum product can really expire.

Its like saying that the petrol pump sold me old petrol

Unless someone can really explain what happens to the oil post its so called "expiry date", I would believe that oil expiry is much longer than printed material.

[reignofchaos]

Well to clear up the confusion, I use the exact same motul 0w40 xmax oil in my v40 and GT TSi as it is hands down the best oil available locally. Most of the bottles I sourced via Amazon were late 2016 manufactured and so far I've not had any issues. The bottles were sealed and original. Viscosity felt right and the cars drove fine. 2 yr old stock for high end oil is fairly common and let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[sgiitk]

All very fine, but shipping a two year old can is not kosher in my view.Given the import hassles a yer is Ok but not two.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

2 yr old stock for high end oil is fairly common and let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Absolutely. Synthetics are high end oils and in a price conscious country like India sell far less than their mineral equivalents. Stock turnover time will be way higher for mineral.

But since the manufacturer themselves claim shelf life of 3-5 years IMO it's perfectly fine to use oil manufactured and imported 1-2 years back. Alternative is buy from a local store after checking the date.

But then to each his own I guess.

[Ketz]

I work for an e-commerce employer and can provide some insight here. Firstly the supplier shares the expiry date for a batch of products when the product is inbounded to warehouse for the seller, even if the seller is cloudtail in this case. So Motul (assuming Motul being the supplier here) has mentioned that expiry date is 5 years after manufacturing date and given has product documentation to prove it. There is no reason for Amazon to scout the internet to cross-validate the claim. I don't think Amazon is at fault here, the customer support was fairly confident that the expiry is 5 years after manufacturing date based on supplier product contract and hence requested you to provide any contradicting information if you could provide it.

Mind you that all e-commerce companies are very customer centric and I am sure the CS executive would have contacted the supplier to confirm the expiry date claim by you. This is as per protocol. They take these complains very seriously and continually mark down sellers/suppliers based on complaints.

Amazon has already provided a free replacement and I think that is as good a service one can expect.

Now the suggestion of displaying expiry date on the website. The suggestion has already been enforced as part of regulation by the government (same as you see MRP now) and in a couple of month's all e-commerce websites will display expiry dates on the website for items. The feature is being built across all platforms as of now.

There are fair amount of complications in implementing the expiry display though, this is due to the sheer amount of scale of the marketplace. Multiple sellers selling the same product, each having mulitple batches of expiry dates. Different expiry date lots placed at warehouses neat the customer from where the item will be fulfilled. I could dwelve more on this but to keep it short, it is very complex problem to solve.

[dip27in]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Absolutely. Synthetics are high end oils and in a price conscious country like India sell far less than their mineral equivalents. Stock turnover time will be way higher for mineral.

But since the manufacturer themselves claim shelf life of 3-5 years IMO it's perfectly fine to use oil manufactured and imported 1-2 years back. Alternative is buy from a local store after checking the date.

But then to each his own I guess.

Since its Motul specific, 3 years is what they mention after manufacturing, here in this case the oil was manufactured in March 2016. Looking at it, I am using an oil which is near expiry as per the manufacturer. I choose not to, since I have options. In my case, even my 30 year old car is pampered with best parts and workmanship as per my available resource and ability.



I do understand, I get, what I pay for. I do understand that the oils can be old, million years they had been buried. However if that is the case, we would have used the same crude oil in our engine, or even grease for that matter, if it really didnt matter. The issue is, Amazon should intimate, what we are signing in for. In a country where people are not even bothered for expired medicine, discussion on " expired oil" isn't the best thing to look forward



It is good that we are at least discussing Motul or Mobile, shows some degree of importance to engine oil. I would still prefer to use an oil which has been recently packed( the least I can do an engine), since there are many other things which is beyond my control. If I have to discuss just on oil change, even at ASS, how can I verify that even after paying for synthetic Oil, I am not being fed mineral oil of extremely low grade or wrong viscosity or wrong quantity. For example, in my civic, during warranty period I have always been billed for 4.2 ltrs of engine oil, however, whenever I changed myself ( with drain time of more than 30 minutes and use of engine flush as per Recommendations), the car failed to swallow more than 3.7 ltrs approximately.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by R2D2

I have used 1-2 year old engine oil without any ill effects whatsoever. As long as the oil container is stored in a cool dry place with the cap and seal in place there will be no issue. I have even bought oil a year in advance during an online sale and used it when was time for the car's annual service.
.

Actually, you don't know that, other than you have seen no immediate noticeable, apperent effects.

When debating good versus a not so good oil (e.g. an oil stored over its expiration date) we need to bear in mind that the not so good oil still does everything it was supposed to do. It lubricates, it cools, it keeps contaiments afloat etc. It just does not do it as well as a brand new oil. The effects are rarely immedialety, but cummulative over the duration of the engine life. So for instance instead of needing an engnie overhaul at 250.000km, the engine might need an overhaul at say 240.000 km.

There is always a lot of debate on car forums on the quality of oils. Except for the exceptionally bad oil, or oil with a completely different specification than the recommended one, you are unlikely to experience any problems. Sell you car before it hits 100K and the effects of the quality of the oil is likely never to be apparent to you. It's a slow cummulative process, the only thing that a poor oil (be it specification or past shelf life does) is accelerate that process. How much is anybodies guess, but it is rarely apperent.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Just one thought. Oil is derived from crude which has been stable across millions of years. Unless there are some additives which make it perishable, I dont think that a petroleum product can really expire.

You cant compare crude oil, locked up under high pressure under the earth, and sealed from air (oygen) with any lubrication oil type of product.

Every lub oil you put in your engine is something completely different from crude oil. It will have all sorts of additives thrown in and yes they do decay over time. Also, bear in mind that Fully Synthetic oil, might not have any traditional mineral oil in them. It is all chemical, synthesized componenents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

But the same is true for plain mineral oil, which is derived from crude. Lots and lots of additives and stuff thrown in before it makes it into your engine

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Its like saying that the petrol pump sold me old petrol
.

They can and it does happen. Petrol, which is actually in all its shapes and formats directly derived from crude. Again, lots of additives and some other problems as well!

There is no shelve life for petrol, because it is a bit unpractical to to label. But anybody that knows a bit of storing cars for long duration knows petrol might go off or stale over time. So if you store a car for a long period. (i.e. well over 6-12 months) prior to starting, first open the fuel cap and smell the fuel. If you smell rotten eggs, the fuel is off and you need to drain the tank and fuel system. It happened to me once, whilst my cars were in storage during the eight years we lived abroad.

It is known to happen very occossional at petrol pumps with very little useage. High temperatures accelerates the process.

For the disconcerted at heart, dont read this Aussie BP flyer which recommend not to use petrol over three weeks old:

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-co...icle-tanks.pdf

In practice water in your fuel tends to be a more immediate concern when storing cars, but fuel going off is a real phenomena.

[2000rpm]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You cant compare crude oil, locked up under high pressure under the earth, and sealed from air (oygen) with any lubrication oil type of product.

Every lub oil you put in your engine is something completely different from crude oil. It will have all sorts of additives thrown in and yes they do decay over time. Also, bear in mind that Fully Synthetic oil, might not have any traditional mineral oil in them. It is all chemical, synthesized componenents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

But the same is true for plain mineral oil, which is derived from crude. Lots and lots of additives and stuff thrown in before it makes it into your engine



They can and it does happen. Petrol, which is actually in all its shapes and formats directly derived from crude. Again, lots of additives and some other problems as well!

There is no shelve life for petrol, because it is a bit unpractical to to label. But anybody that knows a bit of storing cars for long duration knows petrol might go off or stale over time. So if you store a car for a long period. (i.e. well over 6-12 months) prior to starting, first open the fuel cap and smell the fuel. If you smell rotten eggs, the fuel is off and you need to drain the tank and fuel system. It happened to me once, whilst my cars were in storage during the eight years we lived abroad.

It is known to happen very occossional at petrol pumps with very little useage. High temperatures accelerates the process.

For the disconcerted at heart, dont read this Aussie BP flyer which recommend not to use petrol over three weeks old:

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-co...icle-tanks.pdf

In practice water in your fuel tends to be a more immediate concern when storing cars, but fuel going off is a real phenomena.

High Pressure, drives chemical reactions, doesnt inhibit the same.

Petrol in tank goes bad because of the metal tank or impurities which have settled over time. Also in long term storage, leakage from inlet is an issue. Oil is stored in sealed plastic cans and we know that plastic is almost inert and non-biodegradable.

The additives in the oil, all are added to PREVENT the oil quality from deteriorating. They are petroleum derivatives as well.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

...plastic is almost inert and non-biodegradable.

Not when exposed to petroleum products.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

The additives in the oil, all are added to PREVENT the oil quality from deteriorating.

No. Additives in lubricating oil are there to modify their behaviour under stressful running conditions, and to protect the components they are supposed to lubricate. Additives contribute to a large chunk of the cost of expensive oils.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

High Pressure, drives chemical reactions, doesnt inhibit the same. .

Change drives chemical reaction. You go from a high pressure, no oxygen environment, that has been stable like that for million years to a different environment.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Petrol in tank goes bad because of the metal tank or impurities which have settled over time. Also in long term storage, leakage from inlet is an issue. Oil is stored in sealed plastic cans and we know that plastic is almost inert and non-biodegradable..

Yes, and some other reasons too. Be it in a storage tank, or in a cars petrol tank. the result is still the same. The fuel goes stale.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

The additives in the oil, all are added to PREVENT the oil quality from deteriorating. They are petroleum derivatives as well.

The additives are there for many different reasons. I guess you are referring to what oil companies typically advertise with and what you can read on the oil discussions on the car forums too. Additives are added to among others maintain the oil quality, i.e. prevent degrading of the oil specification. In that context they are referring to the normal use of engine oils. So whilst in use in the engine, a number of additives are there to ensure the oil keeps its quality whilst being use. E.g. there are certain additives that ensure the viscosity remains within specification.

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

They are petroleum derivatives as well.

Not necessarily, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_additive

Note that it mentions specifically antioxidants to prevent stock degradation!

Jeroen

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by dip27in

It is good that we are at least discussing Motul or Mobile, shows some degree of importance to engine oil. I would still prefer to use an oil which has been recently packed( the least I can do an engine), since there are many other things which is beyond my control. If I have to discuss just on oil change, even at ASS, how can I verify that even after paying for synthetic Oil, I am not being fed mineral oil of extremely low grade or wrong viscosity or wrong quantity. .

While all of us would prefer getting the freshest stock possible all I am trying to say is that using slightly older stock is not really detrimental.

For example, in my civic, during warranty period I have always been billed for 4.2 ltrs of engine oil, however, whenever I changed myself ( with drain time of more than 30 minutes and use of engine flush as per Recommendations), the car failed to swallow more than 3.7 ltrs approximately.

Not sure why the billed you for 4.2 instead of 3.7 litres but that's the way some HASS and authorised service centres operate. Lack of ethics is what I'd call it.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Actually, you don't know that, other than you have seen no immediate noticeable, apperent effects..

It just does not do it as well as a brand new oil. The effects are rarely immedialety, but cummulative over the duration of the engine life. So for instance instead of needing an engnie overhaul at 250.000km, the engine might need an overhaul at say 240.000 km.

I don't disagree with you but Jeroen (I'm aware you are a marine engg., my Dad was a mariner too) taking your example if my car is going to last 240,000 km instead of 250,000 over, say, 10 years it isn't much of an impact because in India there are factors that are far more severe and detrimental to the life of the engine than using slightly older stock of engine oil. There are very few people like us who retain their cars >5 years and even fewer retain them >10 years.

Also, my low running cars have the engine oil (synthetic in the Toyota & semi-synthetic in the Fiat) changed at the 1 year interval even if the mileage is <5K kms annually. I'd reckon the 12 month period spent in the sump is more damaging to the oil than the effect of 1-2 years in the can after being shipped from the factory.

So that begs the question, do we need to replace engine oil in 3 or 6 months (as was recommended previously by Honda in India) instead of 12 months just to run the engine with the freshest possible oil? I personally don't think so since it would be a waste of resources and money.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by R2D2

So that begs the question, do we need to replace engine oil in 3 or 6 months (as was recommended previously by Honda in India) instead of 12 months just to run the engine with the freshest possible oil? I personally don't think so since it would be a waste of resources and money.

When I first bought my Amaze Honda's guidance was to replace at 1 year / 10k km intervals. They then switched to 0w20 and a six month change. I stuck to using 5w40 synthetic and 1 year / 10k and it seemed fine. Shell 5W40 was in fact good for rather longer drain intervals.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by hserus

When I first bought my Amaze Honda's guidance was to replace at 1 year / 10k km intervals. They then switched to 0w20 and a six month change. I stuck to using 5w40 synthetic and 1 year / 10k and it seemed fine. Shell 5W40 was in fact good for rather longer drain intervals.

I 'upgraded' from an Esteem MPFI (service interval 6 months IIRC) to a Honda City 1.5 EXi in 2002. It had a service interval of 5000 km or 3 months. Pathetic! Oil was Idemitsu 20W-50. I changed to Mobil 1 5W-50 after the warranty expired. What a difference!

As for Honda dealer's technicians - I have seen one chap drain the oil and run the engine (not my car's luckily) for a minute or two. When asked why he said it helps clear the old oil. I was horrified!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by R2D2

I don't disagree with you but Jeroen (I'm aware you are a marine engg., my Dad was a mariner too) taking your example if my car is going to last 240,000 km instead of 250,000 over, say, 10 years it isn't much of an impact because in India there are factors that are far more severe and detrimental to the life of the engine than using slightly older stock of engine oil. There are very few people like us who retain their cars >5 years and even fewer retain them >10 years..

True. But there are always people buying those older cars and they will be the one that are getting the benefits of all those oil changes and especially all those ridiculouos expensive oils!

Originally Posted by R2D2

Also, my low running cars have the engine oil (synthetic in the Toyota & semi-synthetic in the Fiat) changed at the 1 year interval even if the mileage is <5K kms annually. I'd reckon the 12 month period spent in the sump is more damaging to the oil than the effect of 1-2 years in the can after being shipped from the factory. .

You are most likely spot on.

Originally Posted by R2D2

So that begs the question, do we need to replace engine oil in 3 or 6 months (as was recommended previously by Honda in India) instead of 12 months just to run the engine with the freshest possible oil? I personally don't think so since it would be a waste of resources and money.

I would always stick to the Manufacturers recommended interval. It is most likely on the safe side of cautious, but I'm ok with that. I go for cheap oil that meets the manufacturer specification. Even more importantly, always change out the oil filter!

I have said it before, the interval is most likely more relevant for your oil filter than the oil. To put it differently, your filter is likely to have outlived its usefull live long before the oil does.

Especially in India, with lots of dust. Have a look what my filter looked like, as I cut it in half, after only less than 5000 km most likely. And that was in the Netherlands, one of the cleanest countries in the world!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-do...ml#post4421957