[Sankar]

Some of you know that I am having a problem with the brakes on my Crysta. Problems I have are 1) Brake Judder, 2) Brake fade and 3) Rotor pad consumption.

Crysta's stock front rotor diameter is 293mm and thickness is 28mm as measured. Rear brakes are drums and I have not measured them yet. 297mm is not a big size for a vehicle like Crysta which has 360NM torue, 170BHP and carries 8 people.

Toyota's compact crossover CHR gets a 298x28 and 281x12 discs at front and rear respectively. It has 187NM torque, 114BHP and carries 5 max.

For the weight, power and load carrying ability toyota should have provided larger brakes for the Innova especially since it is a disc and drum setup compared to the Fortuner which has dual disc setup. Not only does this come with a weaker disc and drum setup but the front rotors are also smaller than the Fortuner's. The smaller rotors for the similar weight and same speed creates a heat problem while braking which the stock rotors cannot absorb/get rid off before affecting braking performance.

The problem i have is not with stopping the vehicle. The brakes are quite capable of bringing the vehicle to a complete halt within respectable distance and time. But the problem is brake judder and brake fade experienced during spirited driving and having to brake to shed speed (automatic) then accelerate and probably again brake withing a short while. This cycle heats up the rotors hot and probably because its not large its thermal capacity is lower it cannot shed the heat or absorb the heat before deforming and causing brake judder.

My previous pads lasted me around 10000 to 11000kms before I experienced brake judder and got it examined and found that only 2mm remaining on the pad. Now its only under 6000kms since the new pads and I am getting brake judder again.

I was first thinking of a caliper upgrade but then realised that it will not solve the problem and a stronger caliper will probably make it worse for the rotor. The need is actually a bigger rotor and a caliper to go with it, tackle the heat problem and it will be solved.

I am in talks with couple of vendors regarding a big brake kit and the solution is a larger two piece rotor and a 4/6 pot caliper. I have a few questions regarding these.

When stock single piston caliper is replaced with a 4 or 6 piston caliper the piston area is going to be larger than stock. This should improve clamping force? Anything to watch out for other than increased pedal travel?

On a two piece rotor is 6061T6 alloy rotor hat okay? Or should that me made of 7075 or 2024 alloy? Is 6061T6 dangerous as a rotor hat material?

[//HB]

Interesting - your question could well be relevant for any car, not just the Innova. One question from me on this (in addition to what you've already covered - will this change affect ABS setup in any way ?

[R2D2]

Changing the brake kit(s) will impact the brake force distribution across the front and rear, there is a BFD valve and that may need to be changed/calibrated if possible. Another impact I foresee may be the ABS system. I am not sure if it has been calibrated for the factory brake set up or if it can be re-calibrated although the ABS only senses a potential wheel lock up before kicking into action.

I am a little surprised Toyota screwed up with such an important safety factor in the car's design. One thing I've never felt with my Altis is the lack of braking power. The brakes (this one is a Bosch braking system all through) are good even at highway speeds.

I feel they will upgrade the brakes when time is right for a mid life refresh if not earlier.

[sagarpadaki]

4 Channel ABS cars do not have BFD valve.

I think the ABS system might not need any re-adjustment. I am not sure if that is even possible

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by //HB

Interesting - your question could well be relevant for any car, not just the Innova. One question from me on this (in addition to what you've already covered - will this change affect ABS setup in any way ?

I hope not. Since it works on wheel speed sensors.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

4 Channel ABS cars do not have BFD valve.

I think the ABS system might not need any re-adjustment. I am not sure if that is even possible

I think there is a proportioning (front and rear brake bias) valve, not sure. I don't think recalibrating ABS module is possible for us.

Originally Posted by R2D2

Changing the brake kit(s) will impact the brake force distribution across the front and rear, there is a BFD valve and that may need to be changed/calibrated if possible. Another impact I foresee may be the ABS system. I am not sure if it has been calibrated for the factory brake set up or if it can be re-calibrated although the ABS only senses a potential wheel lock up before kicking into action.

I am pinning my hopes that there wouldn't be any issues looking at the user experiences of others who have got it done on performance cars. I will look more into it. I never had the real need to deviate much from OE spec brakes so far in my life with any cars I owned (that itself speaks volumes about how bad this setup is) but with Crysta it is a need.

Originally Posted by R2D2

I am a little surprised Toyota screwed up with such an important safety factor in the car's design. One thing I've never felt with my Altis is the lack of braking power. The brakes (this one is a Bosch braking system all through) are good even at highway speeds.

I feel they will upgrade the brakes when time is right for a mid life refresh if not earlier.

They screwed up twice, first time with the original Fortuner and now the Crysta. Fortuner got a brake upgrade in 2010. There is only one thing I am not happy about the Crysta and its the brakes and from the very early days of ownership. I thought it was rectified with the third set of rotors and new calipers but no joy.

Corolla has good brakes front and rear discs. I think front rotor is 275mm vented.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I think there is a proportioning (front and rear brake bias) valve, not sure. I don't think recalibrating ABS module is possible for us.

There is a proportioning/BFD valve in most cars. I am quite sure my car has one and it has a 4 channel Bosch ABS system, Bosch ABS system version is unknown to me. Will need to look under the bonnet to reconfirm the presence of this valve.

Contrary to common vehicle brake behaviour, in the Altis the rear pads wear 1.5-2x faster at about 20-25K kms compared to the front 40-50k kms.

Why? I read around somewhere on the 'net that this is deliberate to prevent the car's front end from diving sharply on hard braking. However, this is not an authoritative answer by Toyota but at the Toyota Nation forum IIRC.

I can attest to that no-diving behaviour. The car maintains its poise even during emergency braking. The price one pays is the rear brake pads which are pretty expensive at about Rs 9K including labour.

I am pinning my hopes that there wouldn't be any issues looking at the user experiences of others who have got it done on performance cars. I will look more into it. I never had the real need to deviate much from OE spec brakes so far in my life with any cars I owned (that itself speaks volumes about how bad this setup is) but with Crysta it is a need.

Gosh! I feel your disappointment. I would encourage you to visit the Toyota Nation forum to find out more about brake upgrades. They are pretty common place. Use a VPN as India and some countries have been banned due to the volume of spam received..or so they say.

I thought it was rectified with the third set of rotors and new calipers but no joy.

Yep, I am aware of the 1st gen Fortuner brake muddle and the brake upgrade at a later date. Who knows? TKM may offer a similar upgrade to your car as well once enough reports come in from customers. If you do change the rotors/calipers do retain the old set as they may need to be fitted back on the vehicle for any warranty brake upgrade by Toyota. Toyota should have done its homework way better. Pretty disappointing!

Corolla has good brakes front and rear discs. I think front rotor is 275mm vented.

The brakes are good, certainly better than the 4 disc setup on the 9G, my previous car.

The 10 and 11G cars have much the same brake setup. But 11G cars probably have rebadged Akebono or Galfer pads instead of Bosch.

PS - Good luck with the upgrade Sankar. I'll be following this thread. There's probably something to learn for other car owners as well

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I think there is a proportioning (front and rear brake bias) valve, not sure. I don't think recalibrating ABS module is possible for us.

.

Originally Posted by R2D2

There is a proportioning/BFD valve in most cars. I am quite sure my car has one and it has a 4 channel Bosch ABS system, Bosch ABS system version is unknown to me. Will need to look under the bonnet to reconfirm the presence of this valve.

My Bad. I should have been more specific.

Brake force proportioning valve are not present in case of all 4 disc brake setup. However, in case of front disc and rear drums, they are present.(It is not present in our i20 which has all 4 disc setup.Also not present in S-Cross).

The reason being, in case of disc brakes , the pads are almost in contact with the the rotors. In case of drums, this is not the case. Hence the time taken by the brake shoes in a drum to get in contact with the drum housing is more than the time taken for the pads to get in contact with the rotors. This results in the front brakes engaging first . The proportioning valve compensates this by allowing the rear brake to engage first . This is important for stability of the vehicle.The valve prevents force to the front brakes until the brake lines are pressurized to a certain level which allows the rear drums to engage first.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Why? I read around somewhere on the 'net that this is deliberate to prevent the car's front end from diving sharply on hard braking. However, this is not an authoritative answer by Toyota but at the Toyota Nation forum IIRC.

I can attest to that no-diving behaviour. The car maintains its poise even during emergency braking. The price one pays is the rear brake pads which are pretty expensive at about Rs 9K including labour.

Makes sense. Reign in the rear to control the dive in the front. Have you looked at aftermarket pads (EBC, Mintex, Akebono aftermarket or similar quality)? Could be cheaper yet better.

I am trying to find a replacement pad. To my bad luck I misplaced the old pads (ones i paid for not in warranty) after the braking issue seemed resolved and can't find it now to measure and find a suitable replacement. Search doesn't yield anything but there has to be another Toyota which uses a similar pad.

Originally Posted by R2D2

Gosh! I feel your disappointment. I would encourage you to visit the Toyota Nation forum to find out more about brake upgrades. They are pretty common place. Use a VPN as India and some countries have been banned due to the volume of spam received..or so they say.

I visit toyota nation occasionally using the proxy like you said, Pretty weird to ban a set of IPs coz he doesn't like them

Honestly I am disappointed. Its not just me who have brake problems. Many keep quiet coz its a Toyota and Toyota can't do no wrong. Or they say I am driving it wrong/fast. If it shouldn't be driven fast then why sell 170BHP and 360NM? 200NM and 110 BHP would have been enough and would have spared me the hassle of purchasing one. I would have put my cash elsewhere.

Right now I have templates of three big brake kits with me 4pot 304x26, 4pot 330x28 and 6pot 330x32 to check fitment issues. Since i have a 16" Crysta wheel I tried 304x26 at it fits inside, other two obviously does not. Need to lower the spare and check the other two inside the 17" wheel.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

The reason being, in case of disc brakes , the pads are almost in contact with the the rotors. In case of drums, this is not the case. Hence the time taken by the brake shoes in a drum to get in contact with the drum housing is more than the time taken for the pads to get in contact with the rotors. This results in the front brakes engaging first . The proportioning valve compensates this by allowing the rear brake to engage first . This is important for stability of the vehicle.The valve prevents force to the front brakes until the brake lines are pressurized to a certain level which allows the rear drums to engage first.

Got it. Since mine is an ABS front disc rear drum it probably has one.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Makes sense. Reign in the rear to control the dive in the front. Have you looked at aftermarket pads (EBC, Mintex, Akebono aftermarket or similar quality)? Could be cheaper yet better.

I am trying to find a replacement pad. To my bad luck I misplaced the old pads (ones i paid for not in warranty) after the braking issue seemed resolved and can't find it now to measure and find a suitable replacement. Search doesn't yield anything but there has to be another Toyota which uses a similar pad.

A good source for part #s is Boodmo. I am not sure which variant you have but you could check here Innova Crysta

Actually I bought a set of Bosch pads (OEMs are also Bosch) for the front and rear wheels to check if the AM work as well as the OEM at a substantial reduction in cost. This is just an experiment as I hesitate to compromise on safety so if the Bosch pads don't work as well as I expect they will be promptly replaced by OEM Bosch brake pads.

Brembo pads were also in consideration but the distributor in Goa said they were out of stock. EBCs not in stock for this particular car according to the distributor in Mumbai.

A quick look at the condition of my rear brake rotors just confirms the wear and tear is way higher. There's a noticeable 'lip' on the outer and inner circumference and minor scoring as the brake pads get worn out. They are down to 4 mm and service spec is min 3 mm. The front rotor on the other hand seems to doing fine, no lip, no scoring and the pads (according to the ASC in Hubli KA) have about 7 mm of material left.

Have set up a schedule with a FNG next week where I will do the replacements myself with a bit of help from some of the workshop blokes. They were highly amused seeing a car owner with salt & pepper hair getting his hands dirty during the DIY gearbox oil change. Not something they expect men of my age to do.

Honestly I am disappointed. Its not just me who have brake problems. Many keep quiet coz its a Toyota and Toyota can't do no wrong. Or they say I am driving it wrong/fast. If it shouldn't be driven fast then why sell 170BHP and 360NM? 200NM and 110 BHP would have been enough and would have spared me the hassle of purchasing one. I would have put my cash elsewhere.

I agree but TKM or any car manufacturer is/are known to make silly decisions. Hope they rectify this one. Not sure if the Crysta problem is due to the front brake materials i.e. poor quality or they are under sized and simply overwhelmed by a people carrying vehicle of this weight/size and power. Good brakes make a big difference to your confidence in the car whilst on the highway.

Right now I have templates of three big brake kits with me 4pot 304x26, 4pot 330x28 and 6pot 330x32 to check fitment issues. Since i have a 16" Crysta wheel I tried 304x26 at it fits inside, other two obviously does not. Need to lower the spare and check the other two inside the 17" wheel.

What make and model of AM brake sets are you choosing from?

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

My Bad. I should have been more specific.
Brake force proportioning valve are not present in case of all 4 disc brake setup. However, in case of front disc and rear drums, they are present.(It is not present in our i20 which has all 4 disc setup.Also not present in S-Cross).

Actually it's my turn to say 'my bad'. I checked under the hood and you were right, the car does not have a proportioning valve since it has disc brakes on all wheels. But the brake force is certainly more on the rear brakes as indicated by the faster wear and tear on both pads and rotors .

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by R2D2

A good source for part #s is Boodmo. I am not sure which variant you have but you could check here Innova Crysta

They don't have brake parts now, just checked. Should probably come in a while, but ordering and waiting for the parts is an uncertainty with boodmo. Waited for more than a month for a part for the i10 and then i cancelled the order.

Have set up a schedule with a FNG next week where I will do the replacements myself with a bit of help from some of the workshop blokes. They were highly amused seeing a car owner with salt & pepper hair getting his hands dirty during the DIY gearbox oil change. Not something they expect men of my age to do.

I am also on that salt and pepper trim, more pepper and less of salt though. But hey i don't feel it!

I agree but TKM or any car manufacturer is/are known to make silly decisions. Hope they rectify this one. Not sure if the Crysta problem is due to the front brake materials i.e. poor quality or they are under sized and simply overwhelmed by a people carrying vehicle of this weight/size and power. Good brakes make a big difference to your confidence in the car whilst on the highway.

They had a material problem with the first set of rotors, the factory fitted one I got with the car. 2nd set was also like pot metal. This 3rd set is actually a lot better and probably OK for a CHR.

What make and model of AM brake sets are you choosing from?

Once I finalise I will update it here. Currently there are three of them, they are not big names but seems to be OK.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Sankar

They don't have brake parts now, just checked. Should probably come in a while, but ordering and waiting for the parts is an uncertainty with boodmo. Waited for more than a month for a part for the i10 and then i cancelled the order.

If your service advisor is friendly tell him to get the pads & rotor part #s from their system after feeding in the VIN and then search for alternatives online. My car has alternatives by EBC, Brembo and Textar. You can also feed in the VIN at Boodmo and try your luck.

I've had a mixed experience with them. Bought 2 oil filters when the local dealer was acting pricey. One phone call to TKM brought that twit to his senses and he immediately agreed to sell me whatever parts I wanted. Ditto for the new dealer in town (Pune) Shaw Toyota although I didn't have to escalate it.

The thing these fellows don't realise is if they don't sell those spares the customer will get them from alternative sources. Keeping in mind the massive margins on spares it's truly their loss!

Coming back to Boodmo, I wanted 2 gearbox drain plugs and they messed up. A refund was processed promptly.

I am also on that salt and pepper trim, more pepper and less of salt though. But hey i don't feel it!

Well, I am more salt than pepper now

They had a material problem with the first set of rotors, the factory fitted one I got with the car. 2nd set was also like pot metal. This 3rd set is actually a lot better and probably OK for a CHR.

I would love to know who is the manufacturer of your car's brake parts. My guess is KBX. Getting this info was comparatively easy for my car as this data is available via Boodmo and other sources including markings on the parts themselves.

[GTO]

But the problem is brake judder and brake fade experienced during spirited driving and having to brake to shed speed (automatic) then accelerate and probably again brake withing a short while.

Wouldn't entirely blame Toyota as your car is also making a lot more power & torque than a regular Innova (Unichip + other mods).

And usually, modded cars are driven harder than stock ones .

Originally Posted by Sankar

Not only does this come with a weaker disc and drum setup but the front rotors are also smaller than the Fortuner's.

Now this is definitely not cool. I don't know why Toyota is so stingy with the brakes - shocking for a company that otherwise builds safe cars.

My previous pads lasted me around 10000 to 11000kms before I experienced brake judder and got it examined and found that only 2mm remaining on the pad. Now its only under 6000kms since the new pads and I am getting brake judder again.

.

I remember the Innova's manual mode being very conservative. Hence, it doesn't offer engine braking like the gearboxes of some other manufacturers (like say the Ford Endeavour). I'm a heavy user of engine braking and the aggressive tune of the gearbox in my car is one of the reasons the pads are lasting so long.

The need is actually a bigger rotor and a caliper to go with it, tackle the heat problem and it will be solved.

Can get the Fortuner's?

Originally Posted by R2D2

One thing I've never felt with my Altis is the lack of braking power. The brakes (this one is a Bosch braking system all through) are good even at highway speeds.

An advantage of buying a model sold in 1st-world countries. Furthermore, if it's a low volume model (which the Corolla is), it goes through relatively fewer technical changes before being sold in India.

[vigsom]

Sankar,

I'd say a single piston arrangement would suffice. Have you taken a look at the brake calipers and pads of the TLC, Prado and Rav4 for starters?

Or maybe try the ones on the Hexa or the Scorpio?

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by GTO

Wouldn't entirely blame Toyota as your car is also making a lot more power & torque than a regular Innova

A modded Crysta? That may explain why those brakes are getting overwhelmed. Even so 11K kms on a set of brake pads is IMHO very low for a car designed for long distance travel with a full load of passengers and luggage.

An advantage of buying a model sold in 1st-world countries. Furthermore, if it's a low volume model (which the Corolla is), it goes through relatively fewer technical changes before being sold in India.

Yes and I hesitate to buy tailored/made for India models for this precise reason. Experiments at the customer's cost. Buying an international model has advantages like the availability of standard parts overseas, modifications, accessories and forum based help.

Toyota Nation, 9Gcorolla and some other Toyota focused forums have been a great source of information and help to me. Although for some reason (supposedly spam, which I don't believe) TN decided to ban users from India and a few other countries from accessing their site.

[sagarpadaki]

I am sure the brake pads on Innova are shared with some other vehicle in the Toyota family. Get the OEM part number and search in google. You will get alternatives. Akebono makes some of the best ceramic pads. They have pads for almost all globally sold Toyota cars. See if the part number matches with any other Toyota car. Then you can order the corresponding ceramic pads.

This is their parts catalog. If you can find out which other global toyota car shares the same brake pad as innova then you can
try to find the equivalent ceramic pads over here
http://showmetheparts.com/akebono/