[rohnit91]

Hi,
This is my first post in a really long time, just wanted to point out the cons of owning a Keyless Ignition during floods.

My 2014, Honda City VX - M/T, is one of the many unfortunate cars that got completely submerged in water getting logged due to excessive rains coupled with a High Tide on the 29th August, 2017 in Mumbai.
I was travelling for work, when the climate decided to take control on Mumbai, surprising everybody with some brilliant rains comparable only to the 26th July mighty rainfall, that Mumbai has experienced.

My Honda City, clocked only 15,600KM (approximately, now that the ODOmeter wont light up), was parked on the side pavement of the road, when my neighboring watchman saw water levels on the road rising. He quickly decided to run up to my place, informed of the situation to my parents, who then handed him the car keys, after which he drove the car in my building (which was only a foot or two above the road level) and reversed it parking securely within the dedicated stilt parking allotted to me in my Building Premises.

However, this did not save the car from getting submerged in water, from the water logging that quickly escalated in the following 2 hours.

Upon returning the next day, (30th Aug), when flight operations resumed, I saw my car with All Doors, bonnet and trunk open, battery disconnected and removed, and the cleaner from my house and watchman, cleaning and still draining water out from the seats and flooring of the car.
Upon asking how much of the car was submerged, the watchman afraid to speak the truth.. maintained "only the tyres were completely submerged, in water". This made me certain the the car was not flooded from within, only the carpet must have gotten wet due to water collection, so its not an alarming situation. I went home as I was really tired.. Tried calling Honda Service center (HSS) to book an appointment for basic carpet removal and drying, along with a checkup & service. They answered saying they are only accepting cars that are coming towed due flood damage on that particular day, and other cars will be accepted on the following day. To which I agreed and decided to take it in the next day.

Woke up late in the morning of 31st Aug, decided to go have a look at my car. Installed and connected the battery, which decided to not function correctly. So I called a battery guy from Amaron who came with a spare one. Once he connected his, the car got unlocked with the key, and I stepped inside.
The car smelled damp and dingy from within. I touched the gear knob, it was all wet. I opened the Hand Rest compartment, and to my shock, it had water within it till the brim. I opened the glove box, and shockingly a bucketful of water flew out instantly, destroying completely the car manual, RC copy, and other papers kept within.

I quickly realised, the watchman wasnt speaking the truth, the car was definitely completely submerged in water. Upon calling him and asking him for the truth, he said, water had reached his "Waist Level" and he ran to the building roof (terrace) to keep dry, so he does not know.

Now, I panicked. i quickly got the battery disconnected, i did not want to switch on the ignition with the fear of ruining the Fuse Boards, or electricals, or electronics. I now called in HSS, who gave me the number of some towing van, who apparently had too many towing calls that day. I kept calling him, and he decided to reach my place at 4:30 in the evening.
He came to my building, and we pushed the car out, but damn, the watchman had left the steering locked, so the car would just about get out of the stilt, but would not move left, for the towing van to be in a position to attach to it, as there isnt much space in that corner of the building. Essentially, car was blocked there, destined to rot.

We called up HSS again, explaining the situation, who connected me to a technician having some sort of experience in this situation. He said, just connect the battery, put the ignition on, do not start the car, to release the steering lock. He maintained doing this, wont damage electricals or electronics, if they are already damaged. Following his instructions, connected the battery, now for the very first time, i saw the Blue Lights on the dial, but realised the ODOmeter wouldnt come on, and the green light on the ignition button stayed "ON'. Strange behavior but i didnt have an option, but to release the steering lock. However, pressing the ignition button did nothing, only flashing an orange icon, near the ODOmeter of what can be best described as a "KEY symbol with exclamation mark".

I realised the Keyless sensor isnt detecting the key inside the car. I called up HSS again, explaining the situation telling him the keyless sensor (if any present) has failed and my car does not detect the key inside the car.
He literally told me to try this "Sir, step out of the car, lock the car with the remote, then unlock it again, step inside and press the ignition key, now the key will be detected"


I decided to disconnect talking to HSS as they were of no help. i asked the towing to lift the front end of the car and we will some how manuever it out. To which the towing replied, his van cannot lift the car, as it is not equipped to lift the car, only pull it.

It was facepalm all over me. I felt helpless, and saw visions of my car rotting there forever. It was 7pm now in the evening, HSS people were no longer at workshops, I sent the van away, and I was very very angry.

Later someone gave me the number of a HSS technician who essentially is in charge of Honda cars breaking down, and has successfully revived a BRV keyless start issue damaged in flood. I saw ray of hope. I called him 20 times at 9:30pm till he answered his phone, explained him of my situation, he said he will come first thing next morning.
A man of his word he was, reached my building at 8am, saw the situation, stepped inside the car. He told me the BRVs issue was a dead battery in the FOB remote. He changed that and its Keyless function revived.
In my case, the Button Start unit has the FOB Detector built-in and it is not detecting the key inside the cabin or anywhere at all.
He said "even Honda has no idea of any fail-safe for the City Or BRV Model having keyless entry mechanism failure, and they have repeatedly asked honda to provide one incase of situations like this".

He suggested, to un-install the bumper, and the doors of the sides which my get damaged and potentially hinder the car from moving or being pushed out.
Since we had no other ideas, i asked him to do it and called a Towing van to lift the car from Front while a few of us push the rear "sideways" so the car slips out of the stilt, and gets pulled by the towing van.
He said the hydraulic towing has no space here, to extend the running board so that is not an option.
He quickly uninstalled the Doors of the left side, along with the bumper, charged me 1450 INR and left.
The towing guys lifted the front of the car, about 8 people pushed the cars rear-end so it slipped to its right side, and slowly and steadily the car was rescued out of the stilt parking (its potential graveyard), finally on its way for some health care.

Upon reaching the HSS, the advisor asked me to claim insurance, after checking I have flood cover, and engine protection, else nothing will be covered. So now I will chase the insurance company.

The HSS advisor suggested, the engine might have gotten locked up, and in such a scenario, it would cost me lot of money just on the engine if damaged.

But the car was never driven in water, nor did anyone try putting the car ON. Infact the debacle of the keyless was a savior in disguise with the car not starting. Would this not protect the engine from locking up, if not started?
I dont really know or have answers to that, he maintained. We will only know the problems once we start work on it.

So there is the story of my car. I dont really know what my options are at present. If anyone experienced in such situations could point out what should my approach be now.. kindly let me know.

[vishy76]

Originally Posted by rohnit91

Hi,

But the car was never driven in water, nor did anyone try putting the car ON. Infact the debacle of the keyless was a savior in disguise with the car not starting. Would this not protect the engine from locking up, if not started?
I dont really know or have answers to that, he maintained. We will only know the problems once we start work on it.

Really sorry to hear about this incident!

Don't know if your watchman is lying here too, but if the car was never started after water exceeded the so called "waist level", then you are safe. You should consider yourself lucky. The engine should not lock up if you haven't attempted to crank it with water inside the pistons, which I suspect you have not done.

I don't think you need to worry. Just don't forget to stick your nose around the service centre and see what they are upto. Might be a wise move to check on their progress.

Hope your car recovers soon..

Regards,
vishy

[R2D2]

Very sorry to hear this. The only silver lining to this dark cloud is you are mostly safe since you have a flood plus engine damage insurance cover!

I doubt the word of your watchman. It is a possibility that in order to park the car in the building stilt parking he started the engine and there was an intake of water into the cylinders which would mean engine damage i.e MAJOR expense. My advice is as follows:

a) Honda ASC may claim hydrostatic lock engine damage and rip you off. Make sure you are present in the workshop as long as possible when they are diagnosing your car.

b) If there is engine damage (and I sincerely hope not) make sure they remove and dismantle the engine from the bay in front of you. You'll need to take a call on how much time you can expend on this activity.

c) Please use your mobile phone to take photos of all parts extracted from the car

d) Assuming there is no engine damage there is also a chance vehicle electronics were affected or damaged. That includes the ECU, the ABS controller, the alternator, air bags, battery, headlamps and tail lights, blower motor among several others. Some parts can be cleaned and be made functional again but some will need replacement.

Wish you good luck in getting your car back on the road ASAP.

[rohnit91]

@vishy76,

The watch man is not lying of the water level when he brought the car inside the building. And at that time it indeed was 1/3rd the wheel level.
Another driver confirmed of this. He quickly drove his Cruz inside the building at that water level. Even his cruze, submerged in similar level of water, started in one self the next day.

The water reached waist level over the next couple of hours, after it was parked within the stilt.

Im overall very disappointed with Honda Keyless Not designing a by-pass for keyless ignition. Would have saved me a lot of trouble, and hassle. Along with a speedy run to the workshop.

Also, forgot the mention this fact.
Upon connecting the new battery, from amaron, the car's horn wouldnt go off. I quickly googled Teambhp for Horn Fuse to shut it.. but didnt get any correct results.
Also, The fuse box cover located in the Bonnet area, does not have any Map Or Sticker on the underside, for the locating or identifying the fuses.

The one located underneath the DASH, around the steering column, does not have a cover at all, leave the map.
I dont understand, why such aggressive cost saving approach adopted by Honda. I reckon, all earlier cars ive/we've owned has this.

Anyhow, after this, i quickly located the locations of soundhorns (near the left side behind the left fog lamp mesh, and another near the left tyre).
The battery guy, quickly pulled out the power sockets to those horns to stop the car from honking.

[GTO]

Agreed & a related thread (BMW: Inability to move from 'Park' to 'Neutral' with ignition on, but engine off).

My bhabhi's Grand i10 was 'all systems down' after the flood. It couldn't be moved at all because the steering wouldn't unlock. When Hyundai finally arrived to tow the car, they had to manually lift the front of the car & steer it out of the building.

It's at times like these when you miss the simple, mechanical ignition switch.

Originally Posted by rohnit91

Would this not protect the engine from locking up, if not started?

You should be okay since the engine wasn't started. Just ensure that you:

1. Call the workshop and tell them NOT to start the car.

2. Tip the watchman for saving your car. Must say, he was incredibly proactive & helpful.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by rohnit91

Also, forgot the mention this fact.
Upon connecting the new battery, from amaron, the car's horn wouldnt go off. I quickly googled Teambhp for Horn Fuse to shut it.. but didnt get any correct results.
Also, The fuse box cover located in the Bonnet area, does not have any Map Or Sticker on the underside, for the locating or identifying the fuses.

The one located underneath the DASH, around the steering column, does not have a cover at all, leave the map.
I dont understand, why such aggressive cost saving approach adopted by Honda. I reckon, all earlier cars ive/we've owned has this.

In your case, I think the BCM has packed up which is causing all the problem. Since the BCM is located at the same level as the pedals, water would have reached this level and would have messed up things. Even the horn control circuit is located here, which is why the horn was permanently stuck in closed position. The BCM is always powered by the battery irrespective of the state of the ignition. Hence, a brief amount of time under water is enough to mess up the circuits inside it.

Regarding the instrument cluster, if water indeed has reached to that level, the meter would be soiled. Do post some detailed pictures of your car if possible. It is sad to see a new car in this state though. Since there was water all the way up the glove box and the handrest console, it was definitely that high and not wheel level.

[GTO]

An update on my bhabhi's Grand i10 which suffered a similar problem.

She purred back to life! Sometimes, it's just best to let a car dry itself out under the sun. She rested for about 5 days. Workshop connected the battery up last evening and the car switched back on as if nothing had ever gone wrong. Of course, the flooding wasn't as bad as in your car and there was no water ingress into the engine.

Even the brake lights that were permanently activated (even after car was switched off) are working properly now. Still, we told the workshop to take her for a proper test-drive & ensure all is okay before giving it back.

[Mr.Boss]

Sorry to hear this and glad you have a proper insurance cover.

Originally Posted by rohnit91

The towing guys lifted the front of the car, about 8 people pushed the cars rear-end so it slipped to its right side, and slowly and steadily the car was rescued out of the stilt parking

Wish you had borrowed a couple (or at least one) of garage jacks. Though they weren't designed for the purpose of sliding / moving cars there is no much harm to use in this unfortunate circumstance.

[saket77]

Obviously you have gotten good advice of not starting the car before checking for any water ingress.
Regarding other problems, I have a strong contention that it could be a damaged MICU (Multiplex Control Unit), which also houses the under dash fuse box. Hondas have their BCM integrated in the gauge cluster. So, unless water has risen to the level of your instrument cluster, that should be okay. Another thing is that horns, lights and even key detection is a feature controlled by the MICU and since that is much lower placed, it could have packed up. In that case, you might be looking at a comparatively lower expenditure. Make sure to get this stuff checked before any other major overhaul.

Hope your car is back in action soon. Do update the thread with the progress.

Regards,
Saket.

[rohnit91]

So heres an update.

About a week back, HASS finally started work on my car. The car was practically rotting until now.

They decided to get the Start Button Assembly which houses the Car Key Detector. Without this, the Car doesnt start the ECM/BCM (apparently) and this needs to be ordered from Japan(?), what the advisor said. So I contacted the insurance and the surveyor went there with the approval.

Now, a week after this got ordered, and finally installed yesterday, HASS said, the car finally has spit out the "Codes" on connecting to the computer.
And now provided me with a "Re-Estimate" of the parts that HAVE TO BE REPLACED.

And this re-estimate has scared the living life out of me. All electronics need to be replaced. They have quoted (for now) 3 lakhs worth of parts to be replaced. And after this, they will re-assess, take the car for a trial and give another estimate if Deemed necessary.

This amount has put Me, The Insurance Surveyor and i feel even the Insurance company in a state of shock!

List includes (so far)
- Starter & AC compressor
- AC Control Panel and electronic assembly
- Engine Flashing Service (So far the cheapest costing Rs1443/-)
- Dashboard Removal & Re-Fitting (1770/-)
- Carpet replacement.
- Break Cleaning
- Music System Replacement
- Speakers and Tweeters replacement
- B Level Flooding (?)
- SRS Unit not working
- Door Wires Replacement
- Break Pedal Switch replacement
- Clutch Pedal Switch Replacement
- Accelerator Pedal Switch Replacement
- Wiring Harness Replacement
- Power Window Harness Replacement
- Central Locking replacement
- Combination Switch Replacement
- Fan Motor Replacement
- Cluster Meter Replacement
- Push Start SMART Unit replacement (not sure why this is here again)
- MICU Replacement (as saket77) mentioned..
- Steering Lock Switch Replacement (30K for F**K Sakes)
- Steering Control /Check
- Labor Charges
- Gee Eshh Teee (Service advisors Favorite three letters)

As im out of town, ill follow up on this in the upcoming week. But this has stressed me out to a new extent.

P.S: Please stay away from Arya honda

[OSH]

Originally Posted by rohnit91

So heres an update.
- Starter & AC compressor

These components usually 'short' i.e. start sparking if they come in contact with execesive water, that is the reason people advise not to drench the starter motor while cleaning the engine bay. Your car was submerged in water, so that would have caused even more damage.

- AC Control Panel and electronic assembly

This is the touch screen ACC panel which is gone due to being under water, even our touch screen phones stop working if they fall in water, so this panel is no different.

- Engine Flashing Service

This will be something that needs to be done because the entire electrical system of the car is being ripped apart/changed. It can also be the engine tuning service or for removing the fault codes.

- Dashboard Removal & Re-Fitting

This is quite obvious to carry out the said replacements

- Carpet replacement.

Now this is something that could have been avoided, but I think beige carpets ~ muddy rain water ~ car lying as it is for a month would have left the carpet beyond the scope of cleaning.

- Break Cleaning

If the car had not moved in the last month, the brakes will be stuck, so again this is quite obvious

- Music System Replacement

Electrical component ~ in water and it is shot, you can go aftermarket for this and not buy the OEM system.

- Speakers and Tweeters replacement

OEM speakers will have paper cones, they will be useless after being under water for so long. If the tweaters were also affected then the level of water inside the car was very high, I don't doubt any of the replacements.

- B Level Flooding

This can be a coding system the guys at the service center use to diffrentiate the cars, something like 'A level' can be flood affected car without mechanical/electrical faults, 'B level' may be flood affected cars with electrical problems but no mechanical problems and so on.

- SRS Unit not working

Component lies behind the dash and also under the bonnet so its another component that must have failed due to water.

- Door Wires Replacement

Even though wires will not need replacement, the connectors would have corroded, service centers will never repair so they are changing the entire wire loom of the door.

- Break Pedal Switch replacement/Clutch Pedal Switch Replacement/Accelerator Pedal Switch Replacement

These are sensors present near the pedals itself, they are responsible for the stop start system/brake lights working etc. They were under water so gone.

- Wiring Harness Replacement

Same as the door wires that need replacing

- Power Window Harness Replacement

After all it is a circuit board, so water and it's gone.

- Central Locking replacement

This should not be related to water ingress, maybe the damage was caused by the towing van folks.

- Combination Switch Replacement

It was under water for a long time so you cannot doubt even this part.

- Fan Motor Replacement

Again corrosion can be the cause as the car was idle for over a month.

- Cluster Meter Replacement

Again water ~ gone.

- Push Start SMART Unit replacement

Can be another part of the same system that they replaced earlier, check the part number/price to be sure.

- MICU Replacement

Saket77 had predicted this even before the service center gave their report, so again there is no doubt here.

- Steering Lock Switch Replacement

Can be a component damaged by the the towing guys when they tried every possible way to get the car out of the parking.

- Steering Check

Will be a checkup after they dismantle the entire console to replace the combination switches/meter cluster and all.

- Labor Charges

Obvious

- Gee Eshh Teee

Even more obvious.

P.S: Please stay away from Arya honda

While I understand that a 3 lakh bill would have shocked you, but passing such a comment is not correct. I say this because Arya Honda has not been proved to have cheated you in anyway. I am in no way related to Arya Honda but my cars do go to them since the start and I have never returned disappointed. They are one of the oldest dealers of Mumbai and I am gratefull to them for helping me keep my cars 'showroom fresh' even after so many kms/years.

You can speak to Mr. Farooq or Mr. Vikas they are two of the best SAs at the dockyard branch, these guys were transfered from the sewree branch recently. If your car is in sewree, speak to the AGM Mr. Nilesh, he is quite helpfull and will even get a technician to explain why each and every component is being replaced.

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Thanks!

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Hi rohnit91,

Sorry to know about the sufferings of your car (and yourself). I hope your car gets to life with minimal expenses and time.

Now that you have seen that your car may get submerged in water-logged parking, you can buy four jack stands (as high as possible) and a hydraulic garage-jack which can lift the car up to the stand height. You can keep these in a locked storage in your parking. In the event of heavy rains, you can lift the car and place it on the four stands. This will cost you something but treat this as the real one-time insurance premium.