[deathwalkr]

Got the clutch replaced for my Fiat Linea T-Jet at 1.1Lakh KMs.

Cost was Rs.26K.

Car feels anew again

[ZMG]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

If you read the many pages in this thread, you'll see the opinion that there's no point waiting for this to settle down, it would only make things worse. A well done clutch job should be completely judder free right from the start. I think you should insist on a fix immediately, and/or consult a more competent garage.

I did go through multiple pages and yes I understand this is just a bad job.
I spoke to the owner of the fng and asked him to use lathe on the flywheel. He said if that fails, we'll need a new flywheel.
How expensive can a new flywheel be ?
Also anything else why the car could be juddering so much?
Anything to do with the slave cylinder?

Thanks a lot in advance

[ZMG]

Originally Posted by ZMG

I did go through multiple pages and yes I understand this is just a bad job.
I spoke to the owner of the fng and asked him to use lathe on the flywheel. He said if that fails, we'll need a new flywheel.
How expensive can a new flywheel be ?
Also anything else why the car could be juddering so much?
Anything to do with the slave cylinder?

Thanks a lot in advance

Hi All

My car is Swastika workshop in Bangalore again.
The mechanic is telling the excessive vibration is due to fault in slave cylinder.
Is that possible?
Or he is just experimenting ?
He is not keen on opening the gear box and machine the flywheel.
I'm beginning to lose trust.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by ZMG

I did go through multiple pages and yes I understand this is just a bad job.
I spoke to the owner of the fng and asked him to use lathe on the flywheel. He said if that fails, we'll need a new flywheel.
How expensive can a new flywheel be ?
Also anything else why the car could be juddering so much?
Anything to do with the slave cylinder?

Thanks a lot in advance

Flywheel may not be that expensive for a zen.

However, the reason why the mechanic is reluctant to machine the flywheel IMO is because of the time involved. To remove the gear box and ancillary suspension bits is going to take a couple of hours' time. And machining the flywheel at a lathe is going to cost some more. And there is no guarantee that the machined flywheel is going to solve the problem. I do not think clutch slave cylinder has got anything to do with the juddering.

My suggestion is to get the price of the flywheel from MGP and if it is in your budget, just get it installed. This way there is no guessing where the problem is. Even with new flywheel if the vibration is present then clearly the issue is somewhere else, and the mechanic should figure it out.

[ZMG]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Flywheel may not be that expensive for a zen.

However, the reason why the mechanic is reluctant to machine the flywheel IMO is because of the time involved. To remove the gear box and ancillary suspension bits is going to take a couple of hours' time. And machining the flywheel at a lathe is going to cost some more. And there is no guarantee that the machined flywheel is going to solve the problem. I do not think clutch slave cylinder has got anything to do with the juddering.

My suggestion is to get the price of the flywheel from MGP and if it is in your budget, just get it installed. This way there is no guessing where the problem is. Even with new flywheel if the vibration is present then clearly the issue is somewhere else, and the mechanic should figure it out.

The car is a 2004 Honda City and not a zen.
I feel he is trying to change the slave cylinder just to pull a fast one on me.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by ZMG

The car is a 2004 Honda City and not a zen.
I feel he is trying to change the slave cylinder just to pull a fast one on me.

Sorry, my bad, I did not read the car model properly.

Yes, I also think he is pulling a fast one on you with the slave cylinder.

This is the flywheel for your car. Costs a tidy sum
https://boodmo.com/catalog/part-flywheel_comp-6688508/

Offer the mechanic that you will bear the cost of machining the flywheel and he take care of removal and refitment of clutch assembly. That way he may agree

[ZMG]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

Replaced the slave cylinder, and the problem is fixed now. Verified under various city conditions for few days. Thanks Sunny!

Hi PearlJam

Were you feeling the vibrations or juddering even during idling?

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by ZMG

Hi PearlJam

Were you feeling the vibrations or juddering even during idling?

No, idling was perfectly fine. From my earlier post, it was only this - I sometimes face a shudder when going at extremely slow speeds in the 1st gear (like in crawling traffic). This happens during half clutch only, and once the vehicle picks up speed, everything is perfect. This got solved by the slave cylinder change, and it's been fine ever since.

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by rahul_intlad

...Basically smoke starts coming out from the bonnet...

I live in the hills and so I encounter the steep inclined traffic jams every day.
There is a state of equilibrium that is achieved by a combination of half-clutching and corresponding throttle position. It's beautiful how the vehicle stalls on an incline without applying the brakes (neither foot nor hand) and with the engine still running. The feeling is great - the habit isn't. People do this all the time. It is called "riding the clutch". They purportedly do it because perhaps it is convenient.

The only time the clutch is supposed to be "slipped" (read as half-clutching) is when we require the vehicle to roll from a standstill state. Never practice this habit otherwise, never.

Way back in May 1999, when I first received my driving license, I still remember that the driving test involved completely stopping the vehicle on a steep slope, turning the engine off and getting off the vehicle. The car should not roll back. The test then required that we re-enter the vehicle and get it to move uphill.

Now, two attempts (max) were given and the amount of vehicle roll-back (i.e. the distance that the vehicle moves backwards downhill before it starts to move forward) was measured accurately using a measuring tape. If this value exceed 4 inches, the test was deemed to be failed and the driving licence was denied. Due to this, I and my contemporaries developed a habit to use the foot brake, clutch and accelerator all three at the same time to get the vehicle rolling from standstill - a habit that I hold onto even to this very day. If the vehicle rolls back even a bit, or if I smell a bit of the clutch pads burning - it greatly disappoints me even today.

Use the brakes, please. Don't torture the clutch plate.

I don't know how driving tests go these days.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

Now, two attempts (max) were given and the amount of vehicle roll-back (i.e. the distance that the vehicle moves backwards downhill before it starts to move forward) was measured accurately using a measuring tape.

Old family story was that, when teaching my mother to do a hill start, my dad told her that he had put her favourite hat just behind the back wheel.

There should, no, there must be no rollback, and if the technique is properly learned and practised, one can rely on it. Especially in this country, one might need to do this with another vehicle half an inch from your rear bumper!

Like this:

1. Hand on handbrake, pull up, press button, ready to go.
2. Increase revs, you know how much from the times as a learner when it failed.
3. Engage clutch until the front of the car lifts.
4. Release handbrake, foot off clutch, accelerate away up the hill.

Sure, doing it dozens of times in an uphill traffic jam makes one wish for AT! But, practised, it is almost just one smooth sequence of events.

Use the brakes, please. Don't torture the clutch plate.

You can... but it will cost dearly.

I don't know how driving tests go these days.

For me in Chennai, it was barely a 100 metres in a straight line.
(I think the guy knew I already had a foreign driving licence, but, honestly, I don't think it got much harder for anyone.)

So what would people do if there was an un-wake-able drunk on the road just behind the car? Ooooh... tough question. I believe in myself. But stuff, mechanical and human, does fail. I think I'd like a stone behind the back wheel!

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Like this:

1. Hand on handbrake, pull up, press button, ready to go.

Sadly, this wouldn't suffice for me because I drive heavily laden pickup trucks too. For me, it is the foot brake always. Handbrake is simply not reliable. Often times, the handbrake simply snaps under load. It is therefore aptly called "parking brake" and we never park our cars in neutral, do we? It's the engine compression that actually applies the brakes to our parked cars.

For my truck, I did try the hand brake (and it does work) because it's air brakes but you can't teach old dogs new tricks. Besides, it is very difficult to use just one foot and reach both the brakes and the accelerator pedal on trucks but that's how somehow I have been doing it. In trucks the torque available without touching the accelerator pedal is enormous too. The key is to "be quick" as in - react in microseconds.

This is how I have been executing it for all these years:

1. Right heel on brake pedal, with its toes on the accelerator, clutch pedal fully depressed by left foot, gear lever engaged (1st gear for 2WD and 4H or 2nd gear if 4L is engaged)
2. Slowly release the clutch until the vehicle starts vibrating (to be honest, I actually can simply feel it instinctively by experience - engine rpm changes, subtle sound change, pedal response, etc.)
3. Let go off the brake and that's it. Remember, the accelerator pedal remains depressed all the time (need the torque which in turn needs fuel).

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

For me in Chennai, it was barely a 100 metres in a straight line.

I know that you are joking. That was a good one, though.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

I know that you are joking. That was a good one, though.

(Sadly, I'm not joking at all about the test. The tester took two of us. One young woman drove to the end of the road, turned right, and turned the car around. The tester then ask me just to drive back, and asked what car I'm used to driving. I felt bad for her: I could have done that 3-point turn blindfold. Mind you, she did it ok.)

Your hill-start method is what my mum used to call "heel'n'toe." Very necessary if the handbrake has failed or is unreliable.

Yes, I do park with handbrake alone, but everywhere here is flat. My Polo hand brake is actually very poor. Keep on trying to get my FNG to find a way of improving it. If I have to stop on the hump outside my gate, absolutely I stop the engine and put the car in gear.

I probably wear my clutch more getting into my house than I do on the rest of the journey. It is steep, but I try to maintain the right technique.

[x-o-b]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

(Sadly, I'm not joking at all about the test.

Are you saying that we got people driving on the streets without actually "passing" the test? Well, this is "tragic" at worst. Who hires these incompetent licensing officers/driving test officials? I would sack them immediately for not doing their job. If thousands are killed in car accidents, I will blame these officials for it and put them behind bars before the actual driver that caused the accident.

I will quote an excerpt from the "LICENSING OF DRIVERS OF MOTOR VEHICLES" for road test as published and stipulated by the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways, Government of India:

Clause 15. (3) (f) stop and re-start the vehicle on a steep upward incline making proper use of the hand-brake or of the throttle and the foot-brake without any rolling back, turn right and left corners correctly and make proper use of the rear-view mirror before signalling;

Link to the full document is here.

Trust me, a vast majority of accidents happen simply due to failure to adhere to one of the several points enumerated in clause 15 which the driving test, if properly conducted, should have taken care of. I implore everyone reading through this thread to kindly revisit the clause 15 once, please.


In my case, the test official had a full check-list with him which he ticked away after being fully satisfied with. Hill start was just one item in the list. By the way, cars with hill-assist feature are disallowed during the test.

Originally Posted by x-o-b

Link to the full document is here.

I just realized that, given the significance of clause 15 and for the benefit of all members' easy reading, I will copy and post the contents of the entire clause 15 here itself in addition to posting the link to the full document in my previous post. Here it goes:-

15. Driving test.—(1) No person shall appear for the test of competence to drive unless he
has held a learner's licence for a period of at least 30 (thirty) days.
(2) The test of competence to drive referred to in sub-section (3) of section 9 shall be
conducted by the licensing authority or such other person as may be authorised in this behalf
by the State Government in a vehicle of the type to which the application relates.

(3) The applicant shall satisfy the person conducting the test that he is able to—

(a) Adjust rear-view mirror;
(b) Take suitable precautions before starting the engine.
(c) Move away safely and smoothly straight ahead at an angle, while at the same time engaging all gears until the top gear is reached;
(d) To change to the lower gears quickly from the top gear when the traffic conditions warrant such a change.
(e) Change quickly to lower gears when driving downhill;
(f) Stop and re-start the vehicle on a steep upward incline, making proper use of the hand-brake or of the throttle and the foot-brake without any rolling back, turn right and left corners correctly and make proper use of the rear-view mirror before signalling;
(g) Overtake, allow to be overtaken, meet or cover the path of other vehicles safely and take an appropriate course of the road with proper caution, giving appropriate signals;
(h) Give appropriate traffic signals at the appropriate time, in clear and unmistakable manner by hand or by electrical indicators fitted to the vehicle;
(i) Change the lanes with proper signals and with due care;
(j) Stop the vehicle in an emergency or otherwise, and in the latter case, bring it to rest at an appropriate course on the road safely, giving appropriate signals;
(k) In the case of vehicle having a reverse gear, driving the vehicle backwards, reverse it into a limited opening either to the right or left under control and with reasonable accuracy;
(l) Cause the vehicle to face in the opposite direction by means of forward and reverse gears;
(m) Take correct and prompt action on the signals given by traffic signs, traffic lights, traffic controllers, policemen and take appropriate action on signs given by other road users;
(n) Act correctly at pedestrian crossings, which is not regulated by traffic lights or traffic police, by giving preference to persons crossing the roads;
(o) Keep well to the left in normal driving;
(p) Regulate speed to suit varying road and traffic conditions;
(q) Demonstrate general control of the vehicle by confident steering and smooth gear changing and braking as and when necessary;
(r) Make proper use of the rear-view mirror before signalling, beginning manoeuvring, moving away, altering the course to overtake, turning right or stopping;
(s) Use proper side when driving straight, turning right, turning left and at junction of the road;
(t) Make proper use of accelerator, clutch, gears, brakes (hand and foot) steering and horn;
(u) Anticipate the actions of pedestrians, drivers of other vehicles and cyclists;
(v) Take precautions at crossroads and on road junctions with regard to:—
(i) Adjustment of speed on approach,
(ii) Proper use of rear-view mirror,
(iii) Correct positioning of the vehicle before and after turning to the right or left,
(iv) Avoidance of cutting right hand corners,
(v) Looking right, left and right again before crossing or emerging;
(w) Concentrate in driving without his attention being distracted and to demonstrate the presence of mind;
(x) Show courtesy and consideration for the safety and convenience of other road users, such as pedestrians, drivers of other motor vehicles or cyclists.

Additional personal note: Please don't honk, especially at people. Don't honk otherwise too, unless absolutely necessary. Honking is the most disrespectful thing you could ever do as a driver. Drive like a human not an animal behind the steering wheel.

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think we are getting too far off topic for the the thread, which is about clutches, which rightly includes how driving style and skill affects them. How, to some people, the clutch is a consumable, whereas others will almost never, even if they keep a car for years and years, need a replacement.

Originally Posted by x-o-b

Are you saying that we got people driving on the streets without actually "passing" the test?

Let me close off my side by saying yes, and I thought this was commonly understood on the site, with the ease of getting a driving licence being regularly one of the things blamed for the general state of of driving in the first place.

Here's a good thread (Share your driving license test experience) to continue, I'll take the quotes there.

[deehunk]

Originally Posted by x-o-b

I will quote an excerpt from the "LICENSING OF DRIVERS OF MOTOR VEHICLES" for road test as published and stipulated by the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways, Government of India:

Link to the full document is here.

Trust me, a vast majority of accidents happen simply due to failure to adhere to one of the several points enumerated in clause 15 which the driving test, if properly conducted, should have taken care of. I implore everyone reading through this thread to kindly revisit the clause 15 once, please.

Sorry bro, in my experience I can say that most of the driving tests for private vehicles are for name sake, else we would not see so many morons on the road struggling to drive on slope roads or occupying wrong lanes on highways. The clutch wear out issue is purely because of driving skills, but have seen clutch issues at an earlier stage on Hyundai, Renault or Maruti vehicles compared to a Mahindra or Tata cars. I think even on Skoda or VW vehicles, clutch lasts for at least 55K kms.