[Divya Sharan]

What a coincidence this thread!
Only a couple of days back did I ponder over the topic. My car is a highway (only) drive. So it frequently sees up to 3500 rpm. It's a Fiat 1.4 petrol.
But this time I was in a good mood and after driving for about 40 km I thought why not redline for a while and listen to the lovely exhaust note!
1st gear 6k rpm, 2nd and 3rd all the way till 6.5k rpm and repeat for 50 km - it made the FE drop down to single digits and the car started pulling clean from low(er) revs.
It has nearly done 15k in as many months so I do not think carbon deposit may be an issue (yet).
I feel it's just the ECU learning (and unlearning) driver's inputs from time to time.

[gypsyFreak]

I too agree with Italian tune-up.

Case 1, my Scorpio once a month gets a highway or else it is just driving in Bangalore city traffic. After highway drives, it pulls easily in 2nd gear from road humps. The same vehicle becomes tougher while negotiating city humps during daily commute.

Case 2, Suzuki access. Driven by my wife very sedately, tends to switch off at low rpms. So, last weekend, i took it for a italian tune-up. It works much better now.
Even my father used to tell me that our HH Splendour pulls better after i had ridden it. I was in college those days, so redlining was the norm..

[bansal.sushant]

Can someone please elaborate on this? My cars are run within city traffic only.
Does running at a lower gear so as to achieve higher rmp work (since it's tough to find a road where I can achieve higher speed) ?

Also, is this true for a CNG vehicle also? Couldn't find any resource pertaining to that.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by bansal.sushant

Can someone please elaborate on this? My cars are run within city traffic only.Does running at a lower gear so as to achieve higher rmp work (since it's tough to find a road where I can achieve higher speed) ?

Also, is this true for a CNG vehicle also? Couldn't find any resource pertaining to that.

If you're happy with the car and its response and if you feel nothing is lacking then don't even think about all these "Italian tune-up" procedures.. keep running it the way you always have. Running a lower gear in a higher RPM is not advisable in any situation except when needing a quick surge during an emergency so that's out as well.

CNG's carbon production is much lesser than that of gasolene, but in principle since it works much the same way as a gasolene engine it might take much longer for carbon deposits to form in CNG's case. In anycase such tune-ups are only required if you feel the engine is sluggish compared to before.

I've often seen that after a long-ish drive the engine does become more settled, smoother and eager to move but in most cases it's due to the engine reaching ideal operating temperature than carbon deposits being removed. If you do know for sure that carbon deposits are hindering performance you need to use a good fuel line cleaning solution (specifically for petrol or diesel) and go for a drive to Noida/Gurgaon and return. The changes may be less than noticeable during city-drives though.

The origin of the Italian tuneup comes from Ferrari. Owners would drive their cars infrequently and never run them hard, which causes the engine to build up enough carbon inside to affect performance. Mechanics would perform a "tuneup" by driving several laps around a race track to get the engine hot enough to burn out the built up carbon. Cars before the advent of modern engine lubricants and fuels, often had a 'de-coke' by hand, after removing the cylinder head, as a scheduled service operation.

Source :Wiki

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

I've often seen that after a long-ish drive the engine does become more settled, smoother and eager to move but in most cases it's due to the engine reaching ideal operating temperature than carbon deposits being removed. If you do know for sure that carbon deposits are hindering performance you need to use a good fuel line cleaning solution (specifically for petrol or diesel) and go for a drive to Noida/Gurgaon and return. The changes may be less than noticeable during city-drives though.

Do you mean to say that the engine does not reach ideal operating temperature in city drives?

[Swapnil4585]

Italian tune up. Will it work for me?

After a strictly zero use for around 4 months, I have started using my car for city runabouts. I got the radiator fully flushed, cleaned and coolant refilled. Thereafter I got the petrol tank cleaned. In the mean time, I have an error P0037 which is due to no downstream sensor on my car. I am unable to procure the correct part and the work is therefore pending. In all this, I have a long highway trip with family scheduled for the weekend.

Should I do a tune up? I can go for a short 50 km run before the actual trip. 3rd gear at 3500 rpm? Advisable?

[srini1785]

Italian tune up is something like a stradivarius violin. Supposed to be the most melodious sounding violin in planet made by a famous (Italian) violin maker of the same name. Originals sell for around $15Million.

Analytical experiments have since debunked the theory that the notes on a Stradivarius are more perfect than a well tuned $50 Violin. In spite of all evidence the craze does not subside. Its all in the mind.

BTT, True for cars of yore, some redlining does have some positive performance changes, especially on older turbo petrol engines like P-930 , since it clears air paths and helps in turbo tuning, in modern ECU controlled EFI cars it has no specific performance enhancing effect.

[theGeekyLad]

A quick skim through this short thread reveals exiguous info about diesel engines. I always (even on highways) drive my 2019 Innova (20,000 km old) super sedately. The vehicle barely sees 2000+ revs unless there's a dire need, as while negotiating ghat-like ascents when I ensure the fallback RPMs are within the power band.

I noticed that I lurk around at the peak torque RPM which being ~1400 revs for the most part unless it's a highway where I'm usually at 1900 revs with cruise on. Do you think this engine would suffer from carbon build up for my driving manners?

While at that, during my long drives (outstation road-trips over 1600 km) I usually cruise at around 1800-1900 revs for the most part. During the run-in / break-in period, I'd been the most assiduous driver and tried not to stick to the same RPM for long, but does that matter now? Is cruising at a fixed RPM for a long time a bad thing to do?

[Crankshaft]

My friends and I planned a long drive and dinner outing. We decided on a new mandi place on Hosur Road, about 30-40 km outside Bangalore city. The mandi was decent, and while some friends smoked, I took a walk with my non-smoking gang.

After we said our goodbyes and headed home, my car(2018 Diesel Nexon AMT) speeding at 90 km/h, suddenly stalled and slowed down. Despite my attempts to accelerate, there was no response. I quickly steered it to the service lane on the left and noticed a warning sign for servicing I had never seen before. I turned off the car and restarted it, and it seemed fine, so I continued home without much thought. I did not face this issue for another 12K Km.

However, the same issue occurred again while dropping my in-laws to the airport—a rather embarrassing moment. I realized my car service was due for 45K and decided I had to address the problem, especially since I was planning a trip with my family during the Dashera break. I booked an appointment with Adishakti and took the car to the service center. The service representative offered two solutions:

1. Replace the entire fuel injection system, costing about ₹1.5 to ₹2 lakh.
2. Perform a fuel injection cleanup for ₹4,000.

Obviously I opted for the second option. Upon delivery, the service rep explained that the issue might be due to dust particles, carbon, or fuel impurities. I recalled a video about the Italian Tune-Up a technique apparently practiced by Ferrari mechanics, hence the name. The idea is simple, put your car in 3rd gear, maintain a constant speed of 80 km/h for 30 to 60 seconds, and repeat this 3 to 5 times.

Our trip was planned for two weeks after the service but was delayed by another two weeks. On October 31, we left Bangalore at around 6:30 AM for Mangalore. However, the traffic from Peenya to Nelamangala was relentless. As we finally hit the Hassan road, the car slowed down again, indicating the cleaning done during servicing hadn't worked. I had also added Diesel Purge 1811 from Liqui Moly after the service for the previous tank fill, but it was of no use.

Time to test the theory, I decided to try the Italian Tune-Up. To my surprise, I haven’t faced the problem since then. It might be too early for a verdict, but it seems to work.

If you face a similar issue, I recommend trying this method. But first, watch this video to understand its advantages and disadvantages:

https://youtu.be/EGEYweimfrA

[vishy76]

While it's good to see you issue is resolved, this is not the sort of symptoms which demand an Italian tuneup.

One must understand firstly, that an Italian tuneup isn't a technique which is used to remedy such severe symptoms. It's just something you do to largely ensure your catcon remains soot free to a large extent and carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (some reports suggest carbon deposits might increase at higher RPMs than decrease in diesels) are burnt off to the max extent possible. Beyond this, there really isn't much to it.

What you have faced is clearly an issue pertaining to the CR system, possibly low fuel rail pressure. This might be due to a clogged fuel filter or it might just be dirty diesel. The CR system cleaners you used in this case have helped. I also hope the dealer has done due diligence and changed the fuel filter while "cleaning the CR system", though honestly, cleaning a CR system is something you just do by putting a purge or injector cleaner into the tank and swapping out the fuel filter (inspecting it is also a good idea). I don't think it's worth 4k.

[Sensible_Speed]

Originally Posted by vishy76

One must understand firstly, that an Italian tuneup isn't a technique which is used to remedy such severe symptoms. It's just something you do to largely ensure your catcon remains soot free to a large extent and carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (some reports suggest carbon deposits might increase at higher RPMs than decrease in diesels) are burnt off to the max extent possible. Beyond this, there really isn't much to it.

What you have faced is clearly an issue pertaining to the CR system, possibly low fuel rail pressure. This might be due to a clogged fuel filter or it might just be dirty diesel. The CR system cleaners you used in this case have helped. I also hope the dealer has done due diligence and changed the fuel filter while "cleaning the CR system", though honestly, cleaning a CR system is something you just do by putting a purge or injector cleaner into the tank and swapping out the fuel filter (inspecting it is also a good idea). I don't think it's worth 4k.

I agree wholly with this. High rpm in a compression-ignition cycle will generate more soot in the long run. I would suggest taking it back to the mechanic and checking the following components-
1. The fuel pumps. There are two here. One for CR pressure and one in the tank. Best case scenario, a loose connector and easy fix. Worst case, your pumps are on the way out and a fat repair bill stands in your way.

2. The filters. Fuel fouling still seems quite prevalent in diesel in India. Check to see any debris or matter caught in it. Fixing this isn't as complex as the fuel pumps.

3. Turbo. This is probably not the problem, but advisable to have a health check-up anyways. The turbo acting up will generally show symptoms immediately, like loss of power and sooty exhaust fumes. Turbo failure rates in the Nexon diesel have been few and far in between, but noticeable in numbers. But this happens only after around 120,000 kms, when the car has run a lot in a short period of time. A new turbo will cost you a bomb to fix.

[Crankshaft]

Firstof all thanks for the insights, I am not saying you guys are wrong but here is my reasoning:

1. If it's a fuel pump issue don't you think it should be a daily occurrence?
2. I did get a new fuel filter in my 45K service, so this should have resolved it ideally.
3. Turbo kicks in above 2K rpm, and works like a charm. One of the things I like about it so doubt this is an issue.

It can be a Common Rail system issue, however I don't know the symptoms. And if this is it then it will definitely cost a lot to fix.

[Bsilver]

Originally Posted by Crankshaft

1. If it's a fuel pump issue don't you think it should be a daily occurrence?
2. I did get a new fuel filter in my 45K service, so this should have resolved it ideally.
3. Turbo kicks in above 2K rpm, and works like a charm. One of the things I like about it so doubt this is an issue.

Your problem has nothing to do with Italian Tune up. This tune up just clears out carbon deposits due to the high temperatures at the higher loads. A stalling car and lose of power, cannot be rectified using this, it is not a repair method. If at all the problem occurs again, monitor all fuel pressures using a log file at different loads, and compare whether the request by ECU is getting delivered or not. Do post a scan of the vehicle, if it has stalled there would be some error codes regarding it, which may have been captured at the ASS, one may contact them and get the scan report. Does the issue replicate when the higher RPMs are reached in lower gears or not? You may update if at all you encounter the issue again.

Happy Motoring!

[Crankshaft]

Originally Posted by Bsilver

Your problem has nothing to do with Italian Tune up. This tune up just clears out carbon deposits due to the high temperatures at the higher loads. A stalling car and lose of power, cannot be rectified using this, it is not a repair method. If at all the problem occurs again, monitor all fuel pressures using a log file at different loads, and compare whether the request by ECU is getting delivered or not. Do post a scan of the vehicle, if it has stalled there would be some error codes regarding it, which may have been captured at the ASS, one may contact them and get the scan report. Does the issue replicate when the higher RPMs are reached in lower gears or not? You may update if at all you encounter the issue again.

Happy Motoring!

Spoke to the SA they don't have to report now but it seems the error codes were related to injector codes. Will try to get that report next time I go and share it here.

Fingers crossed ��

[BullettuPaandi]

While browsing something entirely different, I got introduced to this 'The Italian tune-up' method. I wrote this post primarily for a different thread (Is break-in really required for modern bikes?) for a different reason. But only at the last moment did it occur to me check for separate thread about this, which of course there is.

Before I read posts here, I took it to good old fashioned Wikipedia, to learn what this 'Italian tune-up' is. Here's a screenshot of a book that I found via Wikipedia, that suggests this method, among many others, to fix engine 'run-on'- a condition where the engine continues to run even after the ignition is turned off, by picking up heat from hot spots (carbon deposits in this case) and continuing combustion.



The book is from 1993, and the issue sounds like a bit of a predecessor of the 'higher compression ratio' issue, drivebyfire has explained in this helpful post:

Originally Posted by drivebyfire

[...]
ECUs can go leaner and leaner to promote fuel economy and reduce emissions. Then how can carbon build up inside at all in the first place??

Fact is that modern ECUs learn to respond to required output vs driver input over time. A high demand driver input re-trains the ECU to change air-fuel mixtures accordingly so that the engine produces the required output. Not only are the air-fuel mixtures changed but also parameters such as throttle response and ignition timing. This is why the "Italian tune up" feels to have worked in modern engines as well.

This is also why for some cars it works and for some it does not - as it depends on type of ECU as well as individual driver.
[...]

I think, I have something to add to this; hence this post. I'm only familiar with motorcycles; so, I'll stick to what I know.

I may be am just stating the obvious, but it is better to clarify for the uninitiated- It is not that carburetors can't go as lean as ECUs; only that ECUs offer more granular control, and can go leaner when needed, and still provide a cool and knock-free ride with a richer mixture, better than a carb with a similar lean setting would.

The 'ECU re-training' is a bit confusing to me, and I request you or other members to explain how it does that. Do you mean ECUs on cars 'adapt' to a drivers style and basically tunes itself!? Because, motorcycle ECUs don't do that- at least as far as I know. My understanding is just that there's 'Map' of outputs to inputs loaded on to the ECU, with which it decides what tested input is closest to my actual input, and just proceeds to follow what is on the output on the corresponding entry in the Map. It is for this reason, the stoichiometry that the FI offers is not so much more ideal than what a carburetor would, and carbon fouling is still common in motorcycles.

Also, note that even the old book (from 1993), mentions that it is not necessary in 'modern FI cars and high-energy electronic ignitions'. The Wikipedia article, expands on the FI part and mentions 'direct and port injected engines'. I don't know how it is in cars, but most- if not all- motorcycles are only port injected and not direct injected (certainly not both)- meaning the FI sprays fuel on the intake manifold, which is carried forward by the air, as opposed to directly on the compressed chamber.

This is what I wanted to add with this post- it depends on the injection type as well. Port injection will help with cleaning carbon deposits on the inlet valves, but doesn't do much for what is inside the cylinder, as the petrol sprayed by the FI would hit the outsides of the valves, and lose much of its momentum to do any cleaning on piston head or insides of the valves, by sheer force, mixture density and/or additives. It doesn't really offer the cooling and performance benefits of the direct injection either, for the same reason.

So, at least in motorcycles, occasional 'Italian tune-ups' would be beneficial. More so, older and/or more 'pampered' by only lower RPMs, the motorcycle is.