[ezee]

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

If I understand correctly, the updated AMT firmware is trying to minimize jerks by matching the RPM. This is a known technique in AT.
However, as soon as the clutch closes, the fuel should be stopped to provide engine braking.
Can you please ask that if the shooting up of RPM actually acclerates the vehicle, or does the RPM then drops, or does the RPM remain steady?

As received by Sharad

During clutch close fuel supply to the engine is not stopped, vehicle accelerates even when the brake pedal is engaged and there is no A pedal input. Once gear is shifted and clutch opens, everything is back to normal till the next gear shift. Same behavior is seen in upshifts too. Which means if I accelerate enough to generate required rpm to warrant upshift and remove A pedal input before clutch engagement, TUV keeps accelerating and in case of vehicle in front, I need to jump on brakes

[purohitanuj]

Originally Posted by ezee

As received by Sharad

During clutch close fuel supply to the engine is not stopped, vehicle accelerates even when the brake pedal is engaged and there is no A pedal input. Once gear is shifted and clutch opens, everything is back to normal till the next gear shift. Same behavior is seen in upshifts too. Which means if I accelerate enough to generate required rpm to warrant upshift and remove A pedal input before clutch engagement, TUV keeps accelerating and in case of vehicle in front, I need to jump on brakes

In all sense, it is software related issue. Please note that after every firmware update, the driver must drive AMT (sedately) for few kms (this can be in 100s) to enable the system to adapt to the driving pattern. AMT will shift with minimum jerks only when:
1. It learns your driving pattern
2. You learn what it can't learn or do because some things are out of its control (e.g. lift off the pedal and give an opportunity to change gear)

Things may become worse if one tries to gun the car just after the update (to test all AMT related issues).

Folks,
Please remember that there is no perfect AT. You can't drive an AT like you would drive a manual. PERIOD. You will need to alter your driving style to get the *best* out of AT. I can vouch this as I drove a Punto for 1 lac KM before switching to Scorpio AT. Even after 2 years, I am still learning new tricks and pattern to minimize the AT's confusion.

Simple things like brake anticipation, no sudden acceleration, planned overtaking, and constant throttle while climbing can do wonders on how AT would work.

[theMAG]

Not sure I recollect Maruti AMTs being reported with the problems being reported on the Mahindra AMTs. Assuming both Maruti and Mahindra source their AMTs from a single vendor and/or their underlying technology is the same, I see two possible explanations for their differing behaviors:

1. AMTs better suited to the characteristics of petrol engines than the diesel engines offered by Mahindra

2. Poor electronic management on the Mahindra AMTs.


In any case, Mahindra is obligated to find a fix. I am particularly shocked to read earlier in this thread that the vehicle holds its speed when it isn't expected to!

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

..............M&M should give a loaner TUV AMT to ezee and keep his car in their R&D to further deep dive and get to the root cause of the issue.

I would say that is a very sensible alternative to ezee's critical situation. I too have heard the story doing the rounds about waiting at least a couple of years before plonking for a new Mahindra product - I'm afraid the days for such practices are long gone.

M&M have to pull up their socks & rid themselves of this "customers as guinea pigs" syndrome - customers today have just too many choices for them to stick with one mfr's lemons.

[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by theMAG

Not sure I recollect Maruti AMTs being reported with the problems being reported on the Mahindra AMTs. Assuming both Maruti and Mahindra source their AMTs from a single vendor and/or their underlying technology is the same, I see two possible explanations for their differing behaviors:

The underlying technology is definitely same. But Maruti and Tata source the AMTs from magneti marelli while Mahindra sources from Ricardo. The AMT was developed with close collaboration between Mahindra and Ricardo. So the TUV is the first product using it in India(and I assume it is not used anywhere else). Guess they should have collaborated and tested better.

Link to a press release from Ricardo here

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by theMAG

source their AMTs from a single vendor and/or their underlying technology is the same

The suppliers are different. Ricardo for M&M and Magnetti for MSIL. The underlying technology is the same.

1. AMTs better suited to the characteristics of petrol engines than the diesel engines offered by Mahindra

I think the AMT does run well on diesel engines too. The Zest is a good example.

AMT is not sensitive to torque inputs like a CVT.

2. Poor electronic management on the Mahindra AMTs.

This could be a possible reason. I think M&M have sent a half-done assignment to the teacher.

[VinodDevil81]

Originally Posted by streetfighter

I do not buy the theory that one should wait 6-8 months after the launch of a new vehicle. If no one buys, who would be guinea pig? Who would do the testing and find the issues?

It is not a theory as such.It is just a general piece of advice.
Something that many people follow just to be on the safer side.
And as you have said, one is completely free to follow it or not.

The huge pre-booking numbers of models like Vitara brezza within one week of launch, even before seeing the car in flesh or taking a proper test drive, points to the fact that there are many people who think just like you.
People who are willing to take risk and be the guinea pig.

And frankly, in my opinion, it is just madness going after a product even before seeing it or test-driving it, even if the product is from the most reputed car-maker in the world.
Why can't these people wait for just a few more weeks/months to know the car better, before putting in their hard-earned money?
Why should anyone trust any manufacturer so blindly?

Such early-bird customers will always be there for any product- be it cars, bikes, smartphones or just anything new.
Even if they are made aware of this guinea pig testing issue, most of them just don't care.
Majority of them just want the exclusivity and coolness of owning a new product.
For them,this out-weighs the troubles that may be associated with the new product.
And many of them may not have the intention of owning the product for a long-term.
Within an year or two,when another cool new product is launched, they will just dispose this one and go after that new one.Problem solved!

But it is not the case with a typical average Indian buyer.
He/she may be planning to keep the car anywhere between 5 to 8 years or even much longer.
It is for such customers that this theory becomes applicable.

And as GTO pointed out, this is particularly applicable for manufacturers like Mahindra, who got that bad reputation with models like XUV500 and Scorpio.

[anjan_c2007]

Sad to read your woes Ezee. Seeing the grievances, it can be safely concluded that their AMT rather than lessening the driver's worry has added endless troubles. Paying Rs 10.5 L and getting such a shoddy product is shameful. M&M needs to be ashamed of marketing such a product and must stop production till the problem is fully rectified. Some genuine complaints are pouring in as is evident.

As far as guinea pig theory is concerned, I would suggest Mahindra to during the initial two years of launch of their products :

(1) Insure every owner for a value that is not less than ten times the value of the Mahindra vehicle purchased.

(2) Provide such customers with a round the clock free service and spares, should the product fail or stall or cease to perform to its optimum levels as certified.

(3) Award each customer for his or her patience and for testing their agony-filled endurance with such guinea pig products.

(4) Keep a fleet of company replacements of equal or higher stature for such customers, as and when their vehicles need to go to the authorised service centre, provided every replacement is a model that has been in the market for two years or more.

(5) Sign an indemnity bond with the customer to provide the perfected product free of cost, after two years, as a replacement to the "guinea pig" product the customer had purchased two years back from your company.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

The underlying technology is definitely same. But Maruti and Tata source the AMTs from magneti marelli while Mahindra sources from Ricardo. The AMT was developed with close collaboration between Mahindra and Ricardo.

And why did Mahindra try to reinvent the wheel? Magneti Marelli has been making AMTs for decades now. It's a cheap solution too.

All AMTs aren't equal, just as all engines & MTs aren't. The mass market has several 1.2L engines that are fundamentally the same, but only a few are jewels (while some are lame).

Mahindra should have just gotten an AMT from an experienced manufacturer with a long track record.

[kiku007]

Is it impossible to add a proper automatic transmission to a car and sell it at say 50000 - 75000 premium and be done with it? This automated manual transmission is an unwanted distraction. Never driven one but all I've heard is that it's not smooth.

If people think it's cheaper, wait and see how automakers will eventually price the AMTs at a premium, further extending the gap between manual and proper automatics.

[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by GTO

And why did Mahindra try to reinvent the wheel? Magneti Marelli has been making AMTs for decades now. It's a cheap solution too.
.

Wonder if it is because Magneti Marelli was unable to meet Mahindra's supply demands. As such Magneti had constraints with the supply to Maruti and Tata. Maybe Mahindra did not want to play 2nd fiddle since Maruti would always be the prefered customer for Magneti. So they tried to do something of their own.

Of course, that's no excuse for coming out with a half baked product.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Is it impossible to add a proper automatic transmission to a car and sell it at say 50000 - 75000 premium and be done with it? This automated manual transmission is an unwanted distraction. Never driven one but all I've heard is that it's not smooth.

If people think it's cheaper, wait and see how automakers will eventually price the AMTs at a premium, further extending the gap between manual and proper automatics.

Actually this is already the case. Mahindra charges a cool 75k more for the TUV300 AMT variant over the MT. Even Maruti charges 50-60k more for the Dzire diesel AMT. Same is the case with Tata for the Zest AMT. In comparison Ford charges around 1.1L more for the much more advanced DCT in the Ecosport AT( including additional features). Even VW DSG premium is ~1.2L. Not much of a difference considering we are talking about the 10L segment. Ironically even Mahindra charges only 90k for the XUV AT over the MT. This is a tried and tested brilliant 6 speed proper Torque Converter AT. Looking at all this Mahindra is definitely taking customers for a ride by charging a 75k premium for an untested AMT.

Honestly AMTs should be restricted to the entry level segments where it makes sense.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by GTO

And why did Mahindra try to reinvent the wheel? Magneti Marelli has been making AMTs for decades now. It's a cheap solution too.

All AMTs aren't equal, just as all engines & MTs aren't. The mass market has several 1.2L engines that are fundamentally the same, but only a few are jewels (while some are lame).

Mahindra should have just gotten an AMT from an experienced manufacturer with a long track record.

History repeats :

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...stopped-3.html

Post # 5

" Firstly the Scorpio Automatic is what i would call as a Jugaad. Something thats got a mind of its own when shifting. I think M&M got an autobox for the cheapest price and desperately tried to mate it with their otherwise brilliant engine and everything went wrong. I, for one, am a total advocate for automatic cars but i would never touch a Scorpio auto with a 10 foot pole. When the up shifts and downshifts will take place depends on something no one knows. No wonder it is being phased out. I believe the Ford Endevour comparatively is brilliant....remember i said comparatively. I dont think there should be a problem of parts as M&M are not a small fly by night company and are trying very hard at building their image as serious car builders. the XUV 500 has proved that in a big way. I see this as a realization of sorts that they are not going to now depend on shoddy stuff and are maybe looking for a good box to mate with their engine. I trust Mahindra....somewhat."

M&M had also messed up with the AT 4 X 4 Scorpios. This thread by pramods is illustrative:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...report-12.html

Post # 250 and other posts in its vicinity:

I am back home in Nagpur, the trip coy cut short because of transmission oil leak at 35 km from Leh, AT biggest problem is this ATF and the weakest link is cooler at all ATF pipes that go through this cooler. I am awaiting response from Mahindra who will be transporting the Scorpio from Leh to Chandigarh and then diagnosis the actual problem fix it and transport it to Nagpur. Till the leak everything was fine and the AT was performing like a GEM and within a minute everything came to standstill, it need to be towed and for towing AT the propeller shaft need to be removed and then towed, it was not a good experience but I am waiting for the next action to follow and when I will get the vehicle at Nagpur.

I have to book a taxi from Leh to Srinagar, then take flight from Srinagar to Delhi, stay a night in Delhi and take a flight back to Nagpur, getting all this done was a difficult task and that too when you have your family with you, anyway we all reached back safe and in time without much trouble.

Am hoping Mahindra takes care of my Scorpio and get me the vehicle at the earliest. Its just 5 month old vehicle at 12395KM on odo.

-Pramod
PS: meanwhile enjoy few of the snaps, will be uploading more later

[ezee]

Update to the problems:

As per calls received from Delhi and Mumbai heads, Zonal heads want to drive my and Sharads TUV to cross check the problems reported.

Sharads TUV will be checked today and mine tomorrow.

Every TUV AMT owner and reviewers too reported problems like jerks, low pickup and unwanted accelerations but its very difficult to explain same to Mahindra people as they treat all as product feature/nature rather than problem. Just because they don't have any solution for now and not sure about any possible solutions too. Just like they are failed to control shuddering of KUV in low gears and while reversing.

[gopzdoc]

Cars and for that matter all vehicles are mechanical things that are prone for failure occasionally. The trust a customer develops in a brand is how the company reacts when a failure occur. This might be the way the company goes about rectifying the defect or their sympathetic attitude to the customer in dire straits.

I am a Toyota and Hyundai owner at present and have owned cars from the Honda, Maruti, Mahindra and Fiat stables in the past. I have never had a major mechanical breakdown thus far in any of the vehicles that I have owned except for the Turbo failure in my Fortuner. The way the company responded to the problem- be it meeting part of the cost or providing a loaner car- was really an eye opener.

Of all the brands I have owned IMHO, the only 2 brands that are confidence inspiring ie, the confidence one gets from the feeling that the ASS can rectify any problem that can pop up are only Toyota and Honda.

Coming to the thread at hand, I get the feeling that the anguish is more for the company not able to rectify the problem rather than the problem per se. If Mahindra was able to rectify the problem promptly and to the satisfaction of the customer this thread would not be there!

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by VinodDevil81

It is not a theory as such.It is just a general piece of advice. Something that many people follow just to be on the safer side. And as you have said, one is completely free to follow it or not. The huge pre-booking numbers of models like Vitara brezza within one week of launch, even before seeing the car in flesh or taking a proper test drive, points to the fact that there are many people who think just like you. People who are willing to take risk and be the guinea pig.
And frankly, in my opinion, it is just madness going after a product even before seeing it or test-driving it, even if the product is from the most reputed car-maker in the world.
Why can't these people wait for just a few more weeks/months to know the car better, before putting in their hard-earned money?
Why should anyone trust any manufacturer so blindly?]

Amen and +1 to that - Why indeed? I waited 2 years after the launch before going in for my Scorpio - and am happy to have done so. I must be among the very few with no niggles to speak of after 11+ years of regular touring use.


...........this is particularly applicable for manufacturers like Mahindra, who got that bad reputation with models like XUV500 and Scorpio.

I would not go as far as that since the near-iconic status of the Scorpio and the legion of happy XUV owners would seem to belie such an assumption!