[xci]

Hello everyone, we have a VW Ameo TDI HL+ DSG, bought in Jan '19. Three weeks back my car showed a glow plug indicator light flashing and the check engine light light came up. I took the car to the service center (OSL Exclusive, Kolkata), and they took the car in acknowledging the problems (glow plug light, check engine light on and occasional engine misfiring). The car is under Extended Warranty.

A couple of days back, they sent an email with an estimate of ~24k and are refusing to cover the expenses under the (Extended) Warranty. They are saying this is a "service-related" issue (issue not stated clearly) and will not be covered under the EW.

Previously, the EW has covered a Flywheel (DMF) change and an ABS sensor replacement.

How do I pursue this issue further ?

[Kosfactor]

^ Please check the terms and conditions of the EW to see if injector is covered, my guess is that one of the injectors have failed.

[hari_rama]

Hi Everyone... Need a quick help or advice.

I have a Vento 1.6 MT Highline TDI 2011 model.
Bought it as used in 2016 from first owner with 33k KM on odo.

Over the last 5 years of ownership, the car was totally enjoyable equally on highways (75% of driving) and cities as well. The power surge in third gear is totally addicting.

As of now car has clocked 1.8 Lakh KM and recently observed heavy oil leak in Engine bay and floor whenever parked. Car is drinking almost 200ml of oil for every 1000 kms.

To check on the same, took the car to a Bosch service center near my area. The workshop personnels are knowledgable and professional.

For the current oil leak, observation is oil is leaking through following areas :

1) Injector area in the engine head, between engine head and bottom housing

2) Oil cooler to housing joint

3) Inside the clutch housing?

4) Crankshaft roller bearing seal.

I do not have pictures of the engine, however I have attached few reference pictures (Credit to boodmo.com website). There was oil stains almost heavily.

Based on the observation, the workshop is assuming that the piston to cylinder gap has increased due to which with the compression pressure, the engine oil is pressurized through above joints and leaking.

This gap might be due to the piston ring wearing out or cylinder oversizing.

They are yet to open up the engine head and check to confirm on these.

The max cost (considering cylinder bore has worn out and has to rebore and sleeve insert) would be near to 1.35 lakhs.

I am in a fix on whether their observations is right and whether spending another 1.35 lakhs on such critical repair will bring this car back to how it was earlier (driveability and power) .

Can you guys give some advice here?

[pta320]

Originally Posted by hari_rama

Hi Everyone... Need a quick help or advice.

I have a Vento 1.6 MT Highline TDI 2011 model.
Bought it as used in 2016 from first owner with 33k KM on odo.

Over the last 5 years of ownership, the car was totally enjoyable equally on highways (75% of driving) and cities as well. The power surge in third gear is totally addicting.

As of now car has clocked 1.8 Lakh KM and recently observed heavy oil leak in Engine bay and floor whenever parked. Car is drinking almost 200ml of oil for every 1000 kms.

To check on the same, took the car to a Bosch service center near my area. The workshop personnels are knowledgable and professional.

For the current oil leak, observation is oil is leaking through following areas :

1) Injector area in the engine head, between engine head and bottom housing

2) Oil cooler to housing joint

3) Inside the clutch housing?

4) Crankshaft roller bearing seal.

I do not have pictures of the engine, however I have attached few reference pictures (Credit to boodmo.com website). There was oil stains almost heavily.

Based on the observation, the workshop is assuming that the piston to cylinder gap has increased due to which with the compression pressure, the engine oil is pressurized through above joints and leaking.

This gap might be due to the piston ring wearing out or cylinder oversizing.

They are yet to open up the engine head and check to confirm on these.

The max cost (considering cylinder bore has worn out and has to rebore and sleeve insert) would be near to 1.35 lakhs.

I am in a fix on whether their observations is right and whether spending another 1.35 lakhs on such critical repair will bring this car back to how it was earlier (driveability and power) .

Can you guys give some advice here?

Is the car emitting some white/grayish/bluish smoke from the exhaust? Try to notice it under hard acceleration. Is so then for sure the piston rings are on their way out and engine is burning oil which is the primary cause of oil consumption.

Coming to the oil leak observed at various parts, it appears that gaskets and the main seals have started to fail. But if the leak in these areas is benign then thats not a very big problem as at 1.8 lakh km, its not uncommon for the engine to be covered with oil at various places and it will not cause a catastrophic failure in the near term.

The concerning thing is the oil consumption of 200ml/1000km.

Can you please confirm if you changed the engine oil at the recommended intervals? Did you use the engine flush too often? Please also try to see under the oil cap if there is any residue.

The primary reason for the piston rings to go bad is bad engine oil. As the piston rings start to go bad, the blow by increases significantly (you can check the same by removing the dipstick and seeing if the car is spitting engine oil or smoke from the dipstick). And if engine flush is used very often, the seals start to wear out faster and coupled with increased blow by, the excessive pressure takes its toll on the seals and they start to leak all over.

To me it sounds like bad piston rings causing oil burning and excessive blow by, which is leading to increased pressure within the crankcase leading to leaking seals.

If this is the case, then only way to fix it would be to rebuild the head specifically the piston rings. Take your car to a reputed independent garage and have it inspected for the same. They can fix the problem much cheaper than VW dealership, just push them to use original parts.

[hari_rama]

Thanks a lot Pta320 for the quick response and elaborate reply.

Yes, during heavy acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gear, there was dark smoke coming up. But absolutely normal when driven normally.

Engine oil was replaced periodically (few times driven max 1000km excess to stipulated 15k service interval).

Since 1.2 lakh kms, servicing was done outside at FNG and I use only Liquimoly 5W40.

And flush oil I have used if i remember correctly just once, that too first time when i took it to outside workshop.

There is slight oil spill marks beneath oil cap, however it is present at multiple other areas. MEchanic mentioned that the cap is not causing leak and I alsofelt so. Presence of oil near the injector area also assured same.

To me it sounds like bad piston rings causing oil burning and excessive blow by, which is leading to increased pressure within the crankcase leading to leaking seals.

If this is the case, then only way to fix it would be to rebuild the head specifically the piston rings. Take your car to a reputed independent garage and have it inspected for the same. They can fix the problem much cheaper than VW dealership, just push them to use original parts.

I think mechanic also doubts same. Due to piston rings, the oil is pushing through all other areas.

If the engine goes for rebuild, will it have similar performance (power, FE) like it used to be earlier?

And, as per them if the clearance between cylinder and piston is too high, then rebore and sleeve fitting would cost nearly 1.25 to 1.3 Lakhs. Is this cost also quite OK?

I know this is too much questions to ask, but I have limited knowledge about engines. Thanks once more for your support.

[pta320]

Originally Posted by hari_rama

Thanks a lot Pta320 for the quick response and elaborate reply.

Yes, during heavy acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gear, there was dark smoke coming up. But absolutely normal when driven normally.

Engine oil was replaced periodically (few times driven max 1000km excess to stipulated 15k service interval).

Since 1.2 lakh kms, servicing was done outside at FNG and I use only Liquimoly 5W40.

And flush oil I have used if i remember correctly just once, that too first time when i took it to outside workshop.

There is slight oil spill marks beneath oil cap, however it is present at multiple other areas. MEchanic mentioned that the cap is not causing leak and I alsofelt so. Presence of oil near the injector area also assured same.



I think mechanic also doubts same. Due to piston rings, the oil is pushing through all other areas.

If the engine goes for rebuild, will it have similar performance (power, FE) like it used to be earlier?

And, as per them if the clearance between cylinder and piston is too high, then rebore and sleeve fitting would cost nearly 1.25 to 1.3 Lakhs. Is this cost also quite OK?

I know this is too much questions to ask, but I have limited knowledge about engines. Thanks once more for your support.

1) By dark do you mean black smoke? Black smoke is normal in diesel cars under heavy acceleration but if it's like greyish or whitish then it could be engine oil burning.

2) 15k km sounds way too much especially on a diesel without any oil filter change in between. I am surprised VW has kept so long interval for oil change. But since you were using LiquiMoly full synthetic then it maybe fine. With mineral or semi synth, 15k is a big no even with oil filter change and might have played some role in premature wear of piston rings. It's sadly a planned obsolescence on the manufacturers part and is very common these days. As a general rule 10k kms/ 1 year with fully synthetic oil. 5k / 6 months with semi synth or mineral oil. 15k / 1.5 years with full synth and oil filter change at around 7.5 k, though not recommended but I've read at some places that most of the time high quality full synth held up well with such pattern.

3) If it's properly diagnosed that piston rings are bad then engine rebuild is the only option. The power FE etc post rebuild entirely depends on the quality of work done. Engine rebuild is a complex process and requires proper tolerances otherwise its not going to end up good.

If it comes to a point that engine rebuild is the only option and is costing above 1L then my suggestion would be to trade in for a new car. Because since it's a German car, at 1.8L kms the reliability of other components will also be questionable and some other major expense might already be on its way. If it would have been something like Toyota then things would have been different.

But first I would suggest take multiple opinions from reputed independent garages and also from VW dealership because someone who is physically inspecting your car will be able to tell exactly what's going on. If all of them point towards piston ring issue then take your call based on the above mentioned points.

Just my 2c, don't put above a lakh or close to that for rebuild of a 1.8l run car. In name of VW the garages unduly loot people and if in the end issue is not fixed they don't take responsibility either and make things worse.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by pta320

Can you please confirm if you changed the engine oil at the recommended intervals? Did you use the engine flush too often? Please also try to see under the oil cap if there is any residue.

.

The first signs of this can be observed around the 60k-80k kms mark, excessive blowby and oil consumption. It will eventually end up in this state, a common fault with this engine 1.6TDi engine. There is no amount of oil change going to prevent it.

[pta320]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

The first signs of this can be observed around the 60k-80k kms mark, excessive blowby and oil consumption. It will eventually end up in this state, a common fault with this engine 1.6TDi engine. There is no amount of oil change going to prevent it.

Its just sad to see VAG cars have so many reliability issues lately, the last reliable motor I remember was 1.9TDi ALH and 3.6 FSI but all the newer motors have their own quirks. For a Toyota, 60-80k is kind of like break in period.

[sagarpadaki]

First get the wet and dry compression test done to see if the issue is with engine block or the head. Only then decide to open the engine or not. Get the piston compression values for the 1.6tdi.

You said the oil is leaking from various points. So those might be the cause for the oil consumption than the cylinder/head.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by pta320

Its just sad to see VAG cars have so many reliability issues lately, the last reliable motor I remember was 1.9TDi ALH and 3.6 FSI but all the newer motors have their own quirks. .

The engine in itself can be durable like the models you mentioned but Indian conditions will need careful consideration of the fuel as in the case of diesel. The 1.9 TDi that was available in India could not handle this diesel, the injection pump and injectors would pack up soon. Mk1 Skoda for its price was an unbelievable car to drive when everything works well, imagine how it would have delighted it's users during those days.

[pta320]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

The engine in itself can be durable like the models you mentioned but Indian conditions will need careful consideration of the fuel as in the case of diesel. The 1.9 TDi that was available in India could not handle this diesel, the injection pump and injectors would pack up soon. Mk1 Skoda for its price was an unbelievable car to drive when everything works well, imagine how it would have delighted it's users during those days.

I'd still blame it on the manufacturer for not putting durable parts to withstand Indian conditions. Toyotas also run on same diesel as VW but last usually 10x longer.

This is simply a cost cutting to make weak parts that can only withstand EU driving conditions and high quality diesel. Very sad to see these guys taking Indians for granted. Result, i haven't owned a German car ever and don't plant to own one either in the future if such catastrophic failures continue to happen despite of taking good care of the car.

[hari_rama]

Originally Posted by pta320

3) If it's properly diagnosed that piston rings are bad then engine rebuild is the only option. The power FE etc post rebuild entirely depends on the quality of work done. Engine rebuild is a complex process and requires proper tolerances otherwise its not going to end up good.

If it comes to a point that engine rebuild is the only option and is costing above 1L then my suggestion would be to trade in for a new car. Because since it's a German car, at 1.8L kms the reliability of other components will also be questionable and some other major expense might already be on its way. If it would have been something like Toyota then things would have been different.

Unfortunately, the workshop was closed for last few days due to Pongal holidays and yesterday workshop guy called me mentioning engine is opened up - asked me to come over and check on.

I totally understand the facts you suggested on economical sense on rebuilding the car by spending so much. But recently bought my home and dont think can fund for another car soon. I have to carry on with this rebuild i guess.

Here are few snaps from the engine which was ripped apart.

Engine head :



Heavy rust on water cavities with many of the cavity openings obstructed.

Water pump :



Too much rust and an edge of the propeller broken.

Piston and cylinder :



Mechanic demonstrated by rotating the crankshaft manually that the gap between piston and cylinder increasing as the piston moves from top to bottom. There was a prominent play along the contact circumference with cylinder when piston was at bottom.

Engine block :



Almost all sides of block was having oil leak stains. No wonder it drank ~200 ml oil for 1000 kms.

Oil cooler port & Clutch housing :





Here also there was heavy leak observed.

On questioning will an engine suffer so much in less than 2L kms, following were probable causes mentioned :

1)Usage of plain water (which might have salt content) with coolant that might have caused the water pump rust and head water cavities to rust and create block.

2) The blockage of cavities created flow restriction for water causing damage to water pump propeller as well as slow flow of water reducing heat absorption from block and engine oil.

3) Reduced water flow and heat absorption to coolant water causes faster wearing of piston rings.

4) Due to clearance of piston rings, compression pressure within stroke length of piston is leaked to below oil sump and pressurizes oil to leak out through multiple locations such as camshaft seal, oil cooler seal, head to block joint, clutch housing etc.

Option mentioned is to go ahead with the rebuild. During rebuild - pistons, seals, reboring the sleeve/liner, changing all inlet/ outlet valves with guides and tappets, crankshaft bearing, water hose will be replaced.

Head rust and carbon deposits in multiple areas also would be cleaned.

Should I insist on anything else that needs to be done?

Also, the cost of overhaul excluding the clutch is quoted ~1.3 Lakhs. Is this a normal cost?

I intend to keep car for atleast a year post rebuild with an average running of 3000km a month.

Any additional points to check on will be helpful .

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

First get the wet and dry compression test done to see if the issue is with engine block or the head. Only then decide to open the engine or not. Get the piston compression values for the 1.6tdi.

You said the oil is leaking from various points. So those might be the cause for the oil consumption than the cylinder/head.

Unfortunately the engine was opened up earlier itself.
Yes, the oil leak was too intense across multiple location which would probably the reason of oil consumption

[pta320]

Originally Posted by hari_rama

Unfortunately, the workshop was closed for last few days due to Pongal holidays and yesterday workshop guy called me mentioning engine is opened up - asked me to come over and check on.

I totally understand the facts you suggested on economical sense on rebuilding the car by spending so much. But recently bought my home and dont think can fund for another car soon. I have to carry on with this rebuild i guess.

Here are few snaps from the engine which was ripped apart.

Engine head :

Attachment 2263422

Heavy rust on water cavities with many of the cavity openings obstructed.

Water pump :

Attachment 2263426

Too much rust and an edge of the propeller broken.

Piston and cylinder :

Attachment 2263425

Mechanic demonstrated by rotating the crankshaft manually that the gap between piston and cylinder increasing as the piston moves from top to bottom. There was a prominent play along the contact circumference with cylinder when piston was at bottom.

Engine block :

Attachment 2263423

Almost all sides of block was having oil leak stains. No wonder it drank ~200 ml oil for 1000 kms.

Oil cooler port & Clutch housing :

Attachment 2263424

Attachment 2263421

Here also there was heavy leak observed.

On questioning will an engine suffer so much in less than 2L kms, following were probable causes mentioned :

1)Usage of plain water (which might have salt content) with coolant that might have caused the water pump rust and head water cavities to rust and create block.

2) The blockage of cavities created flow restriction for water causing damage to water pump propeller as well as slow flow of water reducing heat absorption from block and engine oil.

3) Reduced water flow and heat absorption to coolant water causes faster wearing of piston rings.

4) Due to clearance of piston rings, compression pressure within stroke length of piston is leaked to below oil sump and pressurizes oil to leak out through multiple locations such as camshaft seal, oil cooler seal, head to block joint, clutch housing etc.

Option mentioned is to go ahead with the rebuild. During rebuild - pistons, seals, reboring the sleeve/liner, changing all inlet/ outlet valves with guides and tappets, crankshaft bearing, water hose will be replaced.

Head rust and carbon deposits in multiple areas also would be cleaned.

Should I insist on anything else that needs to be done?

Also, the cost of overhaul excluding the clutch is quoted ~1.3 Lakhs. Is this a normal cost?

I intend to keep car for atleast a year post rebuild with an average running of 3000km a month.

Any additional points to check on will be helpful .




Unfortunately the engine was opened up earlier itself.
Yes, the oil leak was too intense across multiple location which would probably the reason of oil consumption

As the engine is already disassembled, you will have to proceed with the rebuild.

1.3 lakhs sounds ok to me considering its a German car. Please make sure the quality of parts they are using. If they are using genuine parts then you may proceed.

A brand new 1.2 TDi cost around 3.5 lakhs and just the assembled block cost 1.7 lakhs. You can check the same on Boodmo.

Personally I don't have any experience with engine rebuild cost but have seen Maruti and Tata ones getting complete overhaul at around 60k. So for VW a high cost maybe expected.

Apart from that, where did you get the coolant changed? Using tap water to dilute coolant sounds absolute negligence on the part of the mechanic. Needless to say it would kill the engine.

[sagarpadaki]

It's sad to see so much corrosion inside the engine. The culprit is obviously the use of tap water to dilute the coolant. Tough luck I would say.

Use original spares. Ensure that the engine block and head are cleaned thoroughly. Also check if the engine block or head is still usable after this corrosion. Check below video for guidance

https://youtu.be/f_blxqEgJ6k

[krishnaprasad]

Originally Posted by anoop.nair

Just to update I'm still stranded, will pull car to parking tonight. towing to service center is insane as I'm 60km away & towing charges told to me by Roadside assistance(toll free) was @ Rs 4500 for 20 km.

So are you suggesting I check for bleeding hose? My battery is cold when cranking with just about 7 volts. Otherwise healthy at 12.5 amp.

Hello Anoop Nair,
did the problem get fixed. I have the exact same issue that is happening now. The car is running, so taking it to the VW service centre but would appreciate to hear about your experience and any advice.

thanks
Krishna.