[shancz]

Originally Posted by fighterace

However it is not possible to comment on the extent of damage to your components without looking at them.

Hope this answers your questions.

Thanks for replying fighterace.

Agree with your assertion that component quality has gone down as has been the case with other areas too.
Earlier a car focused on essentials (engine-chassis-gearbox-suspension-body) and then rest was added. Nowadays everything is a component and built to a cost and life. Focus has also shifted from the essentials to the bling resulting in the incidents of basic mechanical and material failures in 2021. But probably that's how the market is, bling sells much more

Coming back to topic, cleaned the rusting parts with WD40 and attaching the pics here if it helps.
Showing both sides of : Clutch Plate, Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate, Flywheel and Release Bearing.
Note : No rust was present when they were replaced.

[fighterace]

Originally Posted by shancz

Thanks for replying fighterace.

...
Coming back to topic, cleaned the rusting parts with WD40 and attaching the pics here if it helps.
Showing both sides of : Clutch Plate, Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate, Flywheel and Release Bearing.
Note : No rust was present when they were replaced.

Attachment 2177047

Attachment 2177048

My pleasure.

Looking at the photos, both clutch plates are toast. The flywheel could have been repaired on a lathe. Difficult to see how deep the scores are, but doesn't look like a goner. The bearing has to be checked by hand.

There must be something fundamentally wrong for things to go so bad so soon- both the start of the slippage at 20k KMS and the sudden deterioration after that. Never seen a pressure plate worn so bad. Hopefully the new clutch will last long.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by shancz

Showing both sides of : Clutch Plate, Clutch Cover/Pressure Plate, Flywheel and Release Bearing.
Note : No rust was present when they were replaced.

Looks like you are riding your clutch. I see blueing on both the flywheel and pressure plate. 56,000 km is way too early for a clutch replacement. Do you rest your left foot on the clutch pedal while driving?

My clutch was replaced at 345.000 km in 2018. The lining on the clutch plate was about 1/2 mm over the rivets on one side and about a millimeter on the other side.

The flywheel was fine but I replaced all as a set since I have a DMF.
I have now done 61,000 km on the new clutch.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by fighterace

The flywheel could have been repaired on a lathe. Difficult to see how deep the scores are, but doesn't look like a goner. The bearing has to be checked by hand.

Thanks
Good to know in case I end up in a similar situation again(hope not).The scuff marks aren't that deep they look deeper due to the accumulated rust/dirt but I would say at max 1mm deep in the deepest areas. Guessing due to the rivets rubbing against the flywheel.
Will try to figure out the bearing as well out of curiosity but I doubt if it'll be usable.

Even with the flywheel do you think if I get it repaired at a lathe it can be used again if the need arises ? Asking this because when the parts came in they looked brand new and after years of rusting will it be advisable to refit again ?

Originally Posted by fighterace

There must be something fundamentally wrong for things to go so bad so soon- both the start of the slippage at 20k KMS and the sudden deterioration after that. Never seen a pressure plate worn so bad. Hopefully the new clutch will last long.

Yup, I feel the same. Start of slippage and replacement was around 15000kms, it all happened within a week/<100kms.
Either ways will see how long the new parts hold, they've been on for 10k kms.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

- I see blueing on both the flywheel and pressure plate. 56,000 km is way too early for a clutch replacement.
- Looks like you are riding your clutch. Do you rest your left foot on the clutch pedal while driving?

Thanks for your reply.

- Well its 15000kms and not 56000kms, that's why the concern. Considering the worsening traffic and perceptible reduction in component life along with driving habits I wouldn't have thought much about it if the clutch went at 56000kms(would have been concerned about the flywheel though).

- I don't ride the clutch, but the car is used mainly by my Dad. He denies and I haven't observed it too but cannot rule it out.
Going by anecdotal data, We had a Matiz for the previous 15-16 years and we didn't have this issue. I was there till that car crossed 40000 kms and the clutch was fine. Both cars have zero free play clutches.

Even if we assume riding the clutch, have some questions :
1. Can it still go at 15k kms, all of it ? What I would expect is after the initial slippage in 100 kms of driving I should still expect to change just the clutch plate right ? Sorry for stupid questions this is the first time I have encountered this or seen a clutch.
2. The rate of deterioration was astounding. In a week/<100kms it went from a slight slip(barely perceptible) to difficult to move. This happened in front of me. The car was driving absolutely fine before that.
3. Could a misadjusted clutch would've caused this ? Is it possible to even misadjust the clutch? If it was then wouldn't we have too many issues like this?

I am again banking on anecdotal data for finding the cause. The car has already completed 10000kms on the new parts, if it happens again in the next 10000kms then the cause is in the input. Riding the clutch becomes a prime suspect or a misadjusted clutch if that's possible.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by shancz

Thanks
Could a misadjusted clutch would've caused this ? Is it possible to even misadjust the clutch? If it was then wouldn't we have too many issues like this?

There should be a free play of about 10 mm at the clutch pedal.

I had a brother who rested his left foot on the clutch pedal and was replaced the clutch twice in 2 years. For him it was a quality issue since he only held his foot over the clutch pedal. His claim was that Fiat had an issue with the quality of the clutch.

He traded in the Fiat 1500 for a VW 1300 but still had the same problem with the clutch. His excuse was that it was Fiat that made the clutch for VW.
You cant argue with such people.

He did not drive many kilometers, about 6-7000 km a year.

You can see that both your pressure plate and flywheel has taken a beating so my bet is that the clutch has been used to pick up speed rather than downshifting.

The rivets have dug into the pressure plate and slipped that side but there are signs of slipping on the flywheel side with no contact with the rivets.

It is possible to wear out you clutch in as little as 5000 km if you go for it.

[shancz]

Thanks for replying and sharing the interesting experience with your brother and agree you can't argue for sure.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

There should be a free play of about 10 mm at the clutch pedal.

That's the case.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

You can see that both your pressure plate and flywheel has taken a beating so my bet is that the clutch has been used to pick up speed rather than downshifting.

Your bet is accurate.
I asked my Dad about it and he said in traffic he doesn't shift to first at all, said its too jerky and annoying to shift between first and second in traffic which he faces most of his driving distance. So even from a standstill he is pulling away in 2nd slipping the clutch.
He also said that's how he drove the Matiz too and its clutch plates were changed around 45k but only the clutch plate is what he recalls.
And he doesn't mind the clutch change at all, he said look at the traffic.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

The rivets have dug into the pressure plate and slipped that side but there are signs of slipping on the flywheel side with no contact with the rivets.

Out of curiosity, I am trying to visualize how this damage was caused but unable.

Please correct me if I am wrong but either in downshifts or building speed using the clutch, the clutch plate will be rubbing against both the pressure plate and the flywheel when the clutch pedal is released/slipped. So the following questions come to mind :
1. Why is the wear on pressure plate side more than the flywheel side if both are spinning at the same speed ?
2. How did you deduce that the clutch has been used to pick up speed from the damage ?


Going back to my earlier questions, at least now I have the answers:
- cause of clutch failure at 15k : driver slipping in the clutch in traffic including standstills
- have the parts quality come down : yes, the Matiz held out till 45k (factoring in the lesser traffic)
- will it happen again : yes but expecting longer intervals since the driver is aware of it now

My takeaway : find a way to fit an automatic car in my space(some years down the line), going by the clutch plate bills that will work out to be cheaper and more convenient

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by shancz

1. Why is the wear on pressure plate side more than the flywheel side if both are spinning at the same speed ?
2. How did you deduce that the clutch has been used to pick up speed from the damage ?

The flywheel and the pressure plate spins at the same speed but it is the pressure plate that engages and disengages the clutch. The wear is always more on the pressure plate side. My clutch had a 1/2 mm more wear on that side.

In addition to the "low quality" clutch from Fiat, my brother also started on second gear "to save petrol" When driving uphill, he would just press the clutch pedal.

I used to work on a Mazda 323 belonging to an Indian doctor in Norway. He was crazy about saving petrol.

He started on second gear and went straight to fifth gear and used his clutch for the rest. I replaced his clutch twice and the asked him to go to the shop when he came back for the third time. His clutch looked about the same as in your pictures.

Originally Posted by shancz

have the parts quality come down : yes, the Matiz held out till 45k

Up to the mid seventies and early eighties, clutch plates had asbestos linings. I dont think quality has gone down. My clutch lasted 345,000 km.

Originally Posted by shancz

My takeaway : find a way to fit an automatic car in my space(some years down the line), going by the clutch plate bills that will work out to be cheaper and more convenient

I have had 2 cars with automatic transmissions and never again. They were a nightmare and both of them had to be overhauled. The second car, twice in 163.000 km. Heat is the biggest enemy of the automatic box and an external cooler will help a lot.

I was measuring 140 degrees in my second car and VW told me this was normal. I got it down to 90 degrees with an external cooler

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

The wear is always more on the pressure plate side. My clutch had a 1/2 mm more wear on that side.

Understood, I was thinking if the variance in wear was indicating the damage caused by downshift or building speed/dragging but thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

He started on second gear and went straight to fifth gear and used his clutch for the rest.

This is another level, probably automatic should be mandated in this case.

Originally Posted by Indian2003

Up to the mid seventies and early eighties, clutch plates had asbestos linings. I dont think quality has gone down. My clutch lasted 345,000 km.

Good point but talking specifically of my car previous and current gen or the Matiz and this car I can feel the drop in quality of externals. Internals I don't have much knowledge to check but going by how frequently cars come in for clutch changes can get an idea.
Plus driving here in the everyday traffic mess, hitting 100k kms would be an achievement in my books

Originally Posted by Indian2003

Heat is the biggest enemy of the automatic box and an external cooler will help a lot.

I was measuring 140 degrees in my second car and VW told me this was normal. I got it down to 90 degrees with an external cooler

Yup, have read a few reports of Hyundai/Kia DCT boxes reporting overheating errors.
Was yours a VW DSG too ?
Heat coupled with erratic traffic and congestion makes matters worse here.
And given the conditions and assuming an automatic has to be bought for convenience( running of 6000km/year) which type do you think will fare the best, TC/CVT/DSG ?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

You can see that both your pressure plate and flywheel has taken a beating so my bet is that the clutch has been used to pick up speed rather than downshifting.

Thanks for an excellent explanation in your last few posts.

People using clutch to build the speed (instead of downshifting) often give an excuse that some different car they drove in past did not need that downshift. I tell them in simple words, "Each car has different characteristic. Give every car, the gear she wants."

[DieselAddikt]

Hello All. I really need some help for you all. I have been driving a 2012 Dicor 2WD for the last 1 year. When I started using the car, it had run only around 43000 kms. Prior to me, the car was used by multiple people in the family and was not well taken care of. When I started driving it, I observed the following:
1. Worn out clutch
2. Grinding noise while shifting to 2nd gear

Point 1 was taken care of by replacing the clutch pate and point 2 was corrected by replacing synchronizer rings (all 5 of them were replaced). The clutch still had issues like not fully disengaging unless I nudge it from the bottom with my foot. That was resolved by replacing the MC. Now clutch is all good and light (by Safari standards).

Now I have a different problem. When I start the car and move, it gets very difficult to slot from 1st to 2nd. As in, it is almost impossible to change gears. So I have to keep moving in 1st for a good 5 minutes before I can change gears. Or, I move and somehow change from 1st to neutral and then directly shift it to third. Gears 3,4 and 5 do not have any issues and slot freely. After the initial 5 minutes, everything is normal and gear shifts are butter smooth including slotting to 1st and 2nd. Do you have any idea what the issue could be ? Will it be that there is a wrong grade of transmission oil and it takes time to lubricate well ? The oil was changed when the box was opened for changing the synchronizers. Any help is appreciated.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

Now I have a different problem. When I start the car and move, it gets very difficult to slot from 1st to 2nd. As in, it is almost impossible to change gears. So I have to keep moving in 1st for a good 5 minutes before I can change gears.

After the initial 5 minutes, everything is normal and gear shifts are butter smooth including slotting to 1st and 2nd. Do you have any idea what the issue could be ? Will it be that there is a wrong grade of transmission oil and it takes time to lubricate well ? Any help is appreciated.

I had experienced this on my SX4.

The gear oil recommended for my SX4 is 75W95. When I changed the gear oil for the first time, I couldn't get 75W95 in spite of searching. Every shop offered me 80W90 and told me that there is virtually no difference; it is so close.

So I went ahead with 80W90 (which is thicker when cold) and experienced exactly the same problem. The problem diminished after driving for 10 to 15 thousand km.

At the time of next gear oil change too, 75W95 wasn't available at all. But this time I was more determined. I kept on enquiring in shops after shops. I finally got it and noticed that it isn't impossible to source though it needed patience and persistence.

With 75W95, the gearshifts from cold start were back to normal (smooth), in 1st and 2nd.

Another factor was the oil usage. Before I put 80W90, the car had run 85,000 km. Before putting the 75W95 next time, it had done another 30,000 km.

So make sure you stick to the exact grade of oil and the oil change interval.

[DieselAddikt]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

I had experienced this on my SX4.

So make sure you stick to the exact grade of oil and the oil change interval.

Thank you for the quick response. My 50K service is due. So I will change the transmission oil as well (again). This time I will source the oil myself and make sure it is the recommended grade. It is very difficult to drive around with the current setup.

[Indian2003]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

The gear oil recommended for my SX4 is 75W95. When I changed the gear oil for the first time, I couldn't get 75W95 in spite of searching. Every shop offered me 80W90 and told me that there is virtually no difference;

At around 225,000 km I started to experience a lightly stiffer gearshift and Castrol had the Syntrans that was getting good reviews online. I called Castrol and spoke to their product engineer and he asked me to try the Syntrans and I would be surprised.

You bet I was. The gears slotted very easily but without the squeaks and the groans I had been experiencing. The car has now done 180,000 km now on the same oil.

The gears just clicks into place now. It felt like having a new gearbox as the members at the forum were saying. All the cars in the forum are very high mileage cars with one showing 900.000 km.

Syntrans for the gearbox


Syntrax for the transaxle.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Indian2003

At around 225,000 km I started to experience a lightly stiffer gearshift and Castrol had the Syntrans that was getting good reviews online. I called Castrol and spoke to their product engineer and he asked me to try the Syntrans and I would be surprised.

You bet I was. The gears slotted very easily but without the squeaks and the groans I had been experiencing. The car has now done 180,000 km now on the same oil.

Thanks for sharing. I searched for this oil. But it doesn't seem to be available in India.

Did you buy and use this outside India?

[DieselAddikt]

Just to update on the issue, I changed to 75W90 on the very next day. Had to search in a few stores for the specific grade and finally managed to get 2 liters of Motul 75W90. Wonder why this is not freely available as this is the recommended grade for a lot of cars. Anyway, I completed around 1500 kms after the oil change and the gear shifts have been really smooth. Thanks for the quick response.