[RSR]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Light ON - A Fault/disturbance (DTC) is being diagnosed by the ECU hence a warning to the driver to stop before any further damage happens to the car.

Light OFF - System/fault being checked, addressed and solved, DTC being cleared, the light will not be shown.

You getting the code is irrespective of the light as the ECU stores it so that will be displayed even if the engine isn't running.

Originally Posted by hrbheda

That may be possible. But even before i scanned, when the car started after the non-start problem, no system lights whatsoever came on indicating a problem.

RSR, any input regarding this discussion?

I think both of you are correct!

To me, the seeming confusion looks like it's because the two of you are referring to different lights on the instrument cluster!

I guess hrbheda is referring to the "immobiliser warning lamp", while a4anurag is referring to the "check engine lamp" or "malfunction indicator lamp", and that's where the confusion seems to arise.

Let me explain:

When the car does not start, the "immobiliser warning lamp" refuses to light up on your i10.

This would throw up a DTC (1690 in this case) and store it. Now the engine's "malfunction indicator lamp" will begin to glow, as it normally does when a DTC is set.

When you hook up a scanner, the code can be read.

However, as soon as the car is push-started or steering-jerk-started (I'm coming up with funny new terms here), the "immobiliser warning lamp" would light up briefly and then go off completely, as it does when there is no problem at all.

Now that the car has been started, the DTC set on the previous cycle (when the car did not start) will be cleared from memory automatically. This is because the fault is no longer applicable, and only the latest situation (no DTC) will be stored. So when one hooks up a scanner now, there will be no code thrown up at all!

Thus, in your i10, if you want a situation in which you can get a code on the scanner, you should not start your car when the "malfunction indicator lamp" begins to glow, which is exactly when your "immobiliser warning lamp" fails to light up when the key is turned to the "on" position.

This means you can get a code only when the car refuses to start. As soon as it starts you will get no code, since the previously stored code has been cleared automatically due to the fact that the engine has started!

I hope I haven't confused the two of you even further!

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

I think both of you are correct!

To me, the seeming confusion looks like it's because the two of you are referring to different lights on the instrument cluster!

I guess hrbheda is referring to the "immobiliser warning lamp", while a4anurag is referring to the "check engine lamp" or "malfunction indicator lamp", and that's where the confusion seems to arise.

Let me explain:

When the car does not start, the "immobiliser warning lamp" refuses to light up on your i10.

This would throw up a DTC (1690 in this case) and store it. Now the engine's "malfunction indicator lamp" will begin to glow, as it normally does when a DTC is set.

When you hook up a scanner, the code can be read.

However, as soon as the car is push-started or steering-jerk-started (I'm coming up with funny new terms here), the "immobiliser warning lamp" would light up briefly and then go off completely, as it does when there is no problem at all.

Now that the car has been started, the DTC set on the previous cycle (when the car did not start) will be cleared from memory automatically. This is because the fault is no longer applicable, and only the latest situation (no DTC) will be stored. So when one hooks up a scanner now, there will be no code thrown up at all!

Thus, in your i10, if you want a situation in which you can get a code on the scanner, you should not start your car when the "malfunction indicator lamp" begins to glow.

This means you can get a code only when the car refuses to start. As soon as it startsk you will get no code at all, since the previously stored code has been cleared automatically due to the fact that the engine has started!

I hope I haven't confused the two of you even further!

No RSR you have not confused me further! In fact you have understood my problem perfectly and actually cleared the confusion!
I think this issue is arising since it as an intermittent problem. If it would have been something else related to the immobilizer system, the light would never come on and subsequently never let the car start!

On a slightly different note -
For users who don't have an OBD scanner how does one recognize that the immobilizer system is indeed at fault ?

[RSR]

Originally Posted by hrbheda

No RSR you have not confused me further! In fact you have understood my problem perfectly and actually cleared the confusion!
I think this issue is arising since it as an intermittent problem. If it would have been something else related to the immobilizer system, the light would never come on and subsequently never let the car start!

Thanks! Yes, it's because of the intermittent & infrequent nature of the issue. If it were a serious fault in the immobiliser system, then the "immobiliser warning lamp" would either never come on, or it may keep flashing.

On a slightly different note -
For users who don't have an OBD scanner how does one recognize that the immobilizer system is indeed at fault ?

Yes, normally one wouldn't suspect the engine immobiliser being at fault when there is an intermittent starting problem. In your case, the car starting up when it is push-started (after cranking but refusing to start by turning the key) would point to everything other than the engine immobiliser.

The very fact that the car can be started through push-starting would make one believe the immobiliser is working fine. Because if it was not allowing the car to start, then the car should not start at all by any method (at least on cars with modern key transponder-authenticated, ECU-controlled immobilisers)!

If the "engine immobiliser lamp" keeps flashing on the instrument cluster, then the problem would be easy to identify, but that doesn't always happen.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by RSR

I guess hrbheda is referring to the "immobiliser warning lamp", while a4anurag is referring to the "check engine lamp" or "malfunction indicator lamp", and that's where the confusion seems to arise.

I have the wire from the owners manual for the "Immobilizer Light" and not the CEL. Just to clear the doubts.

I guess systems work differently in a Hyundai so apologies to both of you to confuse you further.

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

When the car does not start, the "immobiliser warning lamp" refuses to light up on your i10.

Greetings All!
As you can probably guess - Its happened again!

Same problem as we have been discussing earlier.
Unfortunately, the car was quite far away from the service centre so the SA couldn't send the technician to follow up on that GScan!

When i spoke to him at length he said, the GScan will identify exactly what part of the system is at fault - wiring or the different modules itself.
I told him about our discussions on tBHP and asked if we could go ahead with changing the antenna coil. He said he wouldn't want to give me a false sense of relief that it would surely solve my problem.

I also asked him about the fault code that i got and if he checked up on it. He said that the code i got is a general code for the immobiliser system. To pin point a exact part the codes range from P1690-P1699 which relate to different parts and operations of the system.

I asked him to ask to the higher ups at Hyundai to figure something out and he said he will call back when he gets some definitive answers from them!

Any suggestions to what I should do next ??

[RSR]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I have the wire from the owners manual for the "Immobilizer Light" and not the CEL. Just to clear the doubts.

I guess systems work differently in a Hyundai so apologies to both of you to confuse you further.

I'm sorry for mistaking the lamp you were referring to. Since you mentioned the CEL in one post, I thought you were referring to that.

Like you, I too believe the immobiliser lamp should light up and refuse to go off or keep flashing, in case of some common problems with the immobiliser system. However, in this case it seems to be a rare problem where the immobiliser lamp does not light up at all.

Originally Posted by hrbheda

As you can probably guess - Its happened again!

Same problem as we have been discussing earlier.

My apologies for the late reply. It's unfortunate that the problem did not get resolved on removing the steering shroud, checking and tightening the connectors.

When i spoke to him at length he said, the GScan will identify exactly what part of the system is at fault - wiring or the different modules itself.

If the G-Scan has the ability to identify the exact component causing the problem, then the best bet would be to use it immediately when the car refuses to start. If the problem can be replicated when the G-Scan is around, then he would be able to follow the troubleshooting procedure based on whatever code(s) and other data the G-Scan may divulge. This would be the correct & best way of diagnosing the cause and fixing the issue.

Since this problem is intermittent (and rather infrequent) and also fails to occur when the car is in the service station, you can try something.

When the car refuses to start, don't attempt to start it by jerking the steering and trying again, or by push-starting it. Leave the steering as it is and don't even apply the steering lock. Get the Hyundai guy to come to the place with his G-Scan tool and diagnose the fault.

Of course, this cannot be done wherever you go. It has to be in a secure parking place (such as home or office), or somewhere close to the service centre.

I told him about our discussions on tBHP and asked if we could go ahead with changing the antenna coil. He said he wouldn't want to give me a false sense of relief that it would surely solve my problem.

I also asked him about the fault code that i got and if he checked up on it. He said that the code i got is a general code for the immobiliser system. To pin point a exact part the codes range from P1690-P1699 which relate to different parts and operations of the system.

Although I still view the antenna coil as the prime suspect, I have to say that he is indeed correct, as it could also be due to some other issue. In such a scenario, replacing the antenna coil may not solve the problem.

Even the DTC (P1690) points to four causes, the antenna coil being only one of them.

I asked him to ask to the higher ups at Hyundai to figure something out and he said he will call back when he gets some definitive answers from them!

Any suggestions to what I should do next ??

Did he call you back after consulting a expert? We are running out of options now.

There is one more thing we can try, without replacing anything. And that is to re-program your keys into the ECU again. This has worked in a couple of cases as reported on other forums.

The key's internal chip itself can be programmed once, and only once. Your keys are programmed at the factory with information specific to your car.

However, the car's ECU can be made to "forget" your keys, and can then be re-programmed to accept the same keys again. If this procedure does not cost too much, you may ask him to try it.

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

If the G-Scan has the ability to identify the exact component causing the problem, then the best bet would be to use it immediately when the car refuses to start. If the problem can be replicated when the G-Scan is around, then he would be able to follow the troubleshooting procedure based on whatever code(s) and other data the G-Scan may divulge. This would be the correct & best way of diagnosing the cause and fixing the issue.

Originally Posted by RSR

When the car refuses to start, don't attempt to start it by jerking the steering and trying again, or by push-starting it. Leave the steering as it is and don't even apply the steering lock. Get the Hyundai guy to come to the place with his G-Scan tool and diagnose the fault.

I tried not touching the steering column once. Didn't start with one key. After a few minutes without doing anything it started right up with the same key.

Originally Posted by RSR

Of course, this cannot be done wherever you go. It has to be in a secure parking place (such as home or office), or somewhere close to the service centre.

The frustrating thing is the car is always too far from the service centre.
And if it happens to be at my house, the problem happens at the fag end of the working hours of the SC.

Originally Posted by RSR

Although I still view the antenna coil as the prime suspect, I have to say that he is indeed correct, as it could also be due to some other issue. In such a scenario, replacing the antenna coil may not solve the problem.
Even the DTC (P1690) points to four causes, the antenna coil being only one of them.
Did he call you back after consulting a expert? We are running out of options now.

Not yet. He did call me to give an update and said that it would be best if i leave the car with him until the fault actually occurs in front of him.
Quick question-If I do replace the antenna coil, the connectors will be the same(going into the coil and not the one on the coil itself). Wont this loose connection problem start all over again later on?

Originally Posted by RSR

There is one more thing we can try, without replacing anything. And that is to re-program your keys into the ECU again. This has worked in a couple of cases as reported on other forums.
The key's internal chip itself can be programmed once, and only once. Your keys are programmed at the factory with information specific to your car.
However, the car's ECU can be made to "forget" your keys, and can then be re-programmed to accept the same keys again. If this procedure does not cost too much, you may ask him to try it.

I will ask him about this procedure.

I have my exams coming up from tomorrow and am busy until the 22nd and hence need the car. Can't have one car off duty for the time being.
Since i need to constantly keep in touch with the SA, I'm thinking of postponing it until after the exams are over.

If i do get time and can adjust the schedule of the cars needed i am thinking of keeping the car with him until both of us are absolutely sure the issue has been resolved!

[RSR]

Originally Posted by hrbheda

I tried not touching the steering column once. Didn't start with one key. After a few minutes without doing anything it started right up with the same key.

There is nothing as frustrating as this when diagnosing an issue - an intermittent problem that occurs infrequently and sorts itself out if left untouched, and then occurs again after some time.

The frustrating thing is the car is always too far from the service centre.
And if it happens to be at my house, the problem happens at the fag end of the working hours of the SC.

This must only add to the above frustration.

Quick question-If I do replace the antenna coil, the connectors will be the same(going into the coil and not the one on the coil itself). Wont this loose connection problem start all over again later on?

Yes, if it turns out to be a problem with the other connector, then it would happen again, of course.

That's why replacing the antenna coil may not be a sure-fire fix for this issue.

He did call me to give an update and said that it would be best if i leave the car with him until the fault actually occurs in front of him.

I have my exams coming up from tomorrow and am busy until the 22nd and hence need the car. Can't have one car off duty for the time being.

Since i need to constantly keep in touch with the SA, I'm thinking of postponing it until after the exams are over.

If i do get time and can adjust the schedule of the cars needed i am thinking of keeping the car with him until both of us are absolutely sure the issue has been resolved!

Yes, this is the best thing to do now. Don't let this affect your exam preparations.

Use the workaround method to use the car till your exams get over. Always carry your second key with you (on a separate ring), and give the steering a nice jerk to get the car started with either key.

After the exams get over, you can work on finding a permanent fix to this issue once and for all.

Do keep us updated.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to say this earlier. Wish you good luck for your exams!

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

After the exams get over, you can work on finding a permanent fix to this issue once and for all.
Do keep us updated.

Sure Will.
See you all on the 22nd!

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

Do keep us updated.

Thanks for the wishes RSR!
Update:
Good News - Bad News

As my luck would have it, i had take the car to my college. While returning home, as u can guess, it happened with me.
I had kept the scanner in the car along with a printout of the DTC chart which RSR provided earlier on in the thread (part of the immobiliser system write up). I also installed the torque pro app on my dads phone should he have to use it if the car didn't start with him.
I immediately ran the app and to my surprise i got a new code P1676.
According to the chart it means its a SMARTRA error and the meaning is invalid mesage from SMARTRA to PCM/ECM.

Now , since its an intermittent issue i surely think its the antenna coil or the wiring loom from the SMARTRA to the antenna coil/ignition switch or both.

Any inputs guys!!!! I think i am heading for a major expense.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by hrbheda

I immediately ran the app and to my surprise i got a new code P1676.
According to the chart it means its a SMARTRA error and the meaning is invalid message from SMARTRA to PCM/ECM.

Now , since its an intermittent issue i surely think its the antenna coil or the wiring loom from the SMARTRA to the antenna coil/ignition switch or both.

Look at the below link:

SMARTRA Message Error

Looks like you'd be having a fat bill. Sorry if I have missed reading your post completely, is the car under warranty?

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Look at the below link:

SMARTRA Message Error

Looks like you'd be having a fat bill. Sorry if I have missed reading your post completely, is the car under warranty?

Sadly, its not under warranty.
From what i understand from the link you provided, i think if the key is also acting up sometimes it may cause the delay and consequently doesn't let it start.

Now that it may be a SMARTRA error i will be giving the car to the SC tomorrow. If it stops accepting any key i may be stuck and will have to get it towed.

Will update when i give the car to the SC and follow ups.!!

[RSR]

Originally Posted by hrbheda

Update:
Good News - Bad News

Now , since its an intermittent issue i surely think its the antenna coil or the wiring loom from the SMARTRA to the antenna coil/ignition switch or both.

Any inputs guys!!!! I think i am heading for a major expense.

So we've got a P1676 DTC now. This complicates things a bit.

This could mean one of the following three things:


One - there could be a problem with the connectors somewhere. The instrument cluster would have to be removed to have the connections to the SMARTRA checked.


Two - the problem could be because of some code "corruption" or "spurious" code occurring in the ECU. I don't know how this can happen, but this is what was mentioned on the other forum.

The good thing if this is the case is that it can be resolved by merely re-programming your existing keys into the ECU (no need for new keys). This is the procedure I mentioned in my previous post.


Three - I seriously hope this is not the case (a faulty SMARTRA). A replacement may not be cheap.


The following PDF has the relevant portions of the workshop manual (including the troubleshooting sequences) for Hyundai's immobiliser unit.

Although it is that of the Genesis Coupé, the mechanism and DTCs all seem very similar to that on the i10 and other Hyundais.

Please go through pages 40, 41 & 42 of this PDF to know the possible causes & troubleshooting sequence:

http://www.williamworley.com/genesis...r%20System.pdf

[hrbheda]

Originally Posted by RSR

So we've got a P1676 DTC now. This complicates things a bit.

I've take a print of the both the documents. I'll go through it in detail and have a chat with the SA since he is quite technically inclined.

To eliminate all 3 possible causes i will ask him to follow what documentation he has from hyundai regarding this problem and then explain the work systematically.

As soon as my exams are over i will ask him if i can be at the SC when he does work on my car.

Till then, the car will not go anywhere since i don't know if it will start again if such a problem occurs again.
Lets Hope for the best!
BTW, any ideas how much does the SMARTRA unit costs ?

Thanks for all your help RSR and Anurag!

[honeybee]

Last week my Accord wouldn't start. On turning the ignition the engine seemed to crank, but didn't start. Also the car vibrated a lot as if someone was shaking it violently.

I called my regular mechanic, suspecting a rat had chewed off some wires. The mechanic examined the car, including the fuel pump. He confirmed that the pump was fine and the spark plugs were getting electric current supply. He diagnosed that the battery, Bosch made, was giving only 8.5 volts as against 12 needed to start the car, and took the battery out for charging.

Today he says the charged battery hasn't helped. He says the engine is spinning wildly as if there are no pistons inside, and that it doesn't seem to have any compression.

Now, what are the symptoms of a petrol engine not having compression?
What are the chances of the engine losing compression four days after a glitch-free 50km trip to Mumbai?
Is the diagnosis correct?
If yes, what are the damages I am looking at?

Fyi, it is a 2.3 litre MT Accord, 2003 model, bought used last November, and this is the first time it gave any trouble.