[Sunilrj]

Signs of a Major Scam ? Coverup ? (this is also Posted on my Thread)

It appears that there is some Major scam or coverup as far as Engine Oil Specifications are concerned: Below are the contents of my Mail to the People at SAIPL, as well as a reply received By Soham Bhaumik from Castrol India.

Mail to Skoda:

lease find attached the Scan of the Skoda yeti /Superb/Laura Manual regarding the Oil specifications as well as the Data Sheet of Castrol Magnatec professional which is used by the service centres across india.



The User Manual Catergorically states that for the 2.0 103Kw Diesel Engines Conforming to BS4 Specifications the Oil required to be used is one that conforms to VW 507 00 Standard (BS4 does not have a DPF) it also lists a word of caution which is reproduced below:

" Only the above-mentioned oils may be used on vehicles with flexible service inter- vals (QG1). We recommend always refilling with oil of the same specification since this will maintain the properties of the oil. In exceptional cases, you must top up only once engine oil complying with Specification VW 502 00 (only for petrol en- gines) or Specification VW 505 01 (only for diesel engines) to maximum 0.5 litres. You must not use other engine oils - risk of engine damage! "


Now coming to the Castrol Magnatec Professional Data Sheet, it mentions that the Oil Just Conforms to the VW 502 00 to 505 00 Standards and not even 505 01 Standard prescribed. In Such a Case why are the Service Centres Mandated to use the particular Oil and Not the Oil Conforming to VW Specifiations prescribed in the Manual ?. Could you please make available the oil conforming to the VW 507 00 Specifications ?

5009_Magnatec_Professional_5W-40_119398_2009_06.pdf

Copy of this mail is also being forwarded to Castrol India for comments.

Reply Given by Castrol India to Soham

Dear Soham Skoda had recommended VW 50700 oil in the 1st circular for CRDI engines but subsequently knocked it off in their 2011 Service circular . It is basically a Skoda decision . As discussed Please see the attachment for the fully synthetic Magnatec Professional B4 5w40 specs which is the recomended grade now. Best Regards


Castrol Magnatec Professional B4 5W-40.pdf

My Queries:

1. If SAIPL Changed the Specifications in their 2011 Service Circular why are the Old Specs being continued in the User Manuals of Vehicles Bought in 2011

2. The Difference between Magnatec professional and Magnetec Professional B4 is just the 'B4'! Do the service Centres Provide us information on what oil they use ?

3. why wasnt an addendum added to our user Manuals ?

4. Skoda Needs to Come out in the Open along with the reasoning for lowering the Oil Specs, as according to the above user Manual VW 507 00 is the standard prescribed for EU4/BS4 Vehicles without DPF

5. The Warning put by Skoda regarding use of other Grade Oils is quite a Serious One to Ignore.

6. Also when Soham Spoke to The representative of Castrol India on the Phone His reply was totally Different, though when he put it in writing he did a Complete U Turn!

[Sunilrj]

Addendum to the earlier Post:

7. Since the Laura, Yeti and Superb are all CKD's and not locally Manufactured, what changes have been made by SAIPL in the engines, that are different from EU4 Engines without DPF that they had to change the Oil Specs in 2011 and not in 2009 when the TDI vehicles were being Imported into India ?

[xplorauto]

Originally Posted by Sunilrj

Signs of a Major Scam ? Coverup ? (this is also Posted on my Thread)

It appears that there is some Major scam or coverup as far as Engine Oil Specifications are concerned: Below are the contents of my Mail to the People at SAIPL, as well as a reply received By Soham Bhaumik from Castrol India.

...

Dear Soham Skoda had recommended VW 50700 oil in the 1st circular for CRDI engines but subsequently knocked it off in their 2011 Service circular . It is basically a Skoda decision . As discussed Please see the attachment for the fully synthetic Magnatec Professional B4 5w40 specs which is the recomended grade now. Best Regards

...

2. The Difference between Magnatec professional and Magnetec Professional B4 is just the 'B4'! Do the service Centres Provide us information on what oil they use ?

...

4. Skoda Needs to Come out in the Open along with the reasoning for lowering the Oil Specs, as according to the above user Manual VW 507 00 is the standard prescribed for EU4/BS4 Vehicles without DPF

5. The Warning put by Skoda regarding use of other Grade Oils is quite a Serious One to Ignore.

6. Also when Soham Spoke to The representative of Castrol India on the Phone His reply was totally Different, though when he put it in writing he did a Complete U Turn!

...

PFA below, a visual comparo, of the relevant VW oil specs (viz. 505.00, 505.01, 507.00) based on multiple parameters using a tool that I discovered on the Internet.

Information from all sources found so far has clearly established the fact that VW 507.00 is indeed a more advanced engine oil grade specification for the modern CRDI based TDi engines. If you observe in the spider-web chart, the 507.00 (marked blue) outperforms the 505.00 (marked green) and 505.01 (marked yellow) in every parameter.

Originally Posted by kryptonite

...
Also, did you read this? Link
...

The only whitepaper that initially appeared to be contradicting this, was later found to be talking of the older 1.9L PD (Pump-Duse) TDi engines and not the newer 2.0L CR (CRDI) TDi engines.


In the light of the response that I received from Castrol, there are indeed some questions for which Skoda, and perhaps even the VW group, needs to do some answering. The top 3 of them being:

1. Do not provide compatibility assurance of VW505.01 grade lubes for CR TDI engines in Indian conditions. Establish if you can with technical explanations that the VW505.01 is a better suited lube for these engines as compared to the VW 507.00 in our conditions.
2. If they are able to do that credibly, as @Sunilrj also said, why was this information not published to all Skoda customers either as an addendum in the user manual, or as a written communique either in the form of an email or post
3. If however, Skoda cannot come up with a credible justification, the obvious question is, how are they going to compensate their customers for the potential engine or oil pump failures that can result in future or the degraded fuel economy that was caused by this non-conformance.

cheerz

[dkaile]

^
With regards to this 507 00 debate, I would like to point out that I had also seen this oil available at my dealership, namely Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow but it was a 5W30 grade oil and for Indian hot conditions this oil was deemed unsuitable by Skoda. It was available earlier, and my dealership still has stocks of it in 1L packs @1305/-, but Skoda has since shifted to a more suitable 5W40 oil for Indian conditions and also as we don't use DPF equipped engines in India -

[xplorauto]

Originally Posted by dkaile

With regards to this 507 00 debate, I would like to point out that I had also seen this oil available at my dealership, namely Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow but it was a 5W30 grade oil and for Indian hot conditions this oil was deemed unsuitable by Skoda. It was available earlier, and my dealership still has stocks of it in 1L packs @1305/-, but Skoda has since shifted to a more suitable 5W40 oil for Indian conditions and also as we don't use DPF equipped engines in India -

Yes, a 5w-30 grade lube is thinner, but any VW507.00 grade oil is always fully synthetic.

In the 1990s, car owners needed to be more concerned when using lighter viscosity oils in harsher driving conditions (e.g. hot summer conditions) because many motor oils were not fully synthetic or didn't contain necessary additives. This made oil more susceptible to premature breakdown in normal conditions and especially under extreme conditions.

Today however, lighter viscosity synthetic motor oils that meet Vw quality standards are much more advanced and contain all the necessary components to achieve higher fuel mileage, lower emissions, and protect the engine under extreme conditions (i.e. hot summer conditions). Therefore, making sure you are using a higher viscosity oil in your car is not as critical today as it was back in the 1990s.

Today’s synthetics provide much better protection when hot than mineral-based oils did, even if their viscosity rating is lower. For example, 5W30 weight oil is considered fine for all driving conditions in PD and Common Rail TDIs, even in the desert in summer. That explains why 5w-30 grade lubes that are compliant with VW507.00 are freely available in even hotter climates of Arabia. Here is what I found is Castrol's Arabian website

[Sunilrj]

Originally Posted by dkaile

^
With regards to this 507 00 debate, I would like to point out that I had also seen this oil available at my dealership, namely Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow but it was a 5W30 grade oil and for Indian hot conditions this oil was deemed unsuitable by Skoda. It was available earlier, and my dealership still has stocks of it in 1L packs @1305/-, but Skoda has since shifted to a more suitable 5W40 oil for Indian conditions and also as we don't use DPF equipped engines in India -

Dhiraj, its been a Big Sham!

The Castrol representative had sent a Mail saying that the Oil Conforming to 505.01 namely Castrol Magnatec B4 Professional is to be used.

I visited the Service Centre and it appears that the oil that is being used is Castrol Magnatec Professional VW 505.00. Attached is the pic of the Barrel. The spec sheets are in my Earlier Post



Also my Service Manager informs me that he received a call from SAIPL confirming that they will be dispatching VW 507.00 Specification oils. So now where does the Hot Country Theory of Skoda India Go ? if these Oils were indeed to be used why the hurry in dispatching the VW 507 00 Grade oils ?

If you observe the user Manual that i have uploaded it mentions BS4/EU4/EU5, without DPF. when these specs are printed in the Manual and the vehicle is a CKD with Absolutely No indian Component going into the Vehicle who did the revision of the Specs? why did he revise the specs and were these revisions approved by Skoda CZ or the competent authority in the VW group abroad ? what about those vehicles which were wrongly filled with these oils ? The engine would have been damaged as per their caution in the Manual. will they extend the engine Warranty by two more years ? will they recall all the cars where this wrong grade oil has been used and replace the oil, bearing the cost of oil, filter, drain plug, flush ? what about those cars where the oil pumps have failed ?

[kryptonite]

Originally Posted by Sunilrj

I visited the Service Centre and it appears that the oil that is being used is Castrol Magnatec Professional VW 505.00. Attached is the pic of the Barrel. The spec sheets are in my Earlier Post

Not quite. The oil being used is Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40, which meets an impressive array of specs, including VW 505.01 & MB 229.51. Here's its product data sheet: Link

Originally Posted by xplorauto

Information from all sources found so far has clearly established the fact that VW 507.00 is indeed a more advanced engine oil grade specification for the modern CRDI based TDi engines. If you observe in the spider-web chart, the 507.00 (marked blue) outperforms the 505.00 (marked green) and 505.01 (marked yellow) in every parameter.

You may or may not have seen this post here, but if not, please take a look: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2986423.

Here's an intersting data point when you use that tool. If you compare the various specs (i.e the various properties covered under the area of graph), the 2 most demanding specifications are VW 507, and MB 229.51. They're close, with slight differences. While VW 507 mandates 5W-30, MB 229.51 could either be met with 5W-30 or 5W-40.

Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40 complies to:
ACEA C3
API SM/CF
BMW Longlife-04
dexos2*
Meets Fiat 9.55535-S2
Meets Ford WSS-M2C917-A
MB-Approval 229.31/ 229.51
Renault RN 0700 / RN 0710
VW 502 00/ 505 00/ 505 01
Spec sheet: Link

Castrol EDGE Professional LongLife III 5W-30 complies to:
ACEA C3
Porsche C30
VW 504 00/ 507 00
Spec sheet: Link

Compare Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40 & Castrol EDGE Professional LongLife III 5W-30 in the graphical tool, here's what you get:

[amidoc]

Hi
Was searching the various forums to figure out the a suitable oil which would meet both the Skoda 505.01 and possibly the 5W 40 requirement for India.

Have found a oil from motul. Please find the description and the online link
MOTUL 5W-40 OEM Specific Oils VW 505.01 502.00 505.00

Specially designed for cars which follow fixed oil drain intervals (15000 km in Europe) powered by Tdi, Turbo Diesel engines fitted with or without Unit Injector (Volkswagen PD), without Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) or gasoline engines. Suitable for any types of fuel : leaded, unleaded gasoline and diesel fuel.
APPROVALS VW 505 01 ? 502 00 ? 505 00 PERFORMANCE Meets FORD WSS M2C 917A requirements Official approvals of VW guarantee the quality of the product development and manufacturing process. Synthetic base stock provides outstanding lubrication properties in order to handle additional load on valve train due to unit injector actuation, minimizes friction and ensures resistance at high temperature observed in modern engines. Avoid wear on valve train in order to preserve engine performances. "Mid SAPS" technology for a better compatibility with last generation on catalytic converters. Anti-oxidation, Anti-wear, Anti-corrosion, Anti-foam properties.
Viscosity grade SAE J 300 5W-40 Density at 20øC (68øF) ASTM D1298 0.848 Viscosity at 100øC (212øF) ASTM D445 13.9 mmý/s Viscosity at 40øC (104øF) ASTM D445 84.9 mmý/s Viscosity index ASTM D2270 167 Pour point ASTM D97 <-36øC / <-33øF Flash point ASTM D92 215øC / 419øF TBN ASTM D 2896 7.4 mg KOH/g


Two questions remain

1) Is this oil suitable?
2) if so how do source the same here

Its available on amazon usa (type in motul 5W 40)

[Sunilrj]

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Not quite. The oil being used is Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40, which meets an impressive array of specs, including VW 505.01 & MB 229.51. Here's its product data sheet:

with due respect to your knowledge on Oils, ETKA 7.3 Rev. 476, which the A.S.S. as well i have does not show VW 505.01 or Vw 505.00 as the Oil to be used in TDI Engines w.r.t to my Yeti or a friends Laura. It still does show that the Oil grade required is VW 507.00 - BTW The ETKA of the A.S.S. is homologated to India, Indian Prices

Please find attached the Spec Sheet of OE Professional which is no doubt 505.01 compliant,but is this the same oil that goes into your engine. The castrol that goes into your engine is Manufactured in India! Also please refer the Scan of User Manual attached in my earlier thread on the use of Oils.

catalogue-castrol-magnatec.pdf

Also if what you argue is Correct why is Skoda India informing the A.S.S. that The VW 507.00 Grade oil will be made available to order in a couple of days ?

[kryptonite]

Originally Posted by Sunilrj

Also if what you argue is Correct why is Skoda India informing the A.S.S. that The VW 507.00 Grade oil will be made available to order in a couple of days ?

Why are you asking me mate ? I was merely correcting your statement about the Castrol Magnatec Professional OE only complying to VW 505.00. On the contrary, its a very high quality oil, one of the best available in the 5W-40 grade.

My Rapid's manual recommends VW 507 as well, and like you, I'd love to also understand why Skoda & VW (both) recommend 505.01 for non-DPF cards in India. Keep us posted with what comes out of your discussions with them.

[xplorauto]

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Compare Castrol Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40 & Castrol EDGE Professional LongLife III 5W-30 in the graphical tool, here's what you get:

That tool my friend is for comparing relative performance of oil-specs, not oils. I would be apprehensive to rely on the results if the tool is used to combine multiple specifications to obtain the performance characteristics of any particular product.

Just think!!!

If the combined characteristics of the the older Magnatec Professional 5w-40 OE were to be so much better than that of the more modern Edge Professional LL-III 5w-30, why should Castrol even bother to formulate a new lube? Not just that, why should a superior product be positioned in an inferior category. Edge is the premium offering from Castrol. Why would they not call the 5w-40 OE as a Edge instead of Magnatec.

So clearly there is something that is out of place. Perhaps the tool may not have been designed to be used that way. Although I must admit that your approach was fascinating.

[bloodred]

Would be closely watching this space.

I was in same predicament last year. While the manual (June 11) mentioned VW 504 as standard for TSI, I was unable to find a VW 504 compliant oil.

I wrote to Shell to inquire about VW 504 compliant oil. I got an email from somebody in shell asking about my location and then they stopped responding. The trail mail showed that my mail had been forwarded through 2-3 people in Shell before the last guy wrote to me.

Then I wrote to Mobil. Since I'd only asked for VW 504 compliant oil and not mentioned the car brand, they assumed it to be an Audi and the ASM confirmed that Audi Delhi and Gurgaon use Mobil's products. He still didn't comment on VW 504. When I wrote back that it's required for a Skoda and whether it's available with A.S.S / open market, they didn't respond further.

What's the logic of manual saying 504, when the A.S.S. as well as oil companies are silent about it?

[Sunilrj]

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Why are you asking me mate ? I was merely correcting your statement about the Castrol Magnatec Professional OE only complying to VW 505.00. On the contrary, its a very high quality oil, one of the best available in the 5W-40 grade.

My Rapid's manual recommends VW 507 as well, and like you, I'd love to also understand why Skoda & VW (both) recommend 505.01 for non-DPF cards in India. Keep us posted with what comes out of your discussions with them.

well My dear fellow Bhpian. it so happens that the specs of the Magnatec Professional that are available on the castrol India website clearly state that it is just 505.00 compliant. The oil is manufactured in India and not imported.

as regards what has come out of my discussion here are a few excerpts

1. 'we do not know why that oil was recommended'

2. 'India being a Hot climate 5w40 is recommended' - My query Arabia an Australia have climatic extremes. why isnt that recommended there ?

3. ' Sir Please do not escalate this or Publish this anywhere. we will make the 507.00 grade oil available within 3 days'

4. Castrol India Rep. says the oil is Magnatec professional B4 which is to be purchased by the A.S.S. how come Magnatec OE is purchased ?

5. Volkswagen India A.S.S. service manager: ' Sir who knows about what oil is used. People want the service costs to be cheap. so we use Magnatec professional'

6. Skoda India Karnataka RSalesM with regard to another question raised by a buyer as to why his Laura does not have fog lamps: 'tell the bugger that we have given him a 3 lakh discount'

7.Castrol India rep at 9.30 am: 'yes sir, you are right. VW 507 00 spec oil was jointly developed by us and that is to be used. we will import 500 Litres from Singapore on a priority basis and make it available'. at 7.30 pm: ' the oil used is the right grade. it should have "professional B4" on the packing. etc etc.

BTW neither the Regional service Manager nor the technical team at Pune / Shendra have even bothered to reply to my mails as each one wants to save his posterior!

also if you refer to my fist post with the scan of the user manual, 2.0 103Kw engines BS4 require VW 507 00 compliant oil. i got my yeti in 2012. if these specs were changed in 2011, why dont i have as a part of the user manual a revised oil spec guide ?

also if you visit the Skoda India Website it would tell you that these oils (505.01) are effective from 2009, whereas the 2009 slide is below:



The FAQ section relating to Oils as on date reads thus: (Note the date of revision at the bottom)

[kryptonite]

Originally Posted by Sunilrj

well My dear fellow Bhpian. it so happens that the specs of the Magnatec Professional that are available on the castrol India website clearly state that it is just 505.00 compliant. The oil is manufactured in India and not imported.

Thanks for all the info shared. But again, Castrol, as with any other company for that matter, will look to localize and manufacture whatever they can within each country to save on costs. The spec that I shared in my earlier post is global, and not specific to any country. You could look up the specs here: http://msdspds.castrol.com/

The Magnatec Professional OE 5W-40 oil used by Skoda & VW in the workshops is VW 505.01 compliant without a shadow of a doubt. Feel free to visit a Castrol distributor and confirm for yourself; look at the Drums (which are sold in bulk to VW/Skoda) & 4L/1L cans (that you can buy from a dealer or at any VW/Skoda workshop for DIY top-up). Suggest we move on and focus on why they switched to 505.01 from 507 for India.

Attaching pictures from the 1L bottle that I pick up regularly for top-up. Cheers!

[Sunilrj]

Originally Posted by amidoc

Hi
Was searching the various forums to figure out the a suitable oil which would meet both the Skoda 505.01 and possibly the 5W 40 requirement for India.


Two questions remain

1) Is this oil suitable?
2) if so how do source the same here

It may be suitable but Skoda Recommends Castrol and Please Check the Scan of the User Manual in my earlier post. even if an Oil from a competing Brand or their previous partner Shell is compatible as per the Service Circular of 2011 it SHOULD NOT BE USED and only Castrol should be Patronised.

secondly Purchase of oil on the Interest and Shipment is not possible from abroad as posts as well as couriers do not carry it as its classified as a Hazchem.

Originally Posted by bloodred

Would be closely watching this space.

I was in same predicament last year. While the manual (June 11) mentioned VW 504 as standard for TSI, I was unable to find a VW 504 compliant oil.

I wrote to Shell to inquire about VW 504 compliant oil. I got an email from somebody in shell asking about my location and then they stopped responding. The trail mail showed that my mail had been forwarded through 2-3 people in Shell before the last guy wrote to me.

Then I wrote to Mobil. When I wrote back that it's required for a Skoda and whether it's available with A.S.S / open market, they didn't respond further.

What's the logic of manual saying 504, when the A.S.S. as well as oil companies are silent about it?

Skoda Divorced Shell in 2011. Mobil / Motul Etc were never on their List. A.S.S. wouldnt have the slightest clue about Oils as most of them get the oil in Bulk packaging and the bulk packaging has just one sticker like i have photographed in the earlier post. whether it complies or not to a Particular specification is left to your discretion to analyse

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Thanks for all the info shared.

Feel free to visit a Castrol distributor and confirm for yourself; look at the Drums (which are sold in bulk to VW/Skoda) & 4L/1L cans (that you can buy from a dealer or at any VW/Skoda workshop for DIY top-up). Suggest we move on and focus on why they switched to 505.01 from 507 for India.

The Photo of the Labelling on the Bulk Supply Barrel was attached in my earlier post. That was clicked from the Skoda A.S.S. As regards the Castrol Distributor he has been totally clueless about VW 501, 502, 505, 501.01, 504, 507 and he just knows about 5W30 and 5W40. also when i obtained the Spec sheet of CMP OE 5W40 from the link you provided it said 'Claims to meet the following standards'. there is quite a difference between 'claiming' to meet a particular standard and 'conforming' to a particular standard.

We are not here to debate as to who is right and who is wrong. we are here to find out why 505.01 is specified to be used and is being used, even though my user manual says its 507.00 which is the recommended grade for EU4/EU5/ BS4 / Non DPF Engines. BS4 is an India Specific Standard and definitely when the Manual was printed by VW/Skoda they had considered India and Indian Conditions and thats why BS4 finds its mention there. if i were you, i would be thinking twice while even doing a oil change or top up, after i read the cautionary notes about engine damage in the user manual. if the specs did indeed change, then why arent our user manuals changed / corrected ? or an addendum attached ? since it is claimed that the specs changed in 2011 and we bought our cars in Mid 2012.

Also since the L,S,Y are all CKD's and on an earlier instance, when i had sent a mail to the technical Team to SAIPL about installation of Bluetooth, Auto Headlamps, they said their technical experts cannot modify the Specs of the CKD's. and here they have modified the Oil Specs. who cares after your engine/ oil pump fails after the warranty period ? Skoda will Still make money from the repair job!

Now just one last lingering doubt. If they were all along on the right, why are they arranging to send the VW 507 00 Specification Oil to the dealerships 'for those customers who demand for it' ? why did they have a sudden change of heart ?