[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

I am genuinely glad that this time they were proactive in reaching out to me, instead of waiting for me to write to Triumph India regarding the lack of support from them. Anyways, they wanted to meet to discuss my concerns and prove that they have used actual Triumph HD4X coolant, so I asked them to come over on Saturday itself. We ended up having a 2 1/2 hour long discussion on various topics, let me sum up the key points.
=====
Coolant used - Original or not?
The dealership team opened a bottle of new Triumph HD4X coolant in front of me and poured the contents of it into a plastic bottle for us to do a side by side visual comparison. They also poured some of the contents of the coolant into the cap so we could compare it to what Jaggu and I shared earlier. Honestly, I was very relieved to see that it looked close enough to what we extracted from my bike, the contents from my motorcycle being slightly more dark could be due to the some of the gunk from the radiator.

Point 1 - So my thinking was kind of spot on. Yes the coolant was indeed changed. How much, weather fully drained cannot be ascertained and there is no way it can be done scientifically now. Only thing that can be confirmed is, there was no flush done, which if Triumph does not have as process, cannot be held against the dealer.

Point 2 - I still would rate the Cochin dealer better to many others right across brands. Only few times in my lifetime i have seen dealership folks visiting customer to resolve and discuss an issue. Mostly by Maruti till now, but these guys did the right thing. In my book ^

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- the temperature gauge was showing either 5 or 6 bars. It was mostly 5 bars. I have taken 2 pictures with the trip meter to prove this. I have shared this with the dealership as well.

I am surprised you need so much experimenting to find out the bike is heating up? Just ride for 10 km in good ol city/town traffic and observe the fan and coolant reading. That is all. The bar moving one point up and down etc is minuscule and may be a result of fresh coolant and flush.

To conclude:

1. I do feel there was a goof up and maybe a cover up of the same with some convincing talks. Yes this could have been resolved much better.
2. Dealers should go beyond the works manual when things are out of the ordinary. In this case, they would have hooked up the laptop and ran diagnostics and it would have kept saying everything is fine. Unless the parameters are way off OR there is a sensor failure it will not show up in these software scans.
3. They could have double checked for air gaps and monitored actual coolant temps instead of solely relaying on the diagnostic software.

Hope this is a good learning for the dealer team also.

[srini1785]

DISCLAIMER : I am not a Big bike owner so my questions may be naïve.

1. Why do some members suggest the oil should be fully drained by flushing down the radiator before fresh oil is filled?. How's this "Air lock" which seems to be the root cause of all problems created?.

2. What does a single bar in the temperature gauge indicate in terms of absolute temperature ?. I mean, is it like a fuel gauge? or its it a linear scale.

The Fan is triggered ON / OFF by a thermostat which is connected directly to the temp gauge ( sensor ). So if the SVC fiddled around with the ON and OFF temperature settings then the effect is something like the one observed.

[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by srini1785

DISCLAIMER : I am not a Big bike owner so my questions may be naïve.

1. Why do most members suggest the oil should be fully drained by flushing down the radiator before fresh oil is filled?. How's this "Air lock" which seems to be the root cause of all problems created?.

2. What does a single bar in the temperature gauge indicate in terms of absolute temperature ?. I mean, is it like a fuel gauge? or its it a linear scale.

The Fan is triggered ON / OFF by a thermostat which is connected directly to the temp gauge ( sensor ). So if the SVC fiddled around with the ON and OFF temperature settings then the effect is something like the one observed.

1. Fresh coolant is without any residue or floating particles in it. When the coolant gets used up and goes through X number of heat cycles or an extended period in higher temperatures they form a gooey residue similar to sludge and that also gets circulated around the system. Most of it usually forms into bigger heavier clumps and finds it's way to the reservoir and sets itself at the bottom of it. But smaller lighter particles are still circulating and can get lodged in the coolant passages or inside the radiator.

Notice the amount of dirt in a 4-year-old coolant reservoir of the R3. We just ended up tossing the reservoir and get a new one as it is dirt cheap

That's why usually when you are draining the radiator fluids after let's say 2 years of usage, it's always a good idea to use distilled water/vinegar to flush the coolant out of it. Even though I have mentioned it on the last page with pictures I'll just mention it again on a capsule level again. So once you drain out the coolant, and then pour fresh distilled water through the radiator the fluid that comes out of the drain hole is still colored and old fluid which did not come out even though you had depressurized the system and drained it.

This is from my R1. The old coolant was lime green in color and I had used engine Ice which is purple in color. The difference is I had done only 2 passes of flushing with distilled water and used Engine Ice instead notice how the coolant in the reservoir is still greenish color? That's because even after 2 passes of distilled water the old coolant was not fully removed.

Refer to this post to see how 5-6 passes of distilled water clean out the cooling system here (Triumph Cochin - Repeated service issues)

You'd be surprised how many passes of fresh distilled water it takes before you pour distilled water through the radiator and fresh distilled water comes out the other end. At this point is when the radiator has been truly "flushed". From here you can just pour in new coolant and you have fresh uncontaminated coolant running through your coolant system.

2. So it's a bit tricky with this gauges thing. Many bikes have the actual temp displayed which is more helpful. For eg in my R1, the fan kicks in at 105 degrees C no matter what happens, now since I have ridden the bike extensively I know in certain situations if the bike takes more/less time to cool itself down to that point or not. It's something you get to know more you ride the bike.
For another example in CBR250, the cut-off point is 3 bars out of 6. The CBR no matter how bad the heating is, it won't go above 3 bars as the fans are good enough to maintain the temperature at that point and almost anyone who has had it jump to 4 bars has had issues in their cooling system. I had that happen once to me that was when the fan switch had gotten disconnected somehow, that was when the bike was brand new, and has never happened again ever since. For Dukes/RC it usually stays at a point where it's short of the last 2 bars, so on and so forth. So each owner of the bike knows the usual point of the bike when the fan activation /duration starts feeling out of character and they are usually right about it, after all, they know that bike best and it's easier to note subtle changes in cases like these.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Krishna

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by krishnaprasadgg

1. Fresh coolant is without any residue or floating particles in it. When the coolant gets used up and goes through X number of heat cycles or an extended period in higher temperatures they form a gooey residue similar to sludge and that also gets circulated around the system. Most of it usually forms into bigger heavier clumps and finds it's way to the reservoir and sets itself at the bottom of it. But smaller lighter particles are still circulating and can get lodged in the coolant passages or inside the radiator.

There was a second question about " Air lock" that i was also interested in knowing.

By nature , Oil and water don't mix. When you pour water ( or vinegar) you are simply draining the oil that is remaining in the radiator. Its not exactly cleaning the radiator of all the " Smaller lighter particles " . There's a filter along with the circulation pump which needs to be replaced every time oil is drained. Even then its not guaranteed that all these particles are drained out.

So now when all the oil is drained out how do you flush out the water that's trapped in the radiator?. I hope these bikes have a hygroscopic moisture drainer (what it called ?. dehumidifier ?). Water or vinegar may have adverse impact on key performance factors of a cooling oil.

My understanding is that there is no way to flush out all the oil residue inside an engine circulation system unless you open it fully and wash it in a bath.

[krishnaprasadgg]

Originally Posted by srini1785

There was a second question about " Air lock" that i was also interested in knowing.

Airlock as the name suggests happens when you drain the coolant completely and they cause a pocket of an air bubble to form that can block coolant from circulating properly. They are very easy to remove by just gently rocking the bike left and right when the fluid is filled and the bike is switched on. And it is very common that airlocks happen when you are bleeding a system. That's why in every service manuals for steps for bleeding radiator systems you will find the procedure that suggests running the vehicle for 10-15 mins till the fan kicks in to allow stray bubbles to rise to the top and escape and the rest just gently wiggle the bike side to side.

You can observe the same here in the ST service manual

Originally Posted by srini1785

By nature , Oil and water don't mix. When you pour water ( or vinegar) you are simply draining the oil that is remaining in the radiator. Its not exactly cleaning the radiator of all the " Smaller lighter particles " . There's a filter along with the circulation pump which needs to be replaced every time oil is drained. Even then its not guaranteed that all these particles are drained out.

Most radiator coolants used nowadays are water-based. That's why you see most coolants come pre-mixed or diluted with 50% distilled water. If you see the Triumph coolant it has the picture saying so in it.

You can read through the use of oil-based coolants in different applications here

If you are thinking of oil coolers present in certain bikes/ cars those are a completely different system of cooling where the oil is what is being cooled as opposed to here the radiator coolant is being cooled in LC(Liquid/Water Cooled).

Originally Posted by srini1785

So now when all the oil is drained out how do you flush out the water that's trapped in the radiator?. I hope these bikes have a hygroscopic moisture drainer (what it called ?. dehumidifier ?). Water or vinegar may have adverse impact on key performance factors of a cooling oil.

It is not advised to use normal tap water or drinking water, the minerals in them will cause oxidation and form deposits inside the coolant pathways, and the cause has the potential of causing a blockage.

Originally Posted by srini1785

My understanding is that there is no way to flush out all the oil residue inside an engine circulation system unless you open it fully and wash it in a bath.

Again, I am not sure if you are thinking of oil passages or coolant passage. Both are completely different. If you notice usually when you blow a head-gasket you find your engine oil drained to be brownish or puffy type in nature that is because of coolant and oil mixing which is generally immiscible in nature and causing that frothy gunky formation. Which is something you don't ever want to happen in an LC engine. Again goes to show, automotive radiator coolants are not oil-based but water-based.

Cleaning of oil passages is best done when the engine is disassembled because oil is always heavier than water and removing deposits/gunk from crevices is not an easy task, even with engine flushes it doesn't really work. What many people choose to do is to use engine oils with detergents in them(usually diesel engine oils) to try and extract as much as gunk for the engine oil passage lines within the engine and it works to an extent because for the detergent in them, but this same detergent presence is known to cause clutch slippage in petrol engines so they are usually not opted for an if used it's on a self discretion basis. Example for these are also dime a dozen on many forums and maybe even here.

Hope this clears it up.

P.S: We are straying away from the crux of the thread here. I am stopping my posts regarding this here.


Cheers
Krishna

[gthang]

Originally Posted by krishnaprasadgg

That's because even after 2 passes of distilled water the old coolant was not fully removed.
Cheers
Krishna

Just filling and draining will never get everything out because you never get to the pump itself unless you open that up as well. You will have to hook everything up, and run the engine for every cycle if you want to do a complete flush.

But highly unnecessary.

Cheers

Ride Safe

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by gthang

Just filling and draining will never get everything out because you never get to the pump itself unless you open that up as well. You will have to hook everything up, and run the engine for every cycle if you want to do a complete flush.

But highly unnecessary.

Cheers

Ride Safe

This is the only way and the right way to do a full flush. The bike has to reach operating temperature for every flush cycle.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Only thing that can be confirmed is, there was no flush done, which if Triumph does not have as process, cannot be held against the dealer.

Quite a few car manufacturers also do not recommend flushing the radiator nowadays. The reason for this is that the radiator is filled with factory supplied coolant and no distilled water is added to the coolant externally nowadays as was the earlier practice - (VW's G13 coolant has this same property now).

The distilled water that is added by the factory to the coolant is with zero minerals as against the distilled water which we get here which is mostly adulterated and contains minerals resulting in sludge formation in the coolant.

So if the vehicle (car or bike) has been using this coolant from the very beginning without any external inducement of water there will be no sludge formation at anytime.

This is why there is no recommendation of cleaning / flushing as the premixed coolant has made the useful service life of the coolant longer with zero sludge formation.

Manufacturers do not recommend flushing the radiator too as it will do more harm than good.

Flushing the engine with distilled water is an old practice that is required with earlier machines that use a mix of distilled water and coolant. The distilled water that is available is never completely free of minerals (because most distilled water itself isn't actually distilled water - it's fake) and will result in rust / sludge inducing elements remaining in the cooling circuit.

So the end result is while the water coming out at the end of the flushing cycle is clean, it will leave behind mineral residues that form rust / sludge etc.

Using radiator flushes in engines that use only coolant without any external dilution with distilled water will also harm the cooling circuit for the same reason.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Quite a few car manufacturers also do not recommend flushing the radiator nowadays. The reason for this is that the radiator is filled with factory supplied coolant and no distilled water is added to the coolant externally nowadays as was the earlier practice - (VW's G13 coolant has this same property now).

You mean to say premixed coolant, which has been a norm for a while. That does not mean it will not degrade or gunk will not form. Check VW coolant tanks, you will see lot of gunk floating around after about 20k km. I have one at home, so first hand experience. May work in cooler climates of Europe but no chance out here. This will happen even if you have not filled any distilled water from outside, basically the metal will react to coolant over a period of time and there is no way out apart from regular clean up in adverse condition like India.

For these high performance bike engines, under our extreme Indian conditions manufacturer specified intervals also does not work.

I have personally gone through this and see what happens to the coolant. And mind you the image is of the actual coolant and not even distle water flushed

There is lot of humbug about coolant going around, it is a very simple liquid and not a magic brew as it is made out to be.

[neil.jericho]

Update
The dealer principal for Syamadynamic Motorcycles, reached out to me today and we had a very positive, lengthy discussion on all the challenges that I have faced over the last couple of months including
- Extra 800 ml of engine oil used, which I was told is a Triumph official process and which magically became a home grown dealership process when I asked Triumph India about it
- forgotten and covered up work
- feedback on above two as well as other carelessness (handlebar set improperly, chain not tightened despite being on the job card etc) being posted on the forum, read by the dealership and ignored
- heat management issue introduced during the coolant top up process
- heat management issue remaining even after the coolant was changed
- heat management issue remaining even after investigation
- heat management issue being dismissed by the dealership and me left to solve it myself.

The gentleman was extremely understanding of my frustrations with his team and has apologized for the multiple oversights from their side. Though he and I are not the two most technically inclined motorcyclists, we had a detailed discussion on what could be the cause of the heat management issue, how things have exactly improved post the change to the Motul coolant etc.

We also had a short chat later in the evening by which time he had already reached out to Triumph India to understand potential solutions for such a heat management complaint. Since my bike is now running cooler with the new Motul coolant, they obviously cannot replicate the fan running continuously problem and 6 bars on the dash with the HD4X coolant that the dealership team insisted was normal, but I am genuinely appreciative of the fact that he is rolling up his sleeves and trying to get to the bottom of things himself. To be frank, this is something that the team that I was dealing with should have done themselves earlier, I dont know what stopped them from tapping into the extensive company support that they have.

Anyways, I was happy to note that the gentleman is looking closely into why there have been multiple gaps in the service quality from the dealership side, including, and this is what made me really happy, those that I experienced with regard to the first service. His customer first mindset has frankly not percolated down the team ladder, as I have unfortunately experienced, time and again. I hope that he is able to fix the different problems internally and that these changes have a marked improvement in the customer experience on the ground.

[shan_ned]

Good news to hear, Neil. This wouldn’t have happened if not for your thread in TBHP. Thanks to TBHP which is also a platform for helping individual vehicle owners.

When the dealer has apologised for their mistakes, hope this also puts the allegations against you to rest. The dealer is doing the right thing now by the way of approaching TI to get technical help. Having said that, I think your bike is running good now. Just that keep checking for a slight drop in the coolant level in case of any air bubble going out of your system and do a top up if necessary. Or else things look fine. Time for you to start riding and enjoying your Triple.

I also wish other dealers (especially the Bangalore Triumph dealer) takes a leaf out of this episode and mend their ways.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

You mean to say premixed coolant, which has been a norm for a while. That does not mean it will not degrade or gunk will not form. Check VW coolant tanks, you will see lot of gunk floating around after about 20k km. I have one at home, so first hand experience. May work in cooler climates of Europe but no chance out here. This will happen even if you have not filled any distilled water from outside, basically the metal will react to coolant over a period of time and there is no way out apart from regular clean up in adverse condition like India.

I have to disagree with you on the VW's as there is first hand experience with a couple of them - one of the cars is 8 years and 126000 kms and still with the original coolant (uses G12 which is not even the premixed one). The coolant level was / is regularly monitored and an occasional topping up with G12 done at home if below the max level.

VW does not recommend change of coolant during the life of the car unless there is a change in the colour of the coolant and I agree with their recommendation.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I have personally gone through this and see what happens to the coolant.

You've also given the reason for landing up in that situation

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I had neglected the annual service so I blame myself for not changing the coolant at 3 years, ideally 2 years for our Indian conditions.

Most probably a similar situation with your VW too. You'll find it doesn't require magic, just regular care.

[Turbanator]

I think even in BMW’s it’s no longer necessary to change unless there is contamination. That’s about the car but am not aware of the motorrad, should not be any different in my opinion.

Will be interesting to find out the jobs they recommend under check service schedule. I think owners manual will be the best place. Does Triumph specifically mentions this on the service manual?

[AMG Power]

Yes, BMW's also do not recommend a change of coolant unless there is contamination.

Triumph, if I am not mistaken, recommends a change at every alternate service which should be 32k or 2 years.

[dinu2506]

Interesting read. Never knew the role of the coolant beyond the cooling part - the fact that coolant change can actually cause a problem, distilled water could promote formation of sludge etc etc. Sort of relieved that I ride an air cooled Bonnie