[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe

Interesting that an adventure tourer has a road going and off road variants! Can't recall seeing that on any other model! At least in India.

Common at higher price brackets - most commonly known example is the Tiger XR and XC series.

But yes - unique at this price point.

[Neo18]

Another DOA product launch by Benelli. The folks at Benelli seem to have mastered this art! With pre-owned Versys at the 5-6 lakh range, and the impending launch of the Himalayan in the 650cc avatar, I really don't see who the target audience is for this vehicle.

And folks were calling the Z800 heavy at close to 230 kgs. Wonder what this 500cc 230 kg Benelli will be by comparison. Add to that mix , an atrocious short service interval and mighty expensive service and spares and we have all the ingredients for a blockbuster failure!

[neil.jericho]

I called up the Benelli showroom in Cochin to find out more about the 502 and 502X. They are renovating the showroom, it is still under the old management but being renamed. So there are some corresponding RTO delays. From what I heard earlier, the old showroom was closed down and the existing stock was cleared out at good discounts. It has looked quite empty the last few times I passed by it.


There is an option of booking the 502 and 502X online. If you do so, you get a Rs 10,000 voucher at the time of delivery that can be redeemed against Benelli riding gear and accessories. The expected waiting period is 60 - 80 days. Test rides should start in the 2nd week of April. While I was talking to the gentleman from the showroom, he already forwarded the brochures and details to me over whatsapp, so thumbs up to his proactivity. Ex showroom prices of the models are Rs 5 L (base) and Rs 5.4 K (X).

[HyperRetard]

Originally Posted by Neo18

Another DOA product launch by Benelli. The folks at Benelli seem to have mastered this art! With pre-owned Versys at the 5-6 lakh range, and the impending launch of the Himalayan in the 650cc avatar, I really don't see who the target audience is for this vehicle.

And folks were calling the Z800 heavy at close to 230 kgs. Wonder what this 500cc 230 kg Benelli will be by comparison. Add to that mix , an atrocious short service interval and mighty expensive service and spares and we have all the ingredients for a blockbuster failure!

The versys and the 502X are not comparable. The standard 502, yes. But the X has off road spoke wheels, larger 19' front tyre, and a whole lot of other stuff that will make it way better off-road than the Versys.

The Himalayan, I agree. But then the proof of a pudding lies in the eating, and I havent even heard rumours of a 650 Himalayan, leave aside the test prototypes, so I assume thats a bit far off.

Now to your third point of the Z800 being called heavy. Yes. That is one extremely heavy motorcycle.

The street triple, which was its primary competition had a kerb weight of 166 KG.
The Z800 has its kerb weight of 231 KG.
The z1000 had a kerb of 221 KG.
The speed triple 1050 was 212.

And lastly, adventure motorcycles weight a lot more. Because they are supposed to be tough. So there can be no weight saving by using lighter parts and fancier materials.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by HyperRetard

And lastly, adventure motorcycles weight a lot more. Because they are supposed to be tough. So there can be no weight saving by using lighter parts and fancier materials.

Exactly!

The focus with an adventure oriented motorcycle is it's ability to withstand abuse and take on a varied range of conditions. Outright acceleration and a high top speed are not a key requirement, although a decent cruising speed is definitely required. So, that way the product seems to be quite good.

The short service interval, abysmally poor service network coverage, high spare part prices, poor spare part availability are all BIG CONCERNS indeed, and will most probably break this motorcycle for our market here.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by HyperRetard

The versys and the 502X are not comparable. The standard 502, yes. But the X has off road spoke wheels, larger 19' front tyre, and a whole lot of other stuff that will make it way better off-road than the Versys.

What are you on about?

The Versys X300 also has spoke wheels (tubed - granted).
It also has a 19 inch front wheel.
And what is this whole lot of other stuff that is better offroad? The X300 will eat this TRk thing for breakfast on any hard core trail. Have you ridden a X300? Damn thing pulls like a tractor in 1st gear offroad. Superb throttle control. Please look up reviews by Fort9 and MC magazine and test ride one for yourself on an offroad trail (I have). And it weighs 184 Kgs wet.

Originally Posted by HyperRetard

And lastly, adventure motorcycles weight a lot more. Because they are supposed to be tough. So there can be no weight saving by using lighter parts and fancier materials.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Exactly!

The focus with an adventure oriented motorcycle is it's ability to withstand abuse and take on a varied range of conditions.

ADV motorcycles need not weigh a lot. This is a myth. The only reason adv bikes are built heavier is so that they can take load on the subframe - which is the load of a 200 pound pillion and the load of associated top boxes and side cases. Such bikes have traditionally always been built for the American and European audiences - who are much bigger than the rest of us and carry a lot lot more on their camping trips.

The KTM 690 enduro weighed all of 150 kgs wet and 139 dry. The only thing that needs to withstand abuse is the chassis and the suspension components on such a bike which is a light travel enduro. You will not take a heavy adventure bike offroad unless you have the skills and money. You need a light bike to take on varied conditions. Not something that weighs 250 kgs.

New chassis advancements means that weight has dropped considerably and bikes will continue getting lighter. Look where KTM is headed with its mid capacity adv bike.

KTM 790 ADV 105 bhp: 209 kgs wet.
Versys 650 70 bhp: 216 kgs wet.
Himalayan 23 bhp: 191 kgs wet.
Versys X300 38.5 bhp: 184 kgs wet.
TRK 502 45 bhp: 210 kgs wet.
KLR 650 37 bhp: 196 kg wet
Yamaha Tenere 660 47 bhp: 206 kg wet

Enduro bikes which are usually the most hammered bikes offroad - are the lightest bikes available. You really think weight = being able to withstand abuse? It's like saying the Hindustan Ambassador is the safest car on the planet!

[HyperRetard]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

What are you on about?


1) The Versys X300 also has spoke wheels (tubed - granted).
It also has a 19 inch front wheel.
And what is this whole lot of other stuff that is better offroad? The X300 will eat this TRk thing for breakfast on any hard core trail. Have you ridden a X300? Damn thing pulls like a tractor in 1st gear offroad. Superb throttle control. Please look up reviews by Fort9 and MC magazine and test ride one for yourself on an offroad trail (I have). And it weighs 184 Kgs wet.


ADV motorcycles need not weigh a lot. This is a myth. The only reason adv bikes are built heavier is so that they can take load on the subframe - which is the load of a 200 pound pillion and the load of associated top boxes and side cases. Such bikes have traditionally always been built for the American and European audiences - who are much bigger than the rest of us and carry a lot lot more on their camping trips.

2) The KTM 690 enduro weighed all of 150 kgs wet and 139 dry. The only thing that needs to withstand abuse is the chassis and the suspension components on such a bike which is a light travel enduro. You will not take a heavy adventure bike offroad unless you have the skills and money. You need a light bike to take on varied conditions. Not something that weighs 250 kgs.

3) New chassis advancements means that weight has dropped considerably and bikes will continue getting lighter. Look where KTM is headed with its mid capacity adv bike.

KTM 790 ADV 105 bhp: 209 kgs wet.
Versys 650 70 bhp: 216 kgs wet.
Himalayan 23 bhp: 191 kgs wet.
Versys X300 38.5 bhp: 184 kgs wet.
TRK 502 45 bhp: 210 kgs wet.
KLR 650 37 bhp: 196 kg wet
Yamaha Tenere 660 47 bhp: 206 kg wet

4) Enduro bikes which are usually the most hammered bikes offroad - are the lightest bikes available.

5) You really think weight = being able to withstand abuse? It's like saying the Hindustan Ambassador is the safest car on the planet!

1) The X300. Yes. Definitely. I thought he was talking of the Versys 650. But keep in mind that its a 300

2) Thats an enduro, mate. Not an adventure tourer. The next thing I know is that you'll bring in a KTM 450 and say that thing eats everything off-road, and weighs next to nothing. Lets compare oranges to oranges. Not apples.
Enduros, Dirt bikes and ADV tourers are three different categories.

3) I know that. Look at Tenere 700. 205 KG wet. At Yamaha reliability.

4) But an enduro is just that. An enduro. They dont get 20 litre fuel tanks and the ability to carry luggage and a pillion.

You cant head out for a three week long camping trip on an enduro. Or a RTW ride. (although people have done that on a Yamaha R1 as well)

5) As much as that is an immensely rude remark, I'll re-iterate that I meant that you cant use lighter fancier materials because of reliability concerns.
Ever visited ADVrider? Checked the Africa-Twin thread? Noticed how the folks over there buy better high duty rear racks and serrated foot pegs as the first mods. (both of which add weight)

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by HyperRetard

1) The X300. Yes. Definitely. I thought he was talking of the Versys 650. But keep in mind that its a 300

2) Thats an enduro, mate. Not an adventure tourer. The next thing I know is that you'll bring in a KTM 450 and say that thing eats everything off-road, and weighs next to nothing. Lets compare oranges to oranges. Not apples.
Enduros, Dirt bikes and ADV tourers are three different categories.

3) I know that. Look at Tenere 700. 205 KG wet. At Yamaha reliability.

4) But an enduro is just that. An enduro. They dont get 20 litre fuel tanks and the ability to carry luggage and a pillion.

You cant head out for a three week long camping trip on an enduro. Or a RTW ride. (although people have done that on a Yamaha R1 as well)

5) As much as that is an immensely rude remark, I'll re-iterate that I meant that you cant use lighter fancier materials because of reliability concerns.
Ever visited ADVrider? Checked the Africa-Twin thread? Noticed how the folks over there buy better high duty rear racks and serrated foot pegs as the first mods. (both of which add weight)

1. So what if its a 300? Power to weight figures matter, don't they?

2. Why can't you head out on a week long trip on a KTM690 enduro? Please explain to us how it is not capable? Its been taken on RTW trips documented on advrider itself. It is actually the perfect RTW travel enduro. Lyndon Poskitt is touring the world with everything he owns + doing the Dakar on his KTM 450. Are you going to debate that its not the best bike to adv ride?

3. And the Yammie still weighs less than the TRK. So what does that mean? Look at that vs the Tenere 660. Bikes launching now are getting more power and lesser weight. This only because of advancements in chassis engineering and engine orientation in some cases.

4. I brought up the enduro segment because you said adventure motorcycles weight a lot more. Because they are supposed to be tough This is a misnomer. Tough for what? Tackling offroad? Carrying more stuff? Which? Adv bikes weigh more because they have to carry a car load of luggage. It has nothing to do with offroad or varied road condition response. If anything, an ADV bike will probably have much much more damage to its components on the same trail you put an enduro on.

5. Please tell me you're joking. Can you describe what these fancier materials are? Do you know that KTM has launched its 790 ADV with a fuel tank at the bottom to bring in a low COG which is covered by carbon fiber to protect the tank from bruising? This is fancy material yes? You think you or me know better than engineers who build dakar championship winning bikes for a living?

Heavy duty rear racks = carry more luggage with wider surface area. Nothing to do with offroad durability. I have done it for my Versys 650. The rear rack will still be connected to the rear sub frame. That has to be engineered well from the factory.

Serrated foot pegs = traction offroad when you stand on the pegs and wider surface area for huge dirt boots. The mounting point on the chassis is exactly the same. If that mounting point is weak (like on the Himalayan video with Santosh), then whatever fancy bit you put there WILL break. I have done this also for my Versys 650 with SW Motech Offroad pegs.

Sorry if I was rude earlier School's over.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

ADV motorcycles need not weigh a lot. This is a myth. The only reason adv bikes are built heavier is so that they can take load on the subframe - which is the load of a 200 pound pillion and the load of associated top boxes and side cases. Such bikes have traditionally always been built for the American and European audiences - who are much bigger than the rest of us and carry a lot lot more on their camping trips.
New chassis advancements means that weight has dropped considerably and bikes will continue getting lighter. Look where KTM is headed with its mid capacity adv bike.

It's like saying the Hindustan Ambassador is the safest car on the planet!

That last analogy is pointless.

Anyway, any clue on what impact would 'new chassis advancement' have on the pricing of a product - Not just the manufacturing cost, but the full lifecycle cost?
That may be a reason why Benelli didn't try that path. Also maybe they knew that if they go up in price, they don't stand a chance against the excellent competition.
I, personally, favour lighter motorcycles as well as you rightly pointed out, but to me, the weight of this bike at its price point isn't a deal breaker - the other things that I mentioned are.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

That last analogy is pointless.

Anyway, any clue on what impact would 'new chassis advancement' have on the pricing of a product - Not just the manufacturing cost, but the full lifecycle cost?
That may be a reason why Benelli didn't try that path. Also maybe they knew that if they go up in price, they don't stand a chance against the excellent competition.
I, personally, favour lighter motorcycles as well as you rightly pointed out, but to me, the weight of this bike at its price point isn't a deal breaker - the other things that I mentioned are.

I'll only talk about what I know to some extent. A brand new chassis is obviously a huge engineering cost - probably only second to the engine development itself.

And like most other things, you get what you pay for. Benelli caters to a market that values bling (butch looks, good exhaust sound etc) over most other things that make a good capable motorcycle (light chassis, good spread of torque, longer service intervals etc).

[TRR]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

And like most other things, you get what you pay for. Benelli caters to a market that values bling (butch looks, good exhaust sound etc) over most other things that make a good capable motorcycle (light chassis, good spread of torque, longer service intervals etc).

This service interval issue has been misquoted for far too long, I guess. Didn't Benelli revise their service intervals for all their bikes to the standard 6000km/ 6 months interval? This is pretty much on par with Kawasaki's service intervals so not sure that this will favour the Kawasaki any more so than the Benelli. I'm willing to be corrected here if Kawasaki has changed theirs upwards too


Also, based on what I have read so far, the spare parts cost also aren't exactly much better in the Kawasaki's case. The Kawasaki's only trump card is the service network coverage, which should be leagues ahead of Benelli and should benefit someone looking out for an ADV tourer bike in India.

[HyperRetard]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

1. So what if its a 300? Power to weight figures matter, don't they?

2. Why can't you head out on a week long trip on a KTM690 enduro? Please explain to us how it is not capable? Its been taken on RTW trips documented on advrider itself. It is actually the perfect RTW travel enduro. Lyndon Poskitt is touring the world with everything he owns + doing the Dakar on his KTM 450. Are you going to debate that its not the best bike to adv ride?

3. And the Yammie still weighs less than the TRK. So what does that mean? Look at that vs the Tenere 660. Bikes launching now are getting more power and lesser weight. This only because of advancements in chassis engineering and engine orientation in some cases.

4. I brought up the enduro segment because you said adventure motorcycles weight a lot more. Because they are supposed to be tough This is a misnomer. Tough for what? Tackling offroad? Carrying more stuff? Which? Adv bikes weigh more because they have to carry a car load of luggage. It has nothing to do with offroad or varied road condition response. If anything, an ADV bike will probably have much much more damage to its components on the same trail you put an enduro on.

5. Please tell me you're joking. Can you describe what these fancier materials are? Do you know that KTM has launched its 790 ADV with a fuel tank at the bottom to bring in a low COG which is covered by carbon fiber to protect the tank from bruising? This is fancy material yes? You think you or me know better than engineers who build dakar championship winning bikes for a living?

Heavy duty rear racks = carry more luggage with wider surface area. Nothing to do with offroad durability. I have done it for my Versys 650. The rear rack will still be connected to the rear sub frame. That has to be engineered well from the factory.

Serrated foot pegs = traction offroad when you stand on the pegs and wider surface area for huge dirt boots. The mounting point on the chassis is exactly the same. If that mounting point is weak (like on the Himalayan video with Santosh), then whatever fancy bit you put there WILL break. I have done this also for my Versys 650 with SW Motech Offroad pegs.

Sorry if I was rude earlier School's over.

1: He said 'nobody would buy it over a used Versys for 5-6 lakhs', by which, I assume, he is talking about the 650.
And I explained to him why the 502X would be bought over a Versys 650.
You brought in the 300X.

2: Yeah. Go ahead. Do it. Who's stopping you.
But remember, people bought a three plus decade old 37 BHP KLR650, which weighs 196 kg to go touring. In 2018. So maybe they know something.

Here's a question for you. Imagine you wanting to ride from say BLR to Bhutan. With a friend. And your luggage. And her luggage. What are you going to choose?


or


Ofcourse you'll say a Versys 650 will do a Bhutan trip just fine, but what if I want something more off-road worthy.

3: Thats poskitt. A man as fit as a Dakar racer. Thats why he is racing Dakar. Mere mortals like me cant do it.

4: Tough for those two. Combined. Why does it always have to be an either or. Two people in reasonable comfort + their luggage.
Tiger 800 ✓
Africa Twin ✓
502X ✓
KTM 1190 and 1290 ADV ✓
790 Adventure ? (unlikely. Havent seen one with luggage. And at that price no)

The 790 costs $500 less than an Africa Twin. Is that price difference enough to warrant getting one over an Africa Twin?
Not for me.
But I'm pretty sure @naveenroy can better defend an AT.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by TRR

This service interval issue has been misquoted for far too long, I guess.

It is a 12,000 km oil change interval service for the kawasaki. At 6,000 kms just the air filter gets taken out and cleaned.

The above is mandated as per the service manual.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Are we missing something? Looks like the Benelli 502 twins are off to an excellent start - with over 150 bookings.

While both models are mid-capacity adventure motorcycles, the 502X is more off-road focused. Interestingly, the company has received more bookings for the more expensive model (TRK 502X) at 85 units. The standard model, meanwhile, makes up the remaining 65 units booked.

Source - ACI

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Are we missing something? Looks like the Benelli 502 twins are off to an excellent start - with over 150 bookings.

Honestly, Im not surprised given the nature of the Indian buyer's mindset for big bikes. In our country, all too often motorcycles, especially superbikes and imports, are valuated and dismissed from behind a keyboard rather than after a test ride. On multiple whatsapp groups Ive heard, oh the TRK 502 is too heavy, only 47 HP saar, its so under powered, why not buy a Tiger instead etc.


But the bike looks good (important for bragging rights) and has enough power for the usual weekend riding and once in 6 months interstate ride. Benelli has been around long enough to have built a name in India. Servicing is probably going to be more affordable when compared to say a Triumph Tiger, in the long run.


I feel as the Indian market matures, we will see the shift to mid sized as well as A2 level adventure bikes. Expect to see more of the V Stroms and V650s and even the TRK502s out on our roads, and off them as well. Of course, the arrival of the KTM adventure 390 will make this shift even more pronounced.