[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

A lac too much, in my opinion.

The Versys is a bigger and lot more powerful bike.

This one (Benelli) is a different weight class. Essentially the same power as a Duke 390 on an adventure platform.

The main additions being seats, suspension, wheels, screen and tank. The spoked wheels and dual purpose tyres absolute ly hit the right notes.

A 1.5-1.75 lac premium would be the sweet spot. Max.

That's about 4 lacs. Same territory as the pricier (but much higher brand equity) Yam and Kawa 300 cc twins.

Am not complaining about your lower price prediction at all. But considering where the tnt 300 is priced vis a vis the 390 is what I am wondering about.

I guess just picking this up without a bother about the resale values or brand equity will make sense only if it is far significantly cheaper than the versys.

4 on road? Shut up and take my money!

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The main additions being seats, suspension, wheels, screen and tank. The spoked wheels and dual purpose tyres absolute ly hit the right notes.

A 1.5-1.75 lac premium would be the sweet spot. Max.

That's about 4 lacs. Same territory as the pricier (but much higher brand equity) Yam and Kawa 300 cc twins.

Doc, as a consumer comparing competitors that makes a lot of sense in terms of pricing. However Benelli isnt really playing that game, look at how high the 300 is priced compared to the KTM 390s.


But if you look at it from the perspective of how it will fit in Benelli's product catalogue, you might agree 4 lacs is a little unlikely. The prices I could find online (admittedly from 6 months ago - http://www.iamabiker.com/newsdesk/20...ces-announced/ ) peg the TNT 300 M / P at Rs 3.44 and 3.54 lacs respectively with the 600i at above 6 lacs. Pricing too close to the 300s will lead to cannibalization. Priced too high and they lose the value proposition. Hence plugging it right in the middle at around 5 lacs on road in Bangalore (translation - much cheaper in other cities) sounds about right.


If KTM does ever get around to making an adventure 390 at a mouth watering price though .....

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Doc, as a consumer comparing competitors that makes a lot of sense in terms of pricing. However Benelli isnt really playing that game, look at how high the 300 is priced compared to the KTM 390s.


But if you look at it from the perspective of how it will fit in Benelli's product catalogue, you might agree 4 lacs is a little unlikely. The prices I could find online (admittedly from 6 months ago - http://www.iamabiker.com/newsdesk/20...ces-announced/ ) peg the TNT 300 M / P at Rs 3.44 and 3.54 lacs respectively with the 600i at above 6 lacs. Pricing too close to the 300s will lead to cannibalization. Priced too high and they lose the value proposition. Hence plugging it right in the middle at around 5 lacs on road in Bangalore (translation - much cheaper in other cities) sounds about right.


If KTM does ever get around to making an adventure 390 at a mouth watering price though .....

I agree with both you and Red Liner that looking at the pricing of their 300, the 500 will not cost 4 lacs but around 5.

But my post, as you rightly put it, is Indian biker centric, looking at the present alternatives he already has and what they bring to the table vs what else extra this new offering does.

The reason that KTM hasn't given us a 390 adventure is that they do not see the numbers in that. And it is more Bajaj than KTM when it comes to brand positioning and product and price strategy for India.

Bajaj knows the Indian biker, and the sales of the KTMs, both the Dukes and the RCs, are testimony to that.

There is increasing talk in Pune about a 600 cc KTM twin that is ready and being tested. Not a 500. And it has some obscene BHP numbers.

2016 end - 2017 beginning is when we should see it.

Let's wait and see .....

P.S. The numbers are so obscene, that I cannot post them here till I hear some more confirmation. Think what their singles pump out from a single pot per cc, and then think of a twin just taking that forward .....

[schitre05]

very exciting to see the new offerings from Benelli.
Atleast they are attempting to give a varied choice to the Indian consumer.

On the pricing front they have to be a bit aggressive to grab any market share.
The 5L price point is going to get crowded in the near future.

The HD street 750 is already there, then the talk of the new Ducati being positioned around that mark, this puts the Benelli Brand/product position in a fix cause even if the Kawa V650 is around 1L to 1.5 L expensive, it will have a better chance of being successful than the TRK and the same can be said about the Leoncino when pitched against baby scrambler from Ducati.

Having said that, I am happy at the ample options being available at similar price point. Makes the entire buying phase exciting

All the Best Benelli, bring on the products and price them well, that's the only way to increase your footprint.
Cheers

[neil.jericho]

I was reading up on the Benelli TRK502 yesterday but a few close up pictures of the fit and finish of the headlights took the wind right out of my sails. Of course these are still early days and the final product should hopefully have closer attention to detail. Attached are a couple of pictures from zigwheels and xbhp. You be the judge.

Originally Posted by ebonho

The reason that KTM hasn't given us a 390 adventure is that they do not see the numbers in that. And it is more Bajaj than KTM when it comes to brand positioning and product and price strategy for India.

Bajaj knows the Indian biker, and the sales of the KTMs, both the Dukes and the RCs, are testimony to that.

Im a little surprised that Bajaj has missed out on adventure market but in all fairness its a slowly maturing segment. Hopefully Bajaj finds sufficient volumes to justify the R&D investment and caters to the growing bunch of riders who are currently waiting for the Himalayan due to the paucity of options. 12 months ago I would have scoffed at the idea of buying an adventure bike, now though things have changed.

[Added_flavor]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

I was reading up on the Benelli TRK502 yesterday but a few close up pictures of the fit and finish of the headlights took the wind right out of my sails. Of course these are still early days and the final product should hopefully have closer attention to detail.

This is a crude model and I am sure the fit and finish will be up to the mark on the production models.

What's a bigger disappointment for me is the 210Kg unladen weight and 815 mm seat height. How can a 500 cc twin have the same dimensions of a 800 cc triple?

The first impression I got when I saw this bike was that this bike is supposed to cater to those guys who can't handle the bulk of the Tigers or the GTs even if they can afford them. But that doesn't seem to be.

EDIT: Since it's not on the thread, putting up the specs. Source: xBhp

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I hope they keep the kerb weight low. Say about 150kgs.

Originally Posted by ebonho

How are they going to manage that?

I cannot see a bike that looks like that weighing as much as a KTM Duke 390.

My guess would be 170-180 odd kilos dry. Which means nudging 200 with a full tank of fuel.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Wishful thinking I know. Guess it's time to hit cross fit.

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

What's a bigger disappointment for me is the 210Kg unladen weight and 815 mm seat height. How can a 500 cc twin have the same dimensions of a 800 cc triple?

Hmmmmm.

Bye bye TRK (short for "Truck" ?) 502 for me at least .

@Neil, I've had this discussion with others here in the past. There is a big difference how the West looks at adventure bikes and how we look at them, and what we need from them.

1) We are smaller. No pussy-footing around that fact.

2) 99 out of 100 of us are never going to cross continents.

3) Our adventure riding encompasses our city roads all the way to the mountains and deserts and forests and hinterlands we bash our bikes through.

The adventure in adventure bike should not be limited in finding new innovative ways to pick it up once you drop it. And drop it you will, once you start pushing in places where civilization and help is far away, and unlikely to reach in the near future. At least not in time to be of any help to the downed rider - you.

For a bike putting out 46-47 odd bhp and weighing 210 kilos, give me a Ninja 650 or a ER6N with 70 ponies and 200 odd kilos and proven reliability any day.

Its not just enough for an adventure bike to look like one.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Hmmmmm.

Bye bye TRK (short for "Truck" ?) 502 for me at least .

@Neil, I've had this discussion with others here in the past. There is a big difference how the West looks at adventure bikes and how we look at them, and what we need from them.

1) We are smaller. No pussy-footing around that fact.

2) 99 out of 100 of us are never going to cross continents.

3) Our adventure riding encompasses our city roads all the way to the mountains and deserts and forests and hinterlands we bash our bikes through.

The adventure in adventure bike should not be limited in finding new innovative ways to pick it up once you drop it. And drop it you will, once you start pushing in places where civilization and help is far away, and unlikely to reach in the near future. At least not in time to be of any help to the downed rider - you.

For a bike putting out 46-47 odd bhp and weighing 210 kilos, give me a Ninja 650 or a ER6N with 70 ponies and 200 odd kilos and proven reliability any day.

Its not just enough for an adventure bike to look like one.

I agree. A heavy bike is just asking for trouble. Add your bag weight, and it's not going to be easy to lift that thing up. I was following an rtw over on advrider by a guy who pretty much rode his 690 all over the place, and he was very clear after all that riding that if he had to do this all over again it would be the 390 in adventure guise. He didn't need the extra power nor did he need to look like he stole the incredible hulks bike while on a rtw.

And reliability. You know, you buy an adv bike to get to places where there's nobody and potentially no help. Why would you buy something unproven to do this? I think I will save up for the versys myself.

That said, doc, is the 500 twin being possibly readied for a touring option? Ktm have repeatedly denied being able to use the 390 frame as an adv tourer on technical issues. Apparently it needed to be completely redesigned which calls for a major investment. I don't remember what the issues were in specific.

Doc, Why wouldn't you buy the versys 650?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I was following an rtw over on advrider by a guy who pretty much rode his 690 all over the place, and he was very clear after all that riding that if he had to do this all over again it would be the 390 in adventure guise.

And this when the bike that has 28 more ponies weighs just 10 kilos more.

That said, doc, is the 500 twin being possibly readied for a touring option? Ktm have repeatedly denied being able to use the 390 frame as an adv tourer on technical issues. Apparently it needed to be completely redesigned which calls for a major investment. I don't remember what the issues were in specific.

Which 500 twin? If KTM, then the latest news doing the rounds is that it is a 600 ....

No idea on how it looks or what genre it belongs to yet.

Doc, Why wouldn't you buy the versys 650?

I never said I would not.

I would like to check out the KTM 600 twin first though before deciding.

To be honest though, it would in all likelihood be the KTM. My blood has been running orange for some time now. And my medical colleagues have not been able to diagnose why.

[TheCelestial]

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

This is a crude model and I am sure the fit and finish will be up to the mark on the production models.

What's a bigger disappointment for me is the 210Kg unladen weight and 815 mm seat height. How can a 500 cc twin have the same dimensions of a 800 cc triple?

I fail to see the correlation between engine configuration and seat height. You cannot have a low saddle height and high GC (which is what most ADV bikes need). To be honest 815 is so low its friendly. Most Adventure bikes are 830 +. Even the Z800 has 834 mm saddle height

Although this seems more like a heavy sports tourer rather than out-and-out adventure.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I agree. A heavy bike is just asking for trouble. Add your bag weight, and it's not going to be easy to lift that thing up.

Mate many adventure motorcycles will fall in the heavy category if one keeps a threshold of 160 kgs. Also there are tons of riders you will find on advrider forum who have successfully completed their touring/cross country touring on such adventure bikes. I had mentioned this on some other thread which I am unable to recollect about the weight dynamics on an adventure tourer. Many people don't understand the difference between a dual sport, enduro, and an Adventure Tourer. Hence they label an Adventure Tourer as a heavy bike. It is not their mistake as in India not many people are aware of an Adventure Tourer nor do they have the technical knowledge about an Adventure Tourer. Well here's an enlightening article bringing out the differences between the dual sport, enduro and adventure tourer very clearly.
http://www.advpulse.com/adv-bikes/du...-best-for-you/

Also to give you a few examples of Adventure Tourers and their weight:
220+kgs dry and 250+kgs wet BMW R1200GS

200+kgs BMW F650GS

220+kgs dry KTM 1920 SuperAdventure

210+kgs dry KTM 1190 Adventure

270+kgs manual and 280+kgs DCT transmission Honda Crosstourer

200+kgs dry Honda XRV750 aka Africa Twin

180+kgs dry Honda XRV650 aka Africa Twin

180+kgs wet Kawasaki KLR650

I hope this helps.

And reliability. You know, you buy an adv bike to get to places where there's nobody and potentially no help. Why would you buy something unproven to do this? I think I will save up for the versys myself.

If you think Versys 650 is good for you then cool. There is no point belittling the Benelli in terms of reliability just because it not as popular as other brands. BTW there was a post on this very forum wherein it was mentioned one guy named Mario Iroth did a cross country ride on a Benelli motorcycle. Here's the news article on the same: http://www.oncars.in/bike-news/life-...-tnt-600i/7154
http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...de-396533.aspx
http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...nt-600i/22535/

[Added_flavor]

Originally Posted by TheCelestial

I fail to see the correlation between engine configuration and seat height. You cannot have a low saddle height and high GC (which is what most ADV bikes need). To be honest 815 is so low its friendly. Most Adventure bikes are 830 +. Even the Z800 has 834 mm saddle height

Although this seems more like a heavy sports tourer rather than out-and-out adventure.

I did not mention 'weight' in my last line. That's was I was referring more to when comparing with the tiger. For a 500cc, 40 odd bhp engine, this should've been lighter. As said by the others, power to weight goes for a toss right there.

With regards to seat height, looking at the pictures, I was expecting it to be more in the range of 790 - 810mm (which is in fact achieved on the tiger by triumph's seat that's a part of accessory list).

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

220+kgs dry and 250+kgs wet BMW R1200GS

1200 cc 125 bhp

200+kgs BMW F650GS

800 cc 71 bhp - a misfit in between this list here, but just putting the other relevant specs out there for currently produced Adventures tipping the scale at or over 200 kilos.

220+kgs dry KTM 1920 SuperAdventure

1300 cc 160 bhp

210+kgs dry KTM 1190 Adventure

1200 cc 150 bhp

270+kgs manual and 280+kgs DCT transmission Honda Crosstourer

1200 cc 127 bhp - 270-280 kilos is madness regardless

Disregarded lighter sub 200 kilo Adventures, those not manufactured any longer, or those throwbacks to a simpler time like the Bullet which will probably never change with time in terms of performance, much loved as they might be, as the world moves on.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ebonho

1200 cc 125 bhp

800 cc 71 bhp - a misfit in between this list here, but just putting the other relevant specs out there for currently produced Adventures tipping the scale at or over 200 kilos.

1300 cc 160 bhp

1200 cc 150 bhp

We were talking about the weight factor vis a vis lifting up the motorcycle and handling. I don't know from where the BHP factor was brought in and how it will help a heavy(in your parlance) motorcycle not to fall and handling. Infact there are many reviews that actually praise the handling of these heavy(in your parlance) adventure tourers.

1200 cc 127 bhp - 270-280 kilos is madness regardless

Madness to you maybe not for other adventure touring riders. The Honda Crosstourer has been creating a lot of waves in the adventure touring market regardless of its weight it has won international engine of the year award for the V4 DCT transmission engine coupled with a beautiful shaft drive and equipment to match. If one wants a lighter bike they can look at other dual sport enduro type motorcycles. This is an adventure tourer and most of the adventure tourers weigh upwards of 180 kgs.

Disregarded lighter sub 200 kilo Adventures, those not manufactured any longer

Nope the KLR650 is very much in production to this day and would easily cross the 200kg+ mark with luggage. Also Honda is close to launching the Africa Twin labelled as CRF1000L and that one too weight 220kgs+.

or those throwbacks to a simpler time like the Bullet which will probably never change with time in terms of performance, much loved as they might be, as the world moves on.

Look over on some international forums where the Bullets are still considered as adventure touring motorcycles despite dating back to 1950's. Infact the famous adventure tourer forum named advrider has the Bullet on its homepage and many riders there are still inclined and rave about the Bullet. All in all I think we are going way .

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

We were talking about the weight factor vis a vis lifting up the motorcycle and handling.

I do not know who the "we" refers to but most of us here were referring to the the massive mismatch between the weight and the power.

Yes, weight just on its own is a huge liability off road.

It becomes even worse when its mated to an anemic motor.

Clue: The Bullet.

I don't know from where the BHP factor was brought in and how it will help a heavy(in your parlance) motorcycle not to fall and handling. Infact there are many reviews that actually praise the handling of these heavy(in your parlance) adventure tourers.

You continue to extrapolate international riding experiences on to the Indian riding scene and its unique needs.

Of the Adventures, I've ridden the Tiger. Its huge. It handles well. Its even done well in the Raid (a Pune boy, who trains with a close friend of mine, also on a Tiger).

These bikes are heavy by any definition. Not just my parlance.

A 200 kilo Ninja 650 feels heavy. Try doing off road with a Ninja 650 what you would with a lighter bike.

It is all contextual. And comparative.

These 220-250 kilo Adventures would feel light and flickable compared to massive Harleys and luxo barges like the Honda Goldwing.

Does not make the big Adventures light bikes. It just makes them lighter than the really heavy to heaviest ones.

Madness to you maybe not for other adventure touring riders. The Honda Crosstourer has been creating a lot of waves in the adventure touring market regardless of its weight it has won international engine of the year award for the V4 DCT transmission engine coupled with a beautiful shaft drive and equipment to match.

Apparently, not just to me, but many others as well. Many (except you) on this very thread incidentally. Again, it would be a good idea to discuss these things as an Indian biker riding in India and not continuously talking of what riders do abroad. Chalk and cheese. 280 kilos is 100 kilos more than your now-shifted goalpost of 180 kilos. That's the equivalent of adding a very big/fat guy on to the bike before you or your luggage even gets on to it. Or one and a half healthy Indian guys. Or two really scrawny college types working out to become race jockeys.

If one wants a lighter bike they can look at other dual sport enduro type motorcycles. This is an adventure tourer and most of the adventure tourers weigh upwards of 180 kgs.

There is a humungous difference between the 180 kilos you have now come down to (shifting goalposts?) and the 210 kilos the Benelli weighs in at.

My post above was to show to you mainly that just the weight of a bike means nothing. The Adventures you referred to in your post earlier were mostly 1200 cc behemoths that all produced enough bhp to pull that weight. 130-160 horses pulling 220 kilos is VERY different from 46 odd horses trying to lug 210.

Hope you can appreciate the point that was being made.

Nope the KLR650 is very much in production to this day and would easily cross the 200kg+ mark with luggage.

It is the KLR I was referring to as the Bullet-like throwback to a simpler time that is much loved, but will never really improve greatly in terms of performance. It was and will always remain a venerable slow battle tank.

Not a bad thing per se, for those riders who like riding venerable slow battle tanks.

Look over on some international forums where the Bullets are still considered as adventure touring motorcycles despite dating back to 1950's. Infact the famous adventure tourer forum named advrider has the Bullet on its homepage and many riders there are still inclined and rave about the Bullet.

I believe we are on Team BHP. Let's discuss Adv Rider on Adv Rider. And discuss simply the bikes here?

The Bullet is an oddity for those guys. An amusing and nostalgic one at that.

Nothing more nothing less. Please do not read any more into the photo of the fully laden Bullet doing the Leh circuit (something which Kinetics have done in the 90s) as anything more than that.