[amitk26]

Originally Posted by watashi75

I was talking about jaywalkers, people who cross roads while traffic is moving, and never make eye contact with you unless your car is too close, that is when they give you the look.

Does it help if I tell you that traffic never stops on the roads so it is just a matter of chance if one risk life before Watashi75's car or a truck and people prefer a car to a truck.

Originally Posted by watashi75

I think you are missing the point that people are not using the existing infrastructure even when they are available. In Hyderabad itself there are more than 20 foot over bridges that I know of and which are not used by people trying to cross the road.
.

You missed the word Universally available just constructing 20 foot over bridge does not mean anything in a city of 70 lakh .
The point is people do not cultivate habit of using the infrastructure if it is not there everywhere and usable. If I have to cultivate habit of risking my limbs 99% of times I cross the road it is expected that I will take same or lesser risk in other 1% scenario even if infrastructure is available.

When a road surfacing lying is taken up why some 10% budget of that can't be earmarked for a simple steel cross over bridge. Or some 2 percent budget of a city street for paining zebra crossing ?

For your information for golden quadrilateral project the cost is about 4 carore per KM , I think a steel crossover bridge can be constructed easily in 10 - 15 lakhs or less but how many villages lying on GQ have crossing facility ?

[sriku]

Originally Posted by amitk26

You missed the word Universally available just constructing 20 foot over bridge does not mean anything in a city of 70 lakh .
The point is people do not cultivate habit of using the infrastructure if it is not there everywhere and usable. If I have to cultivate habit of risking my limbs 99% of times I cross the road it is expected that I will take same or lesser risk in other 1% scenario even if infrastructure is available.

If I understand this statement and the earlier posts correctly, it's the administration's fault as they have not put up enough bridges. Lack of bridges conditions people to jaywalk, even where there are bridges. Such jaywalkers are protected by law enforcement even when the motorist is helpless to avoid them. Motorists get fined/jailed/harassed when they hit jaywalkers. Motorists incur vehicle costs both as capital expenditure to procure, and maintenance costs. Motorists pay road taxes, RTO charges, insurance premiums, pollution test costs, regular vehicle checkup costs, toll costs, depreciation and a host of other costs to legally own, run and maintain a vehicle, but still have to deal with the problem of people jaywalking and face liability?

I fail to understand any justification, any reason or excuse to encourage or condone jaywalking. I do not intend to be abrasive, just trying to lay out the facts as I see them.

[vasoo]

First requirement is to have proper provisions for pedestrians. Most of the road development happening now is in complete disregard for them. It is not surprising to see them dashing across "express highways" and other busy streets in cities. Of course there are quite a few who completely disregards existence of walk-over bridges or under bridges. But in 90% of the case, they simple dont exist in the right place. So until road projects given sufficient provisions for pedestrians, "jay walking" cannot be a punishable offense.

After all why do most people "jay walk"? It is not because they are irresponsible or simply crazy. Its because they have been struggling to cross roads or dont have any other option. Have a look at the timings of traffic lights in Bangalore and you will get an idea how much importance is given to pedestrians. They will virtually have to sprint across the road to avoid being knocked down by vehicles. Forget about children, old people and ladies. Auto wallahs have a great time dropping people from one side of the road to the other on roads like ORR in Bangalore where there are very less breaks in the median and crossing anywhere else is guaranteed with instant death.

Saw one article today in newspaper that somebody was apparently killed in early morning on a busy road and his body remained there for a couple of hours during which none of the vehicles passing by cared about that body and finally cops had to scrape his remains off the road. Probably he was jay walking at 4AM! Great sense of compassion, even to dead people.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by sriku

I fail to understand any justification, any reason or excuse to encourage or condone jaywalking. I do not intend to be abrasive, just trying to lay out the facts as I see them.

May I ask if you walk sometime which you must being a human being

(1) How long exactly do you wait on zebra crossing for traffic to stop ? If you wait does it ever stop ?

What do you do if you find Auto , bikes and cars positioning themselves haphazardly on the crossing and inching forward to occupy every single centimeter left before bumper of next vehicle.

(2) If you have ever visited Bangalore how exactly you crossed major junctions where neither there is any footpath nor a crossing ?

(3) On most of the signals left turn is free which is extramly dangerous as free left traffic continue sand force people to cross risking their life.

Under the above circumstances any kind of walking is jaywalking.

To top all this Bangalore traffic police started a campaign to fine jaywalkers on brigade road in 2001 , My friend payed 100 Rs fine this was when half of this narrow lane was being used as payed parking by BBMP and there is absolutely no space to walk on one side of the road and then traffic never stops on This road

There was a huge protest and after that they stopped.

[watashi75]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Does it help if I tell you that traffic never stops on the roads so it is just a matter of chance if one risk life before Watashi75's car or a truck and people prefer a car to a truck.

So are you saying that pedestrians have a right to jaywalk? So you mean we cannot have laws unless the infrastructure is present? Isn't it like saying to pardon criminals because there are not enough space in jails?

Originally Posted by amitk26

The point is people do not cultivate habit of using the infrastructure if it is not there everywhere and usable. If I have to cultivate habit of risking my limbs 99% of times I cross the road it is expected that I will take same or lesser risk in other 1% scenario even if infrastructure is available.

This logic beats me. There are well defined pedestrian rules in all developed countries. So why not for Indians?

[prince_pervez]

Originally Posted by watashi75

So are you saying that pedestrians have a right to jaywalk? So you mean we cannot have laws unless the infrastructure is present? Isn't it like saying to pardon criminals because there are not enough space in jails?


This logic beats me. There are well defined pedestrian rules in all developed countries. So why not for Indians?

If we don't have infrastructure for pedestrians, they would demand it when start getting fined for jaywalking.
So once they get the infrastructure, they'd better use it, else they could fined or hurt. If they get hurt, the motorist should not be blamed coz the jaywalker was not supposed to be there anyway. But, is this setup possible in India ? I mean, if not the law, the crowd will definitely pounce on the motorist. So I have my doubts.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by watashi75

So are you saying that pedestrians have a right to jaywalk? So you mean we cannot have laws unless the infrastructure is present? Isn't it like saying to pardon criminals because there are not enough space in jails?


This logic beats me. There are well defined pedestrian rules in all developed countries. So why not for Indians?

For your kind information law on Jaywalking exists and Bangalore traffic police tried it from time to time to implement it on most popular street ( before metro construction) and fine was 100 Rs.

But some how you are not getting the point that for defining jaywalking you need to have definition of pedestrian space in which it is legal to walk so that it can be defined where it is not legal to walk.

Jaywalking is different from walking because person is crossing the boundary defined for pedestrians ( similar to crossing yellow line).

Now until and unless pedestrian space is defined no law can be enforced .

As for US laws also in absence of markings first right of road use belongs to pedesterian crossing the road and that is why there cars stop for letting people cross even without zebra on interior roads which are not marked.

For enforcing any law and making it a habit it is not good enough to construct infrastructure and mark the roads near to Rajbhavan of state capital or some touristy area but it has to be done at the place where most people walk.

[sriku]

Originally Posted by amitk26

May I ask if you walk sometime which you must being a human being
I will urge you once to keep the discussion civil, non-sarcastic and respectable.
(1) How long exactly do you wait on zebra crossing for traffic to stop ? If you wait does it ever stop ?
Yes it does, I only cross at signals. When I find myself away from one, I walk toward the signal and cross perpendicular to the road, not diagonally or outside the zebra crossing. I'm not alone in this, it's defensive walking...similar to defensive driving in principle.

What do you do if you find Auto , bikes and cars positioning themselves haphazardly on the crossing and inching forward to occupy every single centimeter left before bumper of next vehicle.
I signal to the vehicle driver/rider to allow me to cross. With a smile and a raised thumb to thank them for their consideration. It works for me.

(2) If you have ever visited Bangalore how exactly you crossed major junctions where neither there is any footpath nor a crossing ?
Cannot comment, only biked/drove in B'lore. You know best about your own city, you may be correct, or not.
(3) On most of the signals left turn is free which is extramly dangerous as free left traffic continue sand force people to cross risking their life.
At most of such free lefts, there is usually a signal before and after the left turn. Road crossing can be achieved safely at these locations. Alternatively pedestrians could use existing subway's, foot over bridges etc. In major intersections these are usually present in our cities.
Under the above circumstances any kind of walking is jaywalking.
It is still unacceptable. The consequences, loss of life and serious injury, monetary loss are all deterrents that should be considered.
To top all this Bangalore traffic police started a campaign to fine jaywalkers on brigade road in 2001 , My friend payed 100 Rs fine this was when half of this narrow lane was being used as payed parking by BBMP and there is absolutely no space to walk on one side of the road and then traffic never stops on This road


There was a huge protest and after that they stopped.

As I said before, I'm not debating the fact that our administrators are inept, policies are useless, civic infrastructure poor etc. I'm not interested in these failures, what I am very interested in are the failures of judgement that people exercise while crossing busy roads. These are all fundamentally inconsiderate to motorists, and fellow pedestrians who do follow the rules. Any further attempt at justifying them will only result in a shouting match, which I am definitely not interested in. I wish you can consider my opinion and accept it as my own, and not a counter argument to yours.

Cheers,

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by watashi75

In Hyderabad, there are a number of pedestrian overbridges built with tax payer's money. In spite of that people still cross the roads weaving dangerously through traffic. And most often people get rear ended trying to avoid hitting pedestrians. So it is not always that pedestrians don't have any options other than to jaywalk.

I am all for driver education and pedestrian education. But when they are not effective it is time to resort to sterner measures.

This is true everywhere. I love in Bombay, and frequently use the Western Express Highway. Just after the domestic airport, they've built a crossover bridge for the slums on either side and planned to do away with the signal currently used for the same purpose.
Do the residents use the bridge? Of course not. The signal for the residents remains, on one of the busiest roads in Bombay. So you have to come to a complete stop and wait for the pedestrians to cross, when they've built a crossover bridge less than 100ft away.

[NFS2024]

Originally Posted by amitk26

For example as per US DMV rules you get 7 points ( loss of license) if you pass a stopped school bus no matter where it is. It is for safety of children who tend to run in all directions after getting down.

Let us not talk about a utopian world. We are Indians and we are good only in some aspects of our life.

Rest I do not think will change for for a long time to come in this country because it is a systemic and deep rooted problem.

[mobike008]

It's easy to talk about imposing fines for jaywalkers. Has someone realize the enormity of that task? It requires a special police to enforce that rule and knowing Indian mentality, each fine will turn out to be a wordy duel between the jaywalker and policeman, even if it's implemented.

I see many people in india who drive cars get out of minor fines by bringing in their influential references ( which may or may not exist), so i expect the same to happen with jaywalkers ( though not every one of them may not have influential references since they dont even own a car but these days you never know)

The simple fact remains, provide infrastructure ( broad foothpaths, FOB's at all crucial junctions) for pedestrians and then talk about fines. And, we also know that at whatever speed you improve the infrastructure the population has already taken an even longer leap. So it's like a loop that'll not end so fast. We need to recognize the fact that ours is a developing nation and we are doing all we can to improve the infrastructure ( i can vouch for what's happening in my city) but, the problem of jaywalking being so insignificant compared to other traffic related menace like speeding, drunk driving etc has not come to a stage for even to be on a priority list and as far as i can guess it will not come for another 5-10 years atleast.

Moreover, the definition of jaywalking itself is un-clear ( atleast to the common public- a jaywalker will simply retort, i was crossing the street, do you call that jaywalking, what's your answer?) so there is hardly anything you can do to enforce a rule like that.

Till then Jay-Walkers rule

[sriku]

Originally Posted by ghostrider

This is true everywhere. I love in Bombay, and frequently use the Western Express Highway.

How coincidental, I love in Bombay too Sorry, couldn't resist that!

Seriously though, the Western Express highway has improved greatly over the last few years. The new flyovers are a boon, if only pedestrian underpasses and raised bridges were more numerous, we'd zip down to Dahisar from Bandra without incident. However, I have a feeling we're expecting too much too soon from the authorities.

Cheers,

[RX135]

Originally Posted by sriku

As I said before, I'm not debating the fact that our administrators are inept, policies are useless, civic infrastructure poor etc.

+ We Indians have least civic sense. Unfortunate but true!

[hillram]

I really dont think that we can ban Jaywalking considering the humungous population that we have and in that lot the pedestrians are even more.
I myself slow down at Zebra crossing most of the times,but sometimes i see pedestrians waving to cross even when my car is a mile away and there is nothing between them and my car..then i dont brake until necessary.

[gostel]

I am largely a pedestrian and only part-time motorist. I cannot imagine myself climbing tall bridges or walking miles to hunt for a zebra. But imposing fines is a nice method to "teach" people to behave themselves on the road. There are many people who cross the roads with no consideration for even their own safety. Such people deserve to be fined. Motorists are no angels either; they block the zebra crossings at all traffic signals, without exception. They should be fined as well. In Mumbai the cops have begun to fine jay-walkers. I hope they also fine the zebra squatters.